@Didjcripey - It was your thread & sentiment that you expressed that inspired this one...I was hoping it might act a springboard to discussion & demonstrations as to how one might approach a PB style tone (Diggs already had his Butter inspired players thread)...rather than a PB gear thread...that element appears to have been forced on me...OK "forced" might be too strong, I haven't shied away from it exactly ;-), but it would be nice to get back on track... ---------- www.myspace.com/markburness
@chromaticblues: I don't happen to like the harp tone on "Too Many Drivers" either, but I doubt if PB is using a Twin. A Twin has a lot of headroom and is a pretty clean amp. The tone on TMD is anything but clean.
One CAN get that sort of tone from a Super, but the SR can be pretty versatile. If you listen to the Woodstock vids where PB is clearly using a SR the tone is great. Check it out:
Now one can alter the tone of a SR dramatically by fooling with the tone controls.
Btw,I happen to be of the opinion that the combination of a 545 and a SR is real symbiosis. I had a SR for a while and never got a sound from it that I really liked until I started using it with a 545. A great match IMHO. i don't understand how you can say you don't like the particular tone of this combination because, depending on what channel you use and how you set the controls, you can get quite a variety of tones from a 545 and a Super. A Twin Reverb is an entirely different animal and cannot be lumped together in the same sonic category with a Super. A Twin and a Super are NOT similar amps.
Last Edited by on Nov 05, 2011 12:38 PM
Jeez...more gear talk! Oh well, if I have to...;-)
@Hyvj - A twin & SR share the same preamp circuit, the differences are in the output section...sure this makes a difference, especially when you hear the 2 side by side, but in isolation, in recordings (where db and air wave pushed by the speaker are pretty moot) it's not exactly night & day. The twin is a little tighter due to the SS rectifier & big power supply, a little less "fast" & rounder response wise...beyond that differences are specific to individual amps (e.g. either model can have a variance in plate voltage of around 120vdc depending on year, which makes a HUGE difference in the tone of individual amps). I don't doubt for a minute that you have tried models of each and have found a preference, I dont mean to imply that you don't know what you are talking about, just my experience of trying numerous models of both amps.
I admit that, like Chromaticblues, I have a preference for the PBBB recorded tone, just because compared to most other PB amplified recordings, the tone & EQ aren't so skewed, it's just a good, regular, round, amplified tone ("Lost Sessions" are a bit nasal, mid scooped, sweeter envelope but seem to push the higher harmonics more, "In My Own Dream" & onwards seem to me to be a little skinnied up over PBBB, less nasal than "Lost sessions", more of a bright, crisp metallic edge, more "zing", less "quack" than "Lost Sessions"?
Getting back to PB tone, studying pics & video, I'm wondering if a hangover from his flute playing days doesn't play a part? Most guys when they play harp wrap their lips around the instrument, the inside of their lips against the covers. This is relatively unusual for a blown instrument (because they often fill with drool), Butter looks like his bottom lip rests with the outside against the harp...he has a wide set jaw (which probably has an impact in itself) it's hard to know for sure?
This technique was shown to me by excellent UK harp player Laurie Garman (another player that can demonstrate the PB style, tangible "column of air" that makes the harp sound like it's directly connected to his diaphragm), but at the time I just thought it was a trick to play drier & didn't equate it to Butter specifically, now I wonder...? ---------- www.myspace.com/markburness
Last Edited by on Nov 05, 2011 6:02 PM
@hvyj Thats fine that you don't agree with me. That vid proves my point as far as I'm concerned. AS far as you explaining the difference between amplifiers to me is just funny! Thanks anyway!
@hvyj, - Yes I shamelessly asked to sit in numerous times and got to play with Canned Heat, Johnny Shines (after the show) and numerous others over the years. Met some great people and had fun playing onstage in Copenhagen and Barcelona in Europe last year, - and in New Orleans recently. (see youtube channel for some of my misadventures - cahnnel- noams210) It has even led to regular gigs and band connections over the years. What's obnoxious IMO is playing out loud while the band is playing, or jumping on a mic un-invited. Usually I would talk to the band leader between sets- ocassionally hold the harp up in mid song briefly, with my eyebrows raised- believe it or not, it worked out for some good jams a number of times. People had no obligation to invite me up and I was not offended if they didn't. Certainly MIke Bloomfield did not owe me a thing. HIs attitude just surprised me a little, as it wasn't what I was used to. I'm sure he had been subjected to many a fool who though they could play harp but had not a clue about even listening to what others on stage where playing. (see email by James Hoskins to me below)
re. Bloomfield - I got this email about my Bloomfield story from James Hoskins
--your post on Bloomfield, bothered me a little, not sure why he reacted that way to you, but wasn't at all what I saw when I saw him. Very accessible, friendly, and on his solo gigs furnishing instruments and dragging people up on stage almost against their will. I saw him hand his guitar to a perfect stranger and sit down at the piano, invite up some terrible harp players and have various audience members up singing. He was very kind and seemed to be having a ball doing it. I do know like many of his Chicago buddies he didn't like 'hippies' so much. Also everybody can have a bad moment? But generally speaking Mike was a sweet guy. ----
@Dirty Deck - Last Waltz tales when I get more time to post ----------
Last Edited by on Nov 05, 2011 6:43 PM
I'd love to know what PB was using on the Muddy Waters Woodstock album. I'd bet 100 to 1 that he was using a Green bullet or other non-dynamic mic, OR that he was using a much smaller amp--a Champ, perhaps. His sound on that album was NOT the sound I heard him use live. It was much more overdriven.
It's important to recognize--since this point hasn't been made in this long thread--that players often use different rigs (amps/mics) when recording than when playing live. I'm unusual in that respect in using the same stuff in both contexts, and miking my relatively underpowered amps when playing live.
I'm pretty sure I read that Clapton played "Strange Brew" on DISRAELI GEARS on a Champ. Live, of course, he played through Marshall Stacks.
I was surprised, the first time I saw PB live at the old Tramps in NYC, that he was playing through two Twins. That's a lot of firepower. Danny Draher was on guitar and, I think, Crusher Green or Ola Dixon on drums. Power players themselves--but PB was pretty loud. Two silverface Twins in a smallish ground-floor room is loud.
The one time I recorded on a silverface Deluxe with a Shure dynamic mic, I came closer to the PB sound on "Too Many Drivers" than I'd ever come before that.
I had a blackface Super many years ago. Good amp, but not ideal for me. Too clean.
Last Edited by on Nov 05, 2011 7:23 PM
Woodstock clip kicks @$$! Great tone, thanks! I am listening through great headphones, and really dig this tone compared to some of the real edgy and bright stuff he used on some recordings. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas VHT Special 6 Mods
@Kudzurunner - It can be very difficult to differentiate an overdriven single-ended amp (champ) from a big fixed bias push-pull amp (like a big tolex Fender) in recordings (I've engineered sessions with both, alternative takes on same track, same artist, same day - you better keep good notes otherwise it's a real job to sort them out afterwards!)...they often break up in fairly similar way (lots of cut-off, crossover distortion). To me Woodstock album doesn't sound so different from the Last Waltz? The front of the notes are very crisp, tight & punchy, something that is often lost with a S-E amp like a champ, when overdriven. But my opening sentence is the one to pay most attention to...very hard to tell the difference. I certainly wouldn't want to put money on it.
I'm personally an advocate of using smaller amps for recording, but I'm not sure if that was a practice typical of Butterfield?
Compare to this clip from '77-ish?
...& this one from '79?
---------- www.myspace.com/markburness
Last Edited by on Nov 06, 2011 5:01 AM
5F6H - The big question though Mark is whether Butterfield is plugged into one of those tolex Fender amps or the tweed Fender amp behind him of course? lol
