I usually don't like jazz. At least not the hardcore, pure jazz. To my ear it just sounds like some musicians randomly noodling on stage individually, but I like some music that I THINK is jazz....Maybe not.
Is a lot of Santana's music jazz? Surely "Light My Fire" by The Doors is jazz isn't it? A couple of weeks ago, Frosty posted his version of "Light My Fire" and since then, I've been putting a backing track together. I'm using the original arangement.
As I was putting it together, I was amazed at how the guitar accompaniment sounds like incoherent random notes jumping octaves indiscriminantly, but when played with the other instruments, all the pieces of the puzzle come together BEAUTIFULLY. (You can listen and mute instruments here.) I was thinking anybody who writes jazz has to be a genius.
So, all this got me wondering: What is jazz? Blues can be defined by chord progression, rhythm, etc. How do you define jazz?
Also, if anybody can direct me to sheet music for the organ accompaniment during the guitar solo, I'd appreciate it. That's all I'm lacking. I have the rest, including drums.
Last Edited by on Oct 17, 2011 1:06 PM
I admire and respect the intellectual quality of jazz, but I USUALLY (meaning "not always") don't like the sound of it.
"Man, if you gotta ask you'll never know" - Louis Armstrong I don't find that to be true with blues, because it can be defined in the terms I alluded to above. But jazz...I've heard something said like, "I don't know what porn is, but I know it when I see it." Right now, that statement reflects how I stand with jazz...Except I recognize that I could very well be wrong when I think I hear it. For example, "Light My Fire" (the instrumental parts) sound like jazz to me. So does some Santana, whom I like.
So, I guess that out of simple idle curiosity: Do I like some jazz or don't I? That's why I would care. That, and simply to be able to define jazz. (Aren't there things in the world that you don't like, but find fascinating and would like to know more about? Maybe a weird animal or a cult or whatever?)
LOL! It never dawned on me to Google "What is jazz?" That's out of character for me. I Google everything. Google is my friend. I'll see what turns up.
Last Edited by on Oct 17, 2011 2:32 PM
There are different categories of jazz. Hard Bop and Soul Jazz are often playable on diatonic harp w/o OBs and have very accessible grooves and chord changes that are not complex. These styles of jazz are not abstract and don't sound like "noodling."
"Equinox" by John Coltrane is a very cool minor key blues jazz tune that's playable in 4th position. "Cristo Redentor" and "Afro Blue" and "Chitins Con Carne" are minor key blues jazz tunes that are playable on diatonic harp in 3rd, 4th or 5th positions. Some of the Miles Davis tunes on the KIND OF BLUE album are playable on diatonic in 2d or 3rd positions and "Jean Pierre" is a funky jazz tune from the WE WANT MILES album that's playable on diatonic, 2d position. "St. Thomas" is a calypso sounding jazz tune by Sonny Rollins that lays out perfectly in 1st position. There are some Eddie Harris tunes that have very cool grooves and are playable in 2d or 3rd positions. Same with some of Herbie Hancock's stuff.
None of these tunes have complex chord changes and all have a groove and are easily playable on diatonic. BUT to play them you have to play NOTES, not blues riffs/licks. Also, you can't be tied to only I IV V progressions. But you can easily play this sort of jazz on diatonic because you have the notes you need on the instrument.
"Light My Fire" is rock. But some of Santana's stuff and certain Hendrix stuff borders on jazz. Have you ever heard Patrica Barber's jazz version of the Beatles tune, "Norwegian Wood" from her A FORTNIGHT IN FRANCE album? If not, check it out. Very cool. Btw, that tune is payable on a diatonic in 2d position.
SO....there are different KINDS of jazz, some of which are easily playable on diatonic w/o OBs. Traditional jazz tends to have chord changes that are very complex and may sound more like "noodling." Soul Jazz and Hard Bop sound more like blues and/or R&B. "Jazz" encompasses a lot of different styles.
Last Edited by on Oct 17, 2011 3:32 PM
OK, I Googled. Nearly all of the pages I viewed pretty much said. "Forget it, man. You can't define it." They did mention certain elements of jazz, but the listing of those elements was not satisfying because the element they listed are in no way unique to jazz.
I found one good site, though. (Click.) That's too much for me to read and grasp, right now, but scanning through that site and reading some of the history of jazz, I would say that the highly improvisational nature of jazz and/or the complexity of the chords and a lot of large intervals is what makes jazz "jazz." A lot of the other pages stated that jazz is always changing. It reinvents itself every ten years. It takes, and always has taken a lot of influence from other genres.
I guess a good, brief definition turns out to be: If it sounds like jazz, it's jazz. Bundling all this together, I would contend that "Light My Fire" is jazz. Not so sure about Santana....I guess not.
--You posted while I was typing.-- :) I see we disagree about "Light My Fire." In my OP, clik on the link "here" and listen to the organ and guitar separately...And together. Does that sway you toward my side? (Still not sure about Santana.)
I read somewhere that the Doors loosely used John Coltrain's "My Favorite Things" to influence their instrumentals on "Light My Fire." I don't hear it.
Last Edited by on Oct 17, 2011 3:44 PM
I know what jazz sounds like, usually :) I just don't know how to define it.
All except the last vid are old school stuff. As I quoted earlier, jazz reinvents itself every ten years. But the stuff in the 3rd, 5thand 6th videos is still around. That's the kind of stuff that sounds like noodling to me. All I liked about the one with Buddy Rich is Buddy Rich.
The 1st video contained a lot of big band swing. I'm not so sure swing is jazz, because it is very structured and tightly arranged. (I know swing was derived from jazz.)
The 4th vid is blues.
I could listen to the one with Dizzy, I guess.
The 2nd one, 7th one and last one were fine. They contained melodies you could hum.
Jazz is not limited to accoustic instruments, and there are many styles within jazz. We'll agree to disagree on "Light My Fire." I'd call it jazz because it fits a lot of the criteria given in the link I posted above: It contains plenty of tall chords, is full of interval jumps of an octave, was written as an improvisational number, uses a lot of triplets (though triplets aren't the main construct of the song, and it just has a certain feel. (Mind you, I'm talking mainly about the instrumental section.)
Last Edited by on Oct 17, 2011 5:27 PM
"Don't confuse improvisation with jazz. Blues and rock also have improvisational aspects"
Oh, yes. I'm well aware of that, but improv is a huge element of jazz.
I could handle those, except Eddy Harris got stuck on the same riff for too long. That lady singing was alright, too..But TEN MINUTES??!! (I couldn't play it all anyway. The vid kept hanging.) To me, she doesn't sound like jazz.
I feel compelled to say what I've said several times before: I will debate an issue even when I'm well aware I could be wrong. I find it an effecient way to learn. Thanks to Timeistight simply saying, "Google it", I'm already smarter. :)
Last Edited by on Oct 17, 2011 5:45 PM
The version of "Norwegian Wood" on the FORTNIGHT IN FRANCE album is punchier than the version on the vid, which I agree drags out a little--but gets pretty jazzy when the guitarist takes his solo. The version on the album is really cool and has much less vocalizing.
All these tunes are playable on diatonic w/o OBs. Personally, I really like Coltrane's "Equinox" and Mike Stern's version of "Jean Pierre." Stern was the guitar player on the WE WANT MILES album which has the original "Jean Pierre." Cool stuff, I think.
Not all jazz has a melody you can hum. Even though you don't like a certain subset you might like other subsets!
Jazz went through different periods much like classical music. Ya got, Ragtime, New Orleans stuff, swing, Bebop, scat singing, vocal jazz, Cool Jazz, Hard bop, Latin jazz, free jazz, jazz fusion, smooth jazz, & even jazz metal is out there, lol. Miles Davis & John Coltrane, for example, have albums that touch a few of the subsets. Which is why it's possible to love one Coltrane or Davis album & not be able to listen to another, haha.
Sometimes jazz has re-occurring themes (heads) and other times the entire band seems to all be playing a different feeling/emotion at the same time and other times it feels like elevator music.
While Light My Fire may not be jazz that does not mean the solos are not jazz influenced which is probable.
I liked the intro to Ken Burns' ten-part documentary on Jazz timeistight, hadn't seen it before.
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~Ryan
"I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window." - Steven Wright
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
OK, the general concensus here is that LMF is not jazz. It has elements of jazz and has a kind of a jazzy feel. Why isn't it jazz? Surely it's not simply because it's done by a rock band. (A technical answer might help me better understand what jazz is...and isn't......without having to read that big ol' long page I posted...for now.)
Last Edited by on Oct 17, 2011 6:50 PM
Of course "Light My Fire" is Jazz! If an inspid tune like "My Favorite Things" is jazz--or can be jazz--then "Light My Fire" is, or can be, jazz.
Jazz isn't a set of compositions. It's a way of swinging, a way of bluesing, a way of reharmonizing, and a way of allowing major individuality in its soloists while also maintaining a group cohesion.
Pretty much any song can be jazzed. That is how American jazz has worked! These days, contemporary jazz players are jazzing funk tunes from the 70s, Beatles tunes, TV theme songs like "The Flintstones."
Jazz is a canon of standards, but it's also a process, a way of revising pop songs.
Adam, your answer is confusing. It implies ANY song CAN be jazz, therefore LMF is or can be. The way it's played by the Doors...IS it or is it not?
hvyi, I can't give the names of chords for examples because I don't know the names. But I do know that it contains a lot of "tall" chords and that the song has more accidentals than the Dallas freeways.
Last Edited by on Oct 17, 2011 8:18 PM
Before it was recorded, the solos were improvised at every performance. The recording was improvised. Once it became a hit, they played it at concerts pretty close to the way people came to know it, but still with a little improvisation.
Swing? If you mean swung eight notes, I don't notice that in what I know are jazz songs. If you mean swung with that triplet feel, you're right. There are triplets only here and there in the song. Is that triplet feel predominant/defining in jazz-the way swung eights and the twelve bar define blues? --Just asking. I don't know.
("Very little improvisation" is why I differentiate jazz from swing.)
I don't care if it's jazz or not. I'm not emotionally attached to the label of jazz or rock. It's just that I was intrigued by the arrangement while I was making a midi out of it, and now I'm trying to figure out if it is or if it's not. Just curiosity-academic-educational-whatever.
I believe it is, and I don't care if I'm wrong or right. Most of you say it isn't, but I haven't read a convincing argument. The one that came closest was the concise reply, "Chord structure." A little more detail explaining the difference between jazz chord structure and Light My Fire chord structure might do the trick.
Adam said it's jazz, but I didn't jump up and down screaming, I TOLD YOU SO, I TOLD YOU SO!!" No, I even questioned his answer that upheld my tentative view because it didn't convince me, either.
I think the biggest obstacle to resolving this is that jazz is hard to define. Could it also be that there are jazz lovers on this thread that subconciousely don't want their territory stepped on by a rock band?
Sorry, folks. Sometimes I get hung up in these silly quests for useless knowledge only for knowledge's sake. :)
Last Edited by on Oct 17, 2011 10:09 PM
I wasn't saying that the Doors' version of LMF was jazz. I didn't listen to it; I haven't listened to it in years. My memory is that it didn't swing. I was speaking to the general issue: given the long history of jazz taking popular (and sacred) music of all varieties and transforming it INTO jazz, it's well-nigh impossible to rule out any particular song in advance as being "not jazz." The operative word is SONG, not PERFORMANCE.
Many rock groups have been influenced by jazz, and many during the Sixties were especially influenced by jazz. Cream, for example. The Allman Brothers, later on. But that's not the same thing as playing jazz, and I never suggested it was. I've said nothing preposterous so far.
I heard an interview years back where Ray Manzarek said that he lifted the prominent figure for the organ part of "Light my fire" directly from a John Coltrane tune. I never would have guessed it even though it's from one of my favorite LPs. It sounds more like something borrowed from a classical tune.
Light my fire is a rock number by most peoples account but as you have already seen Jazz is not always neatly defined. I'll bet that Cassandra Wilson could cripple somebody with her version of that tune.
For me the best rock was always blues based. All of the best musicians who made rock and roll interesting got their very best results from reaching down deep into the black music thing, Blues, jazz, whatever you want to call it. The best musicians and songwriters are very promiscuous and have slept in many a bed not their own.
Last Edited by on Oct 18, 2011 6:12 AM
Amazing work! I'd call that jazz--jazz singing--but the arrangement is rock-ish, which was the going thing back then. Jazz singers are identified AS jazz singers in part because they swing--they phrase in interesting, fluid relation to the beat--; in part because they re-harmonize the song as they go (choosing alternate notes for the melody that imply more adventurous harmonies); and in part because they play with the timbral properties of their voices, treating their voices like horns (roughening, lengthening notes, swooping, gliding).
These are general points, but it's always finally the specifics that matter. This performance makes me disinclined to argue about whether it's jazz, pop, or rock. "There's good music and bad music," a wise man once said. I think this is good music.
Great topic. Reading through all the responses just reinforced for me what my gut feeling was, which is, it's so hard to concretely, objectively define genres and which ones certain songs fit into, that why even bother is the operative phrase for me. As I was thinking and typing this, kudzu came up with this gem:
"This performance makes me disinclined to argue about whether it's jazz, pop, or rock. "There's good music and bad music," a wise man once said. I think this is good music."
That about sums it up to me, though I agree that the discussion can be enlightening, so no need to apologize.
This dicussion reminds me of the problems I have with the Rock and Roll HOF. When I went there, I remember thinking why is this act here? He/she/they might be great entertainers, but they ain't rock and roll. Which begs the question, well what is rock and roll? And we're off to the races again.
I settled on ah, screw it, in...out who cares, just enjoy the place as a museum, with some great artifacts that stir great memories and tell great stories.
But hey, this thread was a great read, with some cool embedded YTs to check out....so kudos for that.
Yeah, speaking of musical genres and designations it's funny how some innovator somewhere always finds a way to break out of his assigned role as a " ____ musician" (fill in the blank) and then you know you are always going to see a segment of the public just flip out and despise his new music, but then 30, 40 years later; the present day counterpart to the guy who hated Miles' or Muddy's new sound will reach up on his shelf, pull down the same music and say to his friend - "now this is the REAL shit".
billie holliday was called a jazz singer and was backed by a jazz band-but call it what you want,her voice was 100% blues IMHO my point being what others perceive as jazz I definitely hear blues
Last Edited by on Oct 18, 2011 11:23 AM
He hated the word "jazz". To him, it meant nigger music. He always wanted to move forward and break this particular mold, which he did, redirecting the course of music about 3 or 4 times. Each time he would alienate those listeners that wanted to keep him boxed in. One dude came up to him and said "Miles. I love your music, but this new stuff you're playing. I just can't get into it". "I'm supposed to wait for you?" was Miles reply.
His conclusion was that all music was folk music, as it originated from folks - white, black, yellow, gypsy, african, whatever.
He felt the term "jazz" was being used by record companies and record stores in order to have a big section of releases that the public would gravitate towards, as the general public needs to be told stuff.
So, he found the term limiting when relating to music.
Billie Holiday is widely regarded as one of the musicians (who happened to be a singer) that, with collaborators such as Lester young, re-defined jazz phrasing, moving away from swing and into what was to become bebop and later cool.
for anybody who has read angelas ashes by frank mccourt,he tells of going to a blind neighbors house to listen to billie holliday on short wave in the late 40s
I've been listening to a lot of The Doors music. At this point, I'm not sure what to call it; jazz, rock, circus sacred mystery what? What I do know is that it is strange.
