hvyj
1840 posts
Oct 08, 2011
1:15 PM
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Played a gig last night with my regular blues band. The guitar player was hot--really energized and truly inspired and the drummer was really on, too. We are a highly improvisational ensemble, with general arrangements, but the order, length and nature of the solos is always different.
The guitar player was playing brilliantly, but taking most of the fills and most of the solo space (we usually swap extended solos). I played certain heads and got a few extended solos, but not my usual share. And as far as fills were concerned, I played a few, but the guitar player was playing so well that for the most part I just stayed out of his way. Frankly, the guitar player was playing so well i sort of felt like i was being left in the dust, unable to keep up. So i laid out more than i played.
At the end of the night, i wasn't feeling that good about my performance. The drummer came up and told me I'd played really well. i thought he was just being nice. A musician in the audience came up and told me I sounded really great. I thought he was just being polite. Then after 2 other musicians in the audience came up and and made a point of telling me the same thing, i finally figured out what happened. By NOT playing very much when i had nothing to add or when there was no space, and letting the music happen around me until i was given a little solo space every now and then, I made a a more significant musical contribution than if I had been playing my usual share. What i did play fit pretty well, but I was laying out most of the night.
The band was happy with me, the knowledgeable musicians in the audience were very favorably impressed and the club paid us a little more than the agreed price. By the time I'd packed up my gear and loaded out, I was feeling a lot better about the gig.
i guess the moral of the story is that sometimes what you DON'T play is more important than what you do play. After all, any performance should be about THE MUSIC, not the harmonica.
Last Edited by on Oct 08, 2011 1:20 PM
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orphan
87 posts
Oct 08, 2011
5:03 PM
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Very well put. Very important moral of the story. Congratulations on your excellent performance last night. Wish I had been there!
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Rick Shanks
118 posts
Oct 08, 2011
5:22 PM
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Well done hvyj. Often(for me)keeping the inner self-talk from 'overplaying' when in a similar situation is of equal importance in order to hold back for the right reasons!
I agree it is so much more satifying to reflect on a gig and feel good about less notes or solos played...than to feel bad about having played too much.
It has to be about the group sound and the song at hand.
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KiwiRick
http://www.richardshanksart.com
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Greg Heumann
1295 posts
Oct 08, 2011
5:51 PM
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A good lesson for all! Way to go.
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/Greg
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walterharp
720 posts
Oct 08, 2011
6:08 PM
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maybe you needed to be the brooding personality with the pent up emotion just waiting to get out :-)
lucky there were those there to notice your contribution, in most cases the loudest most obvious player putting out all the notes would get all the attention.. so nice that there was a crowd actually listening.
better than when i got off and had an audience member say i was pretty good and then ask if harmonicas had "actual notes"
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gene
946 posts
Oct 08, 2011
6:11 PM
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Will this permanantly influence the way you play?
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hvyj
1841 posts
Oct 08, 2011
8:29 PM
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Well, that's how I play anyway. If I don't have anything good to contribute, I lay out. I pick my spots. So, that part of it is sort of business as usual for me.
But what may not have come through from my OP is the extent to which I was feeling really inadequate at the end of the gig. I'm used to being given plenty of room to stretch out as a featured soloist, but I just couldn't come up with hardly anything to match what the guitar player was putting out. So we weren't swapping solos all night like we usually do, and I thought I had screwed up pretty badly by not being able to hold up my end.
As it eventually turned out, i guess it gave me renewed confidence in my ability to know when to shut up and just not play. But while the gig was going on, I felt like I was in over my head most of the night.
Btw, what the guitar player was playing aesthetically brilliant and technically flawless. He was not being loud and overbearing. He was just playing so well that I literally could not keep up or produce anything that was musically complimentary to what he was putting out. The few solos I took were fine, but for the overwhelming most part what i was playing was just not in the same league as what the guitar player was doing, so I laid out a lot. The drummer was really on his game last night, too and actually did quite a bit to make both the guitar player and me (when I did play) sound good.
Last Edited by on Oct 09, 2011 3:11 AM
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jbone
654 posts
Oct 08, 2011
11:47 PM
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in a bigger sense than a single chord progression, playing is much about building tension and then releasing it. that's what you did last night , not on every song or in every space. but what you did was more noticeable for that. space is certainly part of the music over all.
yesterday for me was a big day, we played on cherry Street at King Biscuit blues Fest. i got to play with Jolene, my wife and partner, and also with a bud from iowa and another from missouri, guys i rarely get to see and almost never jam with. Jo and i did plenty good, the other guys were icing on the cake. playing with guys who do different material and in different ways than i'm used to really challenged me quite a bit. i think i rose to the occasions pretty well and i got to do some stuff i seldom have an opportunity to do, which seemed to come out pretty well. since this was all on the street it was sometimes hard to tell. one minute there would be nobody watching, the next there'd be a dozen spectators!
i have definitely experienced nights where i thought i sucked badly and had people come over and give compliments at the end of a night. it's a good indicator that we're learning not only some good chops but good timing as well- whether we know it or not sometimes!
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
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barbequebob
1763 posts
Oct 09, 2011
10:51 AM
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Overplaying is the single EASIEST thing to do and underplaying is an art to itself, and to do that, you HAVE to leave space open, use dynamics, and allow the tension to build on its own WITHOUT FORCING IT TO HAPPEN, and it's amazing how many players of all instruments just don't get it at all and try to throw the whole kitchen sink of every lick and technique they know how to play and that can get old quick and saying more with less, which is finally something here you see for yourself, also depends on allow THE GROOVE TO DO THE DRIVING, and not FORCING IT to happen. Hat's off to you on that. More musicians need to learn this and usually younger musicians don't deal well with that, tho I've met older musicians who don't as well and it takes quite a learning curve to understand how to use space to make a great musicial statement.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Oct 09, 2011 10:52 AM
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7LimitJI
554 posts
Oct 09, 2011
2:29 PM
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Less IS more.
It takes confidence though!
I found the band plays at its best when the stage volume is low and everyone can hear, and is listening to each other.
The groove and the dynamics just happen then.
The most important note in any scale is silence.
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The Pentatonics Myspace
Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
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LittleBubba
112 posts
Oct 10, 2011
10:06 AM
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I've always thought that there was something inherently humorous about the fact that a harper can make a band sound better by not playing. I've done it.
There are limits to abstention if you want to have fun though.
I was asked to join an estabilshed ZZTop tribute band a few years ago, and after I spent a couple months learning tracks off CDs, and subjecting myself to some great early tunes, I discovered that it was an exercise in standing around for 16 bars doing nothing, then jumping in for a short lead and then going back to picking my nose. There was something very unmusical (formulaic) about it, even though I loved the harp parts on the CDs. I backed out of the agreement before the first rehearsal, and the bandleader understood perfectly.
Last Edited by on Oct 10, 2011 10:08 AM
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MrVerylongusername
1983 posts
Oct 10, 2011
10:29 AM
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Glad I'm not the only one who finds this vaguely ridiculous - I mean, OK less can be more, fair enough! but take it to the logical conclusion and you might as well not be there.
If you can't complement the band by your presence then your presence is pointless. If the band DO want you there, but there's no space for you, then go back to the rehearsal room and re-arrange the songs so there's something for you to do.
It's not just about taking solos.
If there was someone in my band that didn't sing and sat out of half the set, they'd get half the money or be looking for another band.
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tmf714
829 posts
Oct 10, 2011
10:39 AM
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@MVLUN-Agreed-maybe be the downside of playing with "college trained musicians" -the ability to impovise is one thing-if the band wom't let you add those improvisations to the music,it's an exercise in futility.
Last Edited by on Oct 10, 2011 11:19 AM
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LittleBubba
113 posts
Oct 10, 2011
11:02 AM
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good points, Mrverylongus....., and it isn't always about how much you play, but about HOW you play. Playing behind the vocals is part of the art, and we often play too loud, or too busily. The whole subject cannot be oversimplified; it's about finesse and musical sense.
Personally, I've always enjoyed the comping and the accents--even guitar line doubling- as much or more than the solos (maybe it's my trumpet background) ; soloing is over-rated, but people (including other musicians) want to hear it. They sometimes feel short-changed when they don't get enough harp solos.
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hvyj
1845 posts
Oct 10, 2011
1:20 PM
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When you play regularly with musicians who are a lot better than you are, there will inevitably be times when the flight altitude of the band gets higher than you are able to reach. This doesn't happen all the time, but when it does, I try not to do anything to bring the performance down. And if that means I have to lay out sometimes, I'm perfectly content to shut up, stand back and enjoy the flight.
i learn a lot playing with musicians of this caliber. They regularly make me sound pretty good and more often than not they give me extended space to play. You know, they actually like my playing. But they play so much better than I can that sometimes the most valuable contribution I can make is simply to stay out of their way, and I'm okay with that. After all, IT'S ABOUT THE MUSIC. Self indulgent harp players are a dime a dozen.
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MrVerylongusername
1984 posts
Oct 10, 2011
1:59 PM
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'Self-indulgent harp players are a dime a dozen'
Agreed. And subtle players who can support the performance of another soloist without getting in the way are as rare as hen's teeth. Sitting out won't teach you anything towards becoming that kind of player.
I reiterate - this is about arrangement. If it is really about the music, then there's should be a space for everyone - you've just got to plan it. If there isn't - what is your musical purpose? What are you bringing to the performance?
I've seen it stated so many times: Don't play over the guitarists solo, don't play while someone's singing. BULLSHIT! That may be the law of the open-mic jam, but being in a gigging band doesn't work like that. It's not a matter of don't do it - it's a matter of think about what you're doing; work it out beforehand. Rehearse it. Make it sound good and unintrusive. The harp can accompany. It's not a battle and it's not about soloing ability, it's about subtlety and dynamics.
Less CAN be more - I'm not questioning that. BUT there's has to be a limit.
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harmonicanick
1326 posts
Oct 10, 2011
2:07 PM
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I agree with MrV, I play jam sessions 3-4 times a week and accompany almost every style of playing. I have done this for many years.
Harmonica can enhance any style or type of music if played with sensitivity
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hvyj
1846 posts
Oct 10, 2011
2:44 PM
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"If it is really about the music, then there's should be a space for everyone - you've just got to plan it. If there isn't - what is your musical purpose? What are you bringing to the performance?"
Well, for better or for worse, we never play anything exactly the same way twice. There are general arrangements, and of course particular tunes have establihed parts, but the performances are highly spontaneous and improvisational which is what we are about. It usually works out pretty well since the bass player and drummer lay down strong and very tight grooves and the band is comprised of reasonably strong and interactive players who are capable of soloing fluidly with sensitivity for each others playing and a good sense of anticipation. We usually go with the flow picking up on one another's ideas, and everything always stays surprisingly tight. The level of performance is consistently above what happens at jam sessions.
I usually play a significant role and come up with stuff to play that fits pretty well, but last time the rest of the band flew higher than i could go, and I don't consider myself to be particularly inept. It's not like I'm tempted to quit or go find weaker musicians to gig with. Judging from the reactions of the band and the musicians in the audience i apparently exercised sound musical judgement by minimizing what i was playing, staying out of the way, and letting the music happen. I mean, i got more than a half dozen extended solos anyway, so it's not like i was just standing around all night. I just wasn't playing anywhere near as much as I usually do. And since the performances are different every time, I'm not sure exactly how the next gig will go. But that's what keeps things interesting. And you know, I get paid an equal cut anyway.
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KingBiscuit
111 posts
Oct 11, 2011
11:57 AM
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I agree with HVYJ. If me stepping back while someone else does a lead or fill makes the overall performance better, then so be it. A guy I know used to say "Above All, Protect the Groove. If you always Protect the Groove, you will always be welcome to sit in." I think that's pretty good advise for any musician, not just harp players.
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SonnyD4885
154 posts
Oct 11, 2011
12:33 PM
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nice i liked that moral (the spot lite can't be on one but everyone) a friend told me that and i like it.
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kudzurunner
2739 posts
Oct 11, 2011
12:41 PM
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I remember reading an article in Guitar Player magazine many years ago in which somebody like Lee Rittenour was being interviewed about what it took to be a studio musician.
He said, "Well, sometimes I come in for a session, and they play me the track, and every now and then, in my professional judgment, it doesn't need anything. It doesn't need my guitar sweetening it. And I tell them that. And they pay me anyway."
That's quite a lesson.
My father, who was a painter--a fine arts guy, not a house painter--told me that the most difficult brush-stroke for a painter to recognize was the stroke that DIDN'T need to be painted. I.e., "You're done. No more is needed."
Same principle.
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LittleBubba
114 posts
Oct 11, 2011
12:50 PM
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@Adam: your point about leaving a stroke out really resonated with me. I mostly improvise my harp comps-- whether they're lines,accents, fills, or whatever-- and often I've noticed that there are notes that make sense in a passage I'm playing, but when I play them I don't like how they fit in with the rest of the band. When I've left them out, my ear has still heard them by suggestion, and I'm off to the rest of the phrase.
It's kept me from clogging up the sound, and it's cost me nothing.
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bluemoose
620 posts
Oct 11, 2011
5:25 PM
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Some of my best jam nights are the times I don't get to play because there are too many first timers (we make sure they get up!) and/or special players in the pub.
So I get to play on every song in my head, take all the solos and play over, around and under the vocals! :)
MBH Webbrain - a GUI guide to Adam's Youtube vids
FerretCat Webbrain - Jason Ricci's vids (by hair colour!)
Last Edited by on Oct 11, 2011 5:25 PM
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DirtyDeck
189 posts
Oct 11, 2011
7:02 PM
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Touching story :) I sure know what itfeels like to come offstage thinking you haven't done particularly well. A few pats on the back always set me straight, stupid insecurity ;)
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Diggsblues
1026 posts
Oct 12, 2011
10:52 AM
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Sometimes being a harmonica player is like being a
composer and an arranger. Especially when your playing on tunes with no set harmonica parts. Thinking like other instruments can help that is one great think about harmonica it can play different roles in different ranges of the instrument.
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Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind
How you doin'
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