After reading the "type of bending" thread I wanted to start this one.
First, I don't Tongue Block a single note, I don't U- Block a single note, and I don't pucker or purse a single note.
IMHO, if you pucker , like a kiss or similar, you are using un-needed mucsles to do so and shrinking part of your resinator. I am learning to TB single notes but not quite perfromance ready...and my tongue will not let me U-block.
What do I do?
Imagine you are totally relaxed, about to go to sleep, sitting up, and your mouth falls open a little...now put the harp in. To me this is a relaxed embrochure.
I don't use the lip, face, or jaw muscles at all when I play.
I blow and draw bend with the throat. It is very easy to control 1/2 step bends using this method. It is also easy to overbend and control bends on overbends using this method. No need to "pop" the OB with this method. With proper harp set-up you can bring the overbends in very lightly.
Yes the tongue does move, but it is the effect of throat movement or reshaping. Tongue position and inner mouth shape are controlled by the throat.
If you have a relaxed natural, unshaped with muscles, embrochure...and keep your throat and mouth open...and pull/push air from the diaphragm...... you can play deep rich tones on single notes double stops and chords...I also do splits this way. Just ease a limber tongue lightly over the holes to be blocked.
My embrochure looks the same on a low draw bend on a G harp as it does on a 10 hole overdraw on a high F harp. The throat position/shape is all that changes.....my mouth is still barely open like i'm going to sleep and dishrag limp. You can see my Adams Apple moving when I play.
So when someone ask if I TB LP or UB..how do I respond? To me, I do none of the above.
Side note...this is not a one is better than the other thread....I am a fan of full time TBers like Sugar Blue as well as some of the great overblowers and many in between. I'm just asking is this another option for players to use?
First off,the correct term is EMBOUCHURE-you may think you are using the throat to bend,but the tongue does most of the work to deliver the desired effect. If the harmonica is touching the lips,but you are NOT using the tongue to block off any holes,you are in fact lip pursing or lip blocking. You also may be using what Jerry Portnoy refers to as an "asymmetrical embouchure"-lip pursing or lip blocking,but also using the tongue for certain effects.
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2011 6:31 AM
@tmf714...this thing does not have spellcheck and no one gives a rat's ass..
@tmf714....Buddha himself told me I was a throat player and set my harps up so. The muscles in my tongue are limp on a single note. I can feel and watch the throat pick out the three pitches on 2 draw bend. The tip of the tongue is tucked way under the lower front teeth asleep...when I bend with the throat it causes the fat part of the tongue to slightly move, but still no tongue muscle used.
@ Kingobad...I agree about a time for everything. I just think the terms purse and especially pucker imply "kissy" all the time to new players.
@harpdude61-if no one gave a rats ass,there would be no dictionary,spellcheck or any other form of correction-I was simply pointing out the correct terminology and spelling. Chris was not God-his playing actually did little for me -there is no such thing as a "throat player"-all wind instrument players use the throat to play.-just pointing out the facts-
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2011 11:32 AM
No, he is definitely TB if his tongue is on the harp blocking holes.
You are just a very relaxed lip purser, perhaps lip blocker may be the better term. IT may not register anything to you, but you probably do make minor changes with your mouth that you may not notice.
Logically, if you are not blocking holes with your tongue, you are blocking them with your mouth (hence your lips) even if you do not use ANY lip muscles...
And of course I just have to do it...
What do you think his embouchure is? Does it project sexuality and/or does it get him the chicks?
Sorry couldn't resist... ---------- Danny
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2011 7:33 AM
It sounds like you are a lip purser! How do you NOT U-block, pucker or tongueblock?.... -----------------------------------
"I don't use the lip, face, or jaw muscles at all when I play"
.... I find that VERY hard to believe. There are are almost 100 muscles in your face. To say that you can be Concious of the use of EVERY one of these is outrageous, not to mention having complete "Control" over them. (Medical professionals go through a GREAT deal of stress learning these muscles, to say that you are aware of all or have "control" over them is slightly insulting. ;) It takes a LOT of hard work to just know where they are.)
..... Tongue position and inner mouth shape are NOT controlled by the throat. There are too many muscles in your mouth to believe that none are being utilized when you do ANYTHING with your throat. Tongue and mouth muscles are flexing Every time you breathe.
Our tongues are NEVER relaxed. It won't happen until you are dead. Or after your visit with an anasthesiologist.
So it seems you are a lip purser. Nothing wrong with that.
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2011 7:41 AM
I think you are a lip purser if you don't put your tongue on the harp. I've never heard of a "throat player", but I feel the technique can be used with both TB'ing and LP'ing.
I LP most of the time, but I work on TB'ing every day. Now I catch myself using my throat to bend when LP'ing.
OT - I hate that this forum doesn't have spell check!
All jokes are good jokes! I was hoping for a gentlemanly yet educational debate.
Sometimes I wonder about my lip armbroshure. My top lip is so far over my GM that part of my lip blocks the opening on the coverplate. Maybe throat playing causes this or this causes throat playing...lol
I guess lip blocker is an okay term, but I'm not really conciously blocking anything.
How about a lip throater...nah...sounds too pornographic...help me out here.
If your throat isn't touching the harp(I hope it isn't), I gotta tell ya, you are pursing your lips or blocking with your tongue or...you never play a single note.
Harpdude, I think you are using your lower lip like a fleshier "u", which I also do. It becomes so unconscious and really doesn't take much movement at all to block/unblock holes.
I am starting to tongueblock more as well, but I will never throw away that embouchure because for me there are many things that are easier to articulate, and tones that I hear that are easier to play that way.
It's a mouth organ, there are a lot of ways to attack it, diversity is the spice of life!
The Possum Whisperer. I like that! Thats funny! HarpDude The only reason there is a term lip pursing/puckering is just to state that your tongue isn't on the harmonica. Thats all it is! Its not not really that scientific. Chris should have never told you you were a throat player. He wasn't lieing, but how in the hell can someone not be throat player? I fully understand that when people start to play they play using the air from there mouth more than there throat and/or diaphram, but still as long as you don't stick the harp up your ass your either a lip purser or a tongue blocker. Now if you could play chords with your butt and melodies with your mouth that would be cool. I tried butt could only play one chord. It was B low!
@ chromaticblues OK I got the butt pucker working pretty well, I can even bend the hole. I'm struggling with the turd slaps. Just can't hit em clean. Should I use less air?
"Throat player" refers to note-bending, not embouchure. Buddha's appraisal of your playing style remains correct. You bend from the throat - but your embouchure sounds like a textbook lip-block to me.
I also definitely prefer the term “Lip Block” as I see a difference between relaxed lips and pursed lips which actually creates a thinner sound (which one may want to do at times).
I’m guessing if Buddha told you were a throat player though he probably had something specific in mind when he said it. I remember him discussing different ethnic cultures being “Throat Singers” or overtone singers who use their resonant chambers to change what they are singing. So I’m guessing perhaps the principle somehow could be applied to the harmonica
Anyway I Googled the following.
Overtone singing also known as overtone chanting, or harmonic singing, is a type of singing in which the singer manipulates the resonances (or formants) created as air travels from the lungs, past the vocal folds, and out the lips to produce a melody. The partials (fundamental and overtones) of a sound wave made by the human voice can be selectively amplified by changing the shape of the resonant cavities of the mouth, larynx and pharynx. This resonant tuning allows the singer to create apparently more than one pitch at the same time (the fundamental and a selected overtone), while in effect still generating a single fundamental frequency with his/her vocal folds.
Another name for overtone singing is throat singing, but that term is also used for Inuit throat singing, which is produced differently.
Last Edited by on Sep 02, 2011 1:48 PM
THanks MrVerylongusername...that is true.. I blow bend, draw bend, overblow, overdraw, and bend the overbends with my throat. I guess that is what Chris meant.
Todd... I bet you had no idea I was a former stutterer...lol..funny...hey-buh
shanester...probably the truth...but I still don't look at it as blocking...I just feel like I am directing my airflow thru one hole and blocking nothing.
I have all my teeth..If I had them pulled, would it make my tone fatter?..only logical that the resonance chamber would be larger....
tim-elf 714...forgot about that old thing...damn..hope i've gotten better, especially the relaxed breathing.
Harpdude61 You are right, relaxation is the key. It is certainly worth becoming aware of any unwanted tension in the mouth or indeed in the body generally. Apart from the points you've already listed, I would add 'Am I holding the harp too firmly? Am I tensing my shoulders? Am I relaxed in my breathing?
Isn't this problem covered in the Alexander technique which looks at unecessary tension or stress being applied in any number of things from mundane daily activities to sport etc.,? ---------- Grey Owl YouTube Grey Owl Abstract Photos
I just spoke to Jerry Portnoy... I just got off the phone with Jerry and he clarified this for us. I've worked/played with him on numerous occasions, but I too was not sure exactly what he was stating here.
In his opinion the pucker embouchure is well balanced... air goes through the center of your embouchure and all the muscles that support it are centered. For him, when he tongue blocks, he uses more muscles on one side and tends to use more muscles of the tongue in the tongue block bending process. This is what he meant when stating "asymmetric embouchure."
The conversation that followed was what I expected and was similar to one I'd had many years ago with him... his choice for when he tongue blocks and when he puckers... all for the desired affect.
In the end it gets down to what feels best for you. When practicing tongue block bending keep in mind that only your tongue moves, so there is no auxiliary muscles needed nor do you need to "muscle-up" your tongue for the bending process. At first it will feel this way, as in any type of embouchure when bending, but in time your embouchure will be relaxed.
Thanks to Jerry for spending the time to answer this question.
Tongue... not throat. Throat has nothing to do with the bending process... you don't want auxiliary tension in your body that's not needed. .
I agree MrV, I too am always bemused by statements of absolutes when like with most things in life there is usually more than one way to skin a cat, so there no point getting all fired up over these things.
With regard to the throat / tongue discussion though, the tongue actually extends down into the throat where it meets the epiglottis in a space called the vallecular groove, which is all part of the oropharynx. This area contributes to the resonating chamber which can be shaped by muscular activity to perform an action. Below this point however within the respiratory tract is the Trachea which consists of fixed cartilaginous rings that can’t be shaped at all.
So all I’m saying really is that when people argue about whether the bend is formed by the tongue or throat they may be talking about the same thing or they may be talking of an action that is performed in different areas of the pharynx that has the same end result i.e. directing air to bend a note.
"THanks MrVerylongusername...that is true.. I blow bend, draw bend, overblow, overdraw, and bend the overbends with my throat. I guess that is what Chris meant."
I am unwilling to accept that you overblow and overdraw without using your tongue and embouchure - only using your throat.
Harpdude - were you hoping we would all chime in with our own approach? Or did you just want your corpse scavanged by vultures?
What have I learned here? a. people really do give a rat's ass, especially when they don't agree with you. b. damn it! You had better not call it what you want - you had better call it what I want! c. that guy over there who disagrees with me and says you should call it something else? He's an idiot - you had better call it what I want...
@ricanefan...what are you saying..they have killed me in this post? not sure who you are talking about in B and C. I'll say it again...if anyone gives a rat's ass that some of us are not perfect spellers.... that is your problem. It is good to post a thread that gets responses and creates talk...I've learned a helluva lot more than you from this thread.
Look at a couple other recent threads. You have those that seek out something to disagree about on a regular basis. I could post the lost tapes of Little Walter jamming backstage with Sonny Terry and one or two would have something negative or smartassy to say.
Good to hear from ya Greyowl...he gets it!
Last Edited by on Sep 03, 2011 5:30 AM
@greyowl and harpdude you bring up what barbque bob preaches-RELAXATION!I am trying very hard to develop an effective throat vibrato and the reason I am not succeeding is inability to totally relax BTW all you english profs feel free to put red marks all over my posts-it makes me howl with laughter
@Groyster Ah yes Bar-B-Q Bob is wise indeed I went to the doc's the other day and told him I had a problem - sometimes I feel like a wigwam and sometimes like a marquee. He said I think I know what your problem is - You're two tents ---------- Grey Owl YouTube Grey Owl Abstract Photos
Last Edited by on Sep 03, 2011 10:34 AM
"Thanks to Jerry for spending the time to answer this question."
"Tongue... not throat. Throat has nothing to do with the bending process... you don't want auxiliary tension in your body that's not needed."
@tmf714...Is the last quote you or Mr.Portnoy? Mr. Portnoy is wrong then. I can't speak for TB bends, but my pursing bends are done with my throat...any yes it does pull my tongue along for the ride....and what does throat bending have to do with auxilary tension?
@KingObad "I am unwilling to accept that you overblow and overdraw without using your tongue and embouchure - only using your throat.
I just don't think it can be done..."
I didn't thing you could overblow and overdraw TBing, but Shoulders has proved me wrong.
If you watch Jason Ricci, he does a lot of runs, fast and slow, that include overbends. No way that he could move so quickly and cleanly between overblows overdraws, blow bends, draw bends, etc...if he had to do a complete embrouchure change. Watch his throat.
I stand by my statement that my embrouchere is the same relaxed position for any note played on any harp. Throat works bettter because once you learn to use it, control of notes is amazing.
EXAMPLE.....Blowbending the half steps on hole ten is clean and easy if you use your throat.........Some people recommend the squeeze the mouth shut to bend a blow bend. It works but since you change your mouth shape, your tone changes as well.
Throat bending the the notes of 10 blow allows you to move between the 3 notes available with clean distinction and nice vibrato if you choose...and if you overdraw 10 your embrouchere is already in position.
Think about it...the less mouth movement you need to play all the notes, the cleaner and faster you can play.
Last Edited by on Sep 04, 2011 1:07 AM
