Although I'm not really a 3rd position player I thought I was learning at least a little something about it. I was starting to think I at least understood what it was even though I can't say I play in that position well. But suddenly I was thrown for a loop. I was watching a video of Charlie Musselwhite playing "just a feeling" and you could see "A" on his harp. When I play my A harp it fits with the song. When I move up the hap to notes I think he is playing, mid harp...5-8 they fit also. But he also moves down low at times and I mes around at the one and two hole and it seems to fit there also. Yet someone commented on the video and said Charlie is using a great example of 3rd position...huh? I thought he would have needed a different harp. If my A harp fits the song I assume the music is in E. I thought to play in 3rd he would need a D harp.
So my question is can 3rd position be played on the same harp you are playing in 2nd position? In other words, if the band was playing in E and I used an A harp in 2nd position, during the song could I move up to the area of 4D,5D,6B,6D*, 6D,7B,8D and play in third position on that same harp to the same song?
I don't know if I'm being to basic on ya - let me know. You don't need another harp for 3th pos. The positions indicate that you are playing blues in different keys on the same harp. As earl pointed out, on an A harp, first is A, second is E, third is B, fouth is F# etc.
If you play in second pos., then for the IV and V chord, you are actually playing in 'another position' (or at least, you can, if you want to copy the riffs you did on the I chords to the other chords of the progression). First pos. being the IV chords and third being the V chord.
If CM was playing in third position, the I chord would be B, so your blues scale during that chord would be, as you said: 4D,5D,6B,6D*,6D,7B,8D. That same scale can also be played down low. Starting with 1D, than: 2D**,2D,3D***,3D**,4B,4D. Third position is not only on the top end, although it is done there often because... well, look at the blues scale down there: takes a lot of precision bending. It's not as sweet as up there.
For the 4 Chord in third position, you could play in crossharp (2. position). The 5 chord is F#, making your root notes 6D and 2D* (fourth position).
Start learning the circle of fifths. I myself only practice the 123 blues scales right now, giving me some ability to play along in 1. and 3.. Once I have these down (including 7OD,1OB etc) real fast and fluent, I will venture out to 12th and 4th. But it's a good idea to let your theory move with your ability. They can enforce one another! Overblow.com is perhaps a good starting point. There is a youtube vid on the circle of fifths by Tinus koorn (overblow.com) that will get you on the move!
BTW: don't confuse the key of the song (and the corresponding position) with the position you play in required to get the right chords. Every key song allows you to play 3 positions during the chord progression. That's why you can probably already play in third - you know how to work the V chord in cross harp.
"The 5 chord is F#, making your root notes 6D and 2D* (fourth position)."
Close, but root notes in fourth position are 6D and 3D**. Fourth is an easy position to play because that 3D** bend is the only bend you really need to be able to get around effectively in fourth position.
Dorian mode/scale is a do-re-mi scale with a flat third and a flat seventh. It differs from the natural minor scale (Aeolean mode)in that it has a major sixth while the natural minor scale has a flat sixth (as well as flat third and flat seventh). Obviously the Dorian mode has a lot of notes in common with the blues scale and it can be used for playing major key blues and certain minor key blues. The low register third position scale that FreeWilly has tabbed out is the blues scale, not the Dorian scale/mode.
Dorian scale in third position through 2 registers would be: 1D 2B 2D** 2D/3B 3D** 3D 4B 4D 5B 5D 6B 6D 7C 7B 8D.
Remember, playing a harp in different positions is just playing the instrument in different keys which is something musicians who play other instruments do all the time as a mater of course.
Still a great help. It all helps. Most times the information I get ends up giving names and definitions to things I already do. When I first started playing the harp I played to 12 bar blues because I could hear where the changes were and I knew what notes fit. Ok..I hit many, many bad notes but that is a matter of knowing/not knowing my way around the harp. The point was I knew what I was looking for...just not by name or chord or note name or scale etc. Now I find that I have probably been playing in 3rd position quite often purely by sound or accident.
I have, in the past, picked up a harp that didn't match the key of the song in first or second and just moved around the harp until I found a group of holes that fit. That usually turned out to be between 4 and 8. Now I know why. The more I learn the more it becomes easier to fit things with more direction rather than by ear. I tend to go through a lot of bad riffs...lol.
@FreeWilly: No, I'm not wrong, root notes for fourth position are 3D** and 6D.
Illustration. Say you want to play in C natural minor using fourth position. Okay, you need an Eb harp to do that. On an Eb harp, 3D** is C and 6D is C. 8D would be F which is the fourth degree of the C natural minor scale, not root.
Let's try it on a C harp, which gives you A natural minor in fourth position. On a C harp 3D** is A and 6D is A. 8D would be D which is the fourth not root.
I play fourth position regularly, but if you don't want to take my word for it, check out the notation charts on the Suzuki World Class Harmonicas website.
@Tommy the Hat: Try this: G Mixolydian scale/mode on a C harp: 6B 6D 7D 7B 8D 8B 9D 9B. Now, when you bridge up to this scale from the middle register or bridge down from this scale stay away from D5 and hit B5 instead. Go from B5 to 6B or 6D--it will sound a lot smoother than if you hit 5D. Playing Mixolydian is an easy way to play the high end in second position without using blow bends.
Btw, I first learned to play in third position by accident, too.
Last Edited by on Aug 26, 2011 12:18 PM
I would love to see the video in question. My guess is you assumed the song was in E, because the A harp worked, but it was actually in B. Third position tends to lay out nicely in blues, so you could have naturally made 3rd position work without being able to name what you were doing.
I think the OP is asking.."can you play 2nd positiion in the Dorian minor mode (which is the natural mode for 3rd position)"? The answer is yes! Use the flat third on three draw bent 1/2 step...not the blues 3rd like you would use in crossharp which is slightly sharp, but a clean 1/2 step bend on 3 draw. Also the flat 7th which is 5 draw and 2 draw bent a whole step.
Do you see the commonalities of notes used between the 2 positions? I play Dorian often in 2nd position....another place where the 6 OB is useful as well.
@Harpdude sort of. I was actually asking if, while playing 2nd position, if I could go to 3rd on the same harp, same song. My question was answered long ago in this thread...lol. The rest is all just good extra stuff.
@Michael Here it is
I posted this video once before and someone here commented that it was nice use of 3rd position. I've been thinking about this ever since. ---------- Tommy
Bronx Mojo
Last Edited by on Aug 26, 2011 12:40 PM
Ok. Last night I messed around playing over this video and used my A harp. I could hear where he was around mid harp and found notes there. Then he goes low and I matched up notes (so I thought) on the one hole draw....I can't remember today but I thought also the 2 draw bent. I'm not sure about 3 draw or bent....don't remember. I may have skipped over 4. My work partner goes home in 10 minutes. I'll get the harp out and try it again. ---------- Tommy
I disagree harpdude. The song is in B major. The third note in the B major scale is D#. If the song were minor that D# would sound terrible. However, when I play the D#, it sounds fine. Try one draw button on your chromatic or 2 blow on your B harp.
Lots of people assume that when they play third position it is for minor songs. But Blues songs and minor songs share a commonality, both of the main scales to help navigate the song use a flatted third, in this case the D note. However, what makes a song minor or major is not what the melody player is doing, it is what the rhythm player is doing. If the root chord, aka, the chord that has the same name of the key you are in, has a major third, in this case, if the B chord has a D# in it, then the song is major. Since it is a blues song, both D or D# will work fine, D is in the blues scale, D# is in the root chord.
Very good...that makes sense Michael and I guess you're correct. That is why the first time I tried playing along, back when I first found this video maybe 2 months ago, it worked and didn't. I could play some notes but some normal 2nd position notes didn't work well. yesterday I just tried to copy his sound rather than improvise via cross harp. ---------- Tommy
Bronx Mojo
Last Edited by on Aug 26, 2011 12:50 PM
I just checked my very handy chart (with all blues scales) with Todd Parrot's, and the only pos. that didn't work out was 4 (from the flat 5th on up). I corrected it.
If someone wants that chart (it's all 12 positions, all blues scales in exel), just put your email up, and I'll send it. I don't have a fileshare or anything... Just trying to make up for my mistake :)
Tommy...2 draw bent1 and 2 draw as well as one draw are notes used in 3rd as well as second. Michael is correct. Trust me ..you are playing in third and didn't realize it....keep noodling with it...rememeber that 1 draw and 4 draw are your root note...2draw and 6 blow are root notes for the IV chord..You are on your way to learning an awesome position that opens the way to play different styles of song like House of the Rising Sun and minor blues.
Funny. It's something I've done before. I take my harp and find a spot (at times it may only be two holes) that works. Anyway...thanks, very educational. And as a side note. This song just blows me away.
The guy I'm working with is now 1 minute passed his time to go home!! I'm about to get up and throw him out physically!! My A harp is calling me. ---------- Tommy
Groyster1, If you only bend 2 draw down 1 half step you get a major third which is the one note you do not want in minor. Bend it down a whole step to get the minor third,aka flat third.
I've been playing with this. I still hit a few bad notes here and there but I'm getting more of the hang of it. I also got out the E harp and played second position listening for the relationship.
I got a lick going - bent 6 and release to 7 blow (just a passing note) to 8D with some vibrato. then backwards from 8D to the 6 draw bend release,bend release again (hold note)then down to 4D,4B, 4D, then down to the 1.
Ok...more than a lick but it started from the bent 6,7B,8D...lol
Ok...it's been 2 hours and I have to eat! (or do some work)
a circle of 5ths gives you what harp for what key in what position. if you're in 3rd on an a harp the song is in fact in B.
one thing i like about 3rd is esp on a lower register harp you can access all 10 holes with tongue block. block the middle 2 of the 4 holes you cover. start at 1 thru 4 and move up and back. there is a lot you can do with this. not only that but starting at draw 3 you can do single notes up to draw 10. not to mention the fill in blow notes as well. ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
