Jeffrey van Kippersl
42 posts
Sep 08, 2011
3:13 PM
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Im starting to doubt something about the way I understand chords and positions and keys;
Blues key of G,
I I I I
IV IV I I
V IV I I/IV
I play on a C harp, crossharp
I chord, second position, G
IV chord, first position, C
V chord, third position, D
So I thought lets learn the blues scales in all three positions and work the chord changes on those related positions.
For instance playing the IV chord I play first position blues scale?
Is thisvthe correct way to look at this theory?
Thanks,
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MrVerylongusername
1923 posts
Sep 08, 2011
3:21 PM
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No. Your use of the term 'position' will only lead to confusion. Position (in the harp sense) is only used by harp players and refers to the relationship between the key of the music (not individual chords) and the label stamped on the harp.
Everything else is correct - the scales that fit over the chords - but think of them as 'the blues scale whose tonic is the root note of the I chord' etc...
You are not changing position when the chord changes. You will only change position if the music modulates (key signature changes) or you switch harps.
It might be a handy way of thinking about the scales; it might be far less of a mouthful to communicate, but I know it causes confusion, because this isn't the first time someone's asked the question.
Last Edited by on Sep 08, 2011 3:28 PM
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harpdude61
1015 posts
Sep 08, 2011
3:23 PM
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Jeffery....in one of his classes at HCH, Mr. Ricci told us that if you want to totally change positions, as you describe above, that you must play the same lick during the changes.
A simple example would be if you play a rhythm on 2 hole draw during the I chord, then you should play the same lick on the IV chord, only using 4 blow, V chord using 4 draw..etc... He said otherwise, stay in your I chord licks...
Boogie Woogie stuff does this for example.
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Jeffrey van Kippersl
43 posts
Sep 08, 2011
3:45 PM
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@MrVlun, I understand what ur saying, position is relative to the key of music and harp used.
@harpdude, thats excactly what my understanding is, the application, of the above piece.
However, if jason calls that changing positions how does that relate to MrVlun's description. Which seems very sensable to me.
Thanks for the answers so far!
Jeff
Last Edited by on Sep 08, 2011 3:46 PM
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MrVerylongusername
1924 posts
Sep 08, 2011
3:59 PM
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It's very easy to think of:
'playing a lick that you'd use in third position when your playing in second position'
as being the same as:
'a third position lick'
but it isn't.
The practice of what you are doing is correct. It is just how you describe what you are doing.
A similar confusion occurs with root notes. A root is the note on which a chord is built. It is not the same as the tonic, which is the first note of a scale, but I've lost count of the number of people who use the terms interchangeably - even pros.
Last Edited by on Sep 08, 2011 4:08 PM
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Jeffrey van Kippersl
44 posts
Sep 09, 2011
12:12 AM
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Clear......
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Bart Leczycki
51 posts
Sep 09, 2011
3:44 AM
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For most jazz players every chord it mean one mode/scale (or more scales).
12bars blues in G:
G7 G7 G7 G7
C7 C7 G7 G7
D7 C7 G7 D7
G7 - G mixolydian
C7 - C mixolydian
D7 - D altered
or
G7 - G major pentatonic
C7 - G minor pentatonic
D7 - G Ionian mode
or
G7 - G altered
C7 - G eolian
D7 - D mixolydian
It would be nice to know notes of the every chord and feel tensions between notes/intervals and chords.
To be honest, when I play blues I don't use my music knowledge. I "switch on" my knowledge about theory of harmony, scales and progerssions when I play more complicated/difficult music. So I play blues more by heart and jazz more by brain :o)
I hope it will help you a litte bit :o)
All the best
==============================
www.myspace.com/bleczycki
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The Iceman
96 posts
Sep 09, 2011
7:27 AM
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If you choose to play a blues scale over the changes, you only need the blues scale built on the I chord.
If you want to play non-blues scale ideas and move with the chord changes, here is where you start to change the chord/scale reference for each chord change.
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The Iceman
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groyster1
1383 posts
Sep 09, 2011
8:36 AM
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whatever licks are played on the I chord can be played over the IV chord is my understanding
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The Iceman
97 posts
Sep 09, 2011
10:02 AM
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groyster -
not true. A lick that includes 3 hole inhale will sound not too great when this 3 hole inhale is played over a IV chord if you linger on the note for a bit.
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The Iceman
Last Edited by on Sep 09, 2011 10:02 AM
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hvyj
1765 posts
Sep 09, 2011
10:32 AM
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Groyster: Draw 3 unbent is the MAJOR THIRD. Works fine on the I and ok on the V BUT it's the SEVENTH of the IV and has to be played flat if you are playing blues or it won't sound right.
In blues, you use the blues scale of the KEY YOU ARE IN over all 3 chords. That may not be true for other styles of music but that is the blues idiom. I mean, you probably want to throw in some non-blues scale chord tones as you go, but you don't change scales to correspond to the chord changes when playing blues. You select notes from the blues scale of the key based on the relationship of those notes to the underlying chord (For example, flat seventh of the I is also flat third of the V, flat third of the I is also flat seventh of the IV, etc.)
Last Edited by on Sep 09, 2011 10:36 AM
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groyster1
1384 posts
Sep 09, 2011
11:06 AM
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appreciate the help I have experienced the same confusion as jeff
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jdblues
10 posts
Sep 09, 2011
11:21 AM
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hvyj, are you saying not to change entirely to the IV or V chord's blues scale, but to use the notes from the I chord's blues scale that are in common with the IV or V chord's blues scale?
(That is how I understand your statement that "flat seventh of the I is also flat third of the V, flat third of the I is also flat seventh of the IV, etc.")
For example, in 2nd position, 5 blow is the 4th note of the IV chord, but is not part of the I chord's blues scale.
Would you suggest generally avoiding the 5 blow during the IV chord? When is it appropriate to use the 5 blow?
I would greatly appreciate if you could share a lick (or if possible an entire 12 bar progression) to demonstrate. I think it would be very instructive for me.
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The Iceman
98 posts
Sep 09, 2011
12:10 PM
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jd
all notes from the blues scale on the I chord work just fine over the IV and V chords.
See my posting above....
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The Iceman
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hvyj
1766 posts
Sep 09, 2011
12:16 PM
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"are you saying not to change entirely to the IV or V chord's blues scale, but to use the notes from the I chord's blues scale that are in common with the IV or V chord's blues scale?"
Basically, yes. But you can throw some non-blues scale chord tones in, too as passing notes. Like using (but not leaning on) the B5 (major 6th of the I=major 3rd of the IV) as a passing tone on the IV. OR playing D6 or D10 in just the right spots as a 9th which is an extension tone of the I chord and the 5th of the V chord. Some of these notes are more melodic than "blusey" so there is a stylistic aspect to it depending on how you want to sound.
Playing a note that is a "blue note" of each chord as you transition from one chord to the other is particularly effective--like playing flat 3 of the I as the I chord changes to the IV chord since that note is also the flat 7 of the IV. So it's not just WHAT you play, it's also WHEN you play it.
These are just some examples. There are no hard and fast rules.
i will sometimes play Mixolydian on the high end for variety when playing blues in second position. When I do this, I will typically hit B5 and D6 (6th/9th) to link the middle and upper registers because it's a smoother and more melodic transition than hitting D5 and B6 (7b/root) which can sound rough in that context. Why do i do this? Because I think it sounds better and the 9th is an extension tone of the I chord and the 2nd of the high end Mixolydian scale i'm bridging to (or from) so it makes musical sense.
The Mixolydian scale/mode of the I chord works well for variety on many blues tunes if it's done right--BB king uses it on guitar--and you've got a complete Mixolydian scale from 6b through 9b without any bending in second position. So that's another thing you can do--just be careful about using the major 3 (D7) on the IV.
DON'T LET YOUR PLAYING GET TOO BLUES SCALE BOUND or it will be stilted and boring. But, yeah, you typically don't change scales to match the chord changes when you play the blues.
Last Edited by on Sep 09, 2011 12:37 PM
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jdblues
11 posts
Sep 09, 2011
1:36 PM
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Thanks for the help everyone, I got a lot out of this thread
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mr_so&so
463 posts
Sep 09, 2011
1:45 PM
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I second what hvyj is saying, regarding not getting too scale bound. Dave Barrett has some good lessons on what notes are good for blues in 2nd position, and he does not restrict himself to the blues scale. In fact he says that doing that can be too bluesy in some songs.
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Jeffrey van Kippersl
46 posts
Sep 10, 2011
1:36 AM
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Im learning so much, again....
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harpdude61
1019 posts
Sep 10, 2011
1:44 AM
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Jeffrey.... the harp goes sooo deep...the more I learn, the more I realize i don't know!
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Jeffrey van Kippersl
47 posts
Sep 10, 2011
1:00 PM
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Some solid theory here, guess I learned more about the Blues Idiom. I took a more jazzy approach to the scales, I'm going to focus on this it's very interesting, and it'll probably blues up the sound too....
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bluemoose
599 posts
Sep 10, 2011
1:50 PM
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here's a FerretCat, Jason Ricci video web brain, link to his pentatonic and blues vids where he uses the pentatonic scale in three positions through blues changes.
Check his major scale and positions vids as well.
pentatonic and blues
MBH Webbrain - a GUI guide to Adam's Youtube vids
FerretCat Webbrain - Jason Ricci's vids (by hair colour!)
Last Edited by on Sep 10, 2011 1:51 PM
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Alexander
9 posts
Sep 11, 2011
8:37 AM
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very interesting thread. Thanks.
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