528hemi
231 posts
Oct 02, 2011
5:05 PM
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If I am playing to a bluesy song and using notes of the blues scale 2nd position C harp key of G. I understand the blues scale and notes for the 1 chord (G) but what are the blues scale notes for the 4 chord (C), Do I not want to resolve on the 2 blow (E) or 3 blow (G)
In a 12 bar blues when the 4 chord comes, what would be the blues scale notes for the 4 chord. Major for the 4 chord would be C,E,G,B flat?
I understand the bottom line is you can play what sounds good but just trying to understand the Theory behind it.
Regards,
528hemi
Last Edited by on Oct 02, 2011 5:06 PM
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JInx
79 posts
Oct 02, 2011
5:45 PM
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You are prolly better off copying notes off recordings of your favorite players. When they are playing over the 4 chord, make note of their pitch selection. Copy what they do and then analyze it with your scale theories.
IMHO, it's a common mistake to put theory before music. This, tragically, can send you off on lifetime souless journey of theorectical pragmatism.
Last Edited by on Oct 02, 2011 5:59 PM
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hvyj
1813 posts
Oct 02, 2011
5:55 PM
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The theory behind it is that you use the blues scale of the key you are in over all three chords. In the blues idiom (unlike many other styles of music) you do NOT change scales as the chords change, although you may want to throw in some chord tones.
For guidance regarding note selection, focus on the blue notes. The 3b of the scale/key/I chord is the 7b of the IV chord. The 7b of the scale/key/I chord is the 3b of the V chord. One way to do it is to hang on a blue note that's common to both chords as those chords change from one to the other.
As far as "resolving" is concerned, consider this: The 3b resolves UP into the major 3 of the underlying chord. The 5b also resolves UP into the major 5 of the underlying chord. The 7b (when played as a seventh in relation to the underlying chord) does NOT resolve up because the blues chords generally are NOT major 7th chords--they are dominant 7th chords. So, if you hit these blue notes bent, you can release the bend upwards into the corresponding chord tone for a feeling of resolution (unless it is a 7th played as a 7th). Whether, when and how you this is a big part of the emotion created by playing the blues. Of course you can also resolve to the tonic of the chord, but you don't necessarily want to hang there as the chords change.
There have been several threads discussing this stuff in greater detail.
Some musicians will say that blues has no harmony and others will say that blues is just a floating dominant 7th chord. Neither statement is entirely accurate, but the use of the same scale against all 3 chords has a lot to do with why some musicians will say things like that.
Last Edited by on Oct 02, 2011 6:16 PM
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528hemi
232 posts
Oct 02, 2011
6:48 PM
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Thank you both for your comments!
528hemi
Last Edited by on Oct 02, 2011 6:48 PM
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Jim Rumbaugh
578 posts
Oct 02, 2011
6:54 PM
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I had to read hvyj's explanation (above) 3 times before I figured out 3b meant flat third note of the scale and NOT "3 blow"
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
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earlounge
371 posts
Oct 02, 2011
8:50 PM
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When I deviate from the blues scale in 2nd position (previously discussed), then I play first position over the 4 chord and third position over the 5 chord.
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kudzurunner
2715 posts
Oct 02, 2011
9:17 PM
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It's a good, perennial question, and you've already gotten some good answers here.
The truth is, some of the best guidance you can get on this subject is to listen to very good blues singers (Bessie Smith, Joe Williams, B. B. King) and do your best to copy on the harp what they're doing with their voices. I'm talking about VERY subtle listening and playing.
Also listen to T. Bone Walker's guitar playing. Try to replicate his "milking" of blues tonality with your harp.
One of the key subtleties is the way you hit the full step bend on the 2 draw during a V chord and then let the note rise towards the major seventh--the half step bend, which is actually the major third of the V chord.
All the good blues singers and guitarists know how to do what I've talked about, as do Little and Big Walter and the cream of the other great players. It's a subtlety that makes a lot of difference. But many harp players have no idea it's there to be had.
On the IV chord, learn how to play your blue third slightly flatter. The best players--Big Walter--play a somewhat flattened third over the I chord and a slightly flatter third over the IV chord.
Again: a subtlety that many players miss. Simply knowing it's there, beginning to hear it, and then trying to chase after it on your harp will make a world of difference.
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528hemi
233 posts
Oct 03, 2011
12:17 PM
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Thanks for all the responses....I learned alot with this thread!
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hvyj
1822 posts
Oct 03, 2011
12:57 PM
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Btw, there are a couple of other scales that are useful for variety when playing the blues.
There is a variation of the major pentatonic scale that some musicians call the major blues scale, which goes (in degrees of the scale)as follows: 1, 2, 3b, 3, 5, 6, octave.
There's also the Mixolydian scale/mode, which is just a do-re-mi scale with a flat 7th. In second position you have a complete Mixolydian scale from B6 though B9, so it's a useful scale for playing blues on the high register in second position.
BUT, with either of these scales you have to be careful about using the major 3 on the IV chord.
Butterfield will occasionally use the 9b (draw 6 bent) on the V chord which works because that note is the 5b of the V chord. It's a very intense sound, so you can easily overdo it if you use that note too often--but in just the right spot, it can be pretty cool. Draw 10 gives you a major 9th in second position, which can also can sound pretty good in just the right spot.
But the farther you get away from the blues scale the less traditional your playing will sound. Whether this is a good or bad thing sort of depends on how you WANT to sound.
Last Edited by on Oct 03, 2011 1:03 PM
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Steamrollin Stan
109 posts
Oct 15, 2011
9:35 AM
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I agree 100% with yozzadlips and jinx, i dont really understand theory and it pisses me off no end, practice what sounds good, if your going to do a music degree then thats ok, but all the theory dont give you physical feeling when playing. I know some guys here understand theory no end but thier playing is without feeling....imho.
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The Iceman
130 posts
Oct 15, 2011
9:36 AM
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aside from trying to assimilate all the words and theory about this scale, it consists of 6 notes. Play each note, one at a time, and hold it over all the individual changes of the I IV V blues progression to get an idea of how each note sounds over each chord. then, follow your ear and your heart in choosing them.
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The Iceman
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timeistight
160 posts
Oct 15, 2011
9:44 AM
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From Wynton Marsalis' book, "Moving To Higher Ground":Some time ago, the tenor saxophonist Frank Foster was playing a street concert from the Jazzmobile in Harlem. He called for a blues in B-flat. A young tenor player began to play "out" from the first chorus, playing sounds that had no relationship to the harmonic progression or rhythmic setting.
Foster stopped him.
"What are you doing?"
"Just playing what I feel."
"Well, feel something in B-flat, motherfucker."
Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2011 10:18 AM
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Michael Rubin
288 posts
Oct 15, 2011
2:15 PM
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Steamrollin'
Do you play more than one type of music? Are you a blues guy or an everything guy? If you are playing everything I would be very interested to hear samples of your work in multiple genres. I definitely think you can learn to play blues by ear, but I think it gets more difficult the more styles you play.
I spent around fifteen years just feeling it and ultimately got interested in theory and that might be a good way to get in touch with the feeling and build on it. Of course, I may be one of the guys you think has no feeling. I recommend you judge me on my band work and not by examples I put in instructional videos. Check out Michaelrubinharmonica.com, the gigs and studio page and the new CD page.
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RyanMortos
1162 posts
Oct 15, 2011
5:29 PM
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timeistight,
That is hilarious good quote!
@thread
IMO, music theory is very important. I want an understanding so I can play what I want to play which is not just modifications of what I've heard everyone else play on records. I hope to be as unlimited as possible in what I can do & choose to play.
Even if you just want to play traditional 8 & 12 bar blues in 1st, 2nd, & 3rd it's faster to learn what the blues harp players before us did & why it worked with a bit of theory. Then again, I like shortcuts :) .
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~Ryan
"I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window." - Steven Wright
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
See My Profile for contact info, etc.
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Miles Dewar
1130 posts
Oct 15, 2011
7:02 PM
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If you do not learn basic music theory, how will you talk to musicians?
What will you say?
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