Any good tips on improv anything is helpful seems like i cant stay away from repetition do i have to learn more riffs please help.
Last Edited by on Aug 17, 2011 8:14 PM
As beginner myself I feel your pain. I get sick of hearing the same riffs/licks I keep playing for every song, they become irritating to me. However I have found that the more I play, and the more I listen to music and then play along, copy and then play some more. I start adding more licks and ideas. It's a slow growth...but it's growth none the less. All I can say from my perspective is just keep playing. Play, play and play some more. Listen to a lot of music and play along. Get the sound of the licks in your head and sing them. Then play some more. ---------- Tommy
If you are a riff/lick based learner, you will find yourself at this crossroads over and over again. As Tommy the Hat states, it is very slow growth. There are ways to get to the goal much faster....however, it does take one on a different journey/mindset, but is well worth the change in attitude.
One suggestion is to start to listen to scale degrees and understand each one as a different color or with a different gravitational pull. Once understood, you may be able to pick and choose your notes based on the effect they produce and eventually become your own riff/lick making machine------- The Iceman
Hey Iceman thanks for the advise but i don't understand what you mean by listen to scale degrees. Do you mean learn all the different scales, and i'm not a riff/lick based learner i just thought that would make for faster improvement. By all means i'm open to anything that would help me and am willing to change in any direction. I thought to myself if i learn enough riffs i will be able to jam pretty good boy was i wrong. Frankly i'm getting kind of bored of the same thing everyday i find far more enjoyment when like Tommy the Hat says, i just play,play,play most of the time the riffs that i learned don't even surface when i play how ironic is that. And by the way i am a beginner but i can bend,play clean single notes,warble,head shake,play octaves,and use all hand techniques,and use throat vibrato not very fast but i can, speed is not that fast. Anyway any help is very welcome and appreciated i thank all of you guys who help it's a wonderful thing i look forward to the day i can help beginners myself. thanks again.
Last Edited by on Aug 18, 2011 2:48 PM
I'm going to butt in here again although I don't really have anything very useful to say, there is still too much I don't know. But I am new to this also so I figure I can tell you what I feel and do. This way, even though it may not help you improve, then at least you know that maybe you're not any different or worse off than other beginners.
I have some of the same troubles you do. But when I keep playing and trying/exploring new things I find I move ahead by small steps. However, I then find that I end up at times, moving back step or two. The ahead again. That's the way it goes I suppose and I am hopeful that at some point I will be looking back at all this and just playing as well as anyone else.
What gets me discouraged at times is reading some of the forum posts. At that point I have to just regroup and keep playing trying not to think too much. When I just play and try to improve on my playing and tone, improvising etc I feel good if I see improvement. Then I read a post about scales and degrees and positions and flat 7ths and make sure you don't play this with that. Or first you have to learn every scale on the planet forward and backward or you'll never be any good and all the other technical theory based advice. Then I feel almost like there is no hope...lol. it sometimes takes the fun out of it. But I just regroup, as I said before. Take a deep breath, and go back to "one step at a time." Sound, that's what I want first. How does it sound? Then I move on from there. A little more theory and a little more sound. A little more reading and getting tips from the forum and a little more experimentation. I have to remind myself that I shouldn't try to take on too much at once. I stay saturated in my harp but not overfilled. Time and practice. Someday maybe I'll be (we'll be) answering the questions rather than answering.
I also record myself (video) and find it helps to amplify the bad areas. It makes a difference standing back and reviewing yourself. I have even had balls enough to publicly post videos of myself here....yikes!! All for the cause of learning.
What he means is learn scales well enough to "feel" how each note sounds. A flat 5th will sound restless and want to move. A 6th will sound sweet. A flat 7th will sound a little rough or tense. A blue third will stand out and sing if played correctly. A blues seventh/harmonic seventh will sound darker and more harmonious than a true flat 7th. Etc.
Tommy man it seems like you and i are right there neck and neck fighting the good fight. I believe you are completely feeling me we seem to be going through the same emotions and situations in are harp playing. These are the things the advanced players never talk about, the struggle they went through so that beginners can relate. Dude to bad you don't live down here in Miami i think i'm the only harp player in this town.
hvyj that sounds good but i don't know what a 5th,6th or 7th is or where on the harmonica it is but do you recommend learning that now or does it come with time.
Do you have a backing band package, Band in a box, Garage Band etc?
Approaching scales (major, minor, pentatonics etc) from different positions (different starting points on the harmonica) can really open up new aspects of your playing, you find sweet spots, things that sound good and some that don't work.
If you put some time into jamming around a repeated progression you can start to really get inside it.
I think eventually some music theory (i realise i have no idea of what you already know) will open up more opportunities for you expand your playing.
Sincere apologies about the video imagery but the following video is made from simply playing around the chord changes and finding what sounds good and bad.
LEARN SCALES! once you know how to play a scale, it's easy to know which note is which degree of the scale: You just count.
The easy thing about playing Richter tuned diatonic harps is that the breath pattern for any scale in any position is the same in all 12 keys.
For example, in ANY KEY, the 5 hole blow will ALWAYS be a 3rd in first position, a 6th in second position, a 2nd in third position, a 5th in fourth position, root in fifth position and a major 7th in twelfth position. Any competent musician needs to know where to find which notes on his or her instrument. This is BASIC.
If you only play in certain positions, then it is enough for you to know which notes are where in the particular positions you use when you play.
A beginner should learn this stuff right away. Like, now if not yesterday. Knowing WHERE the notes are is very basic. Understanding how each note "feels' comes with experience.But that is also something that can be learned early if you have an experienced good musician to explain it to you (who, btw, does not even need to know how to play harp). after all, they teach stuff like that in music school, so any reasonably well trained musician should be able to explain it.
I know playing a c harp in first position your playing the c major scale, and if your playing in second position your playing in G that means you start playing at the G correct. but are you then subjected to playing only that scale or can you jump from scale to scale.
Do you know the song "Do, a dear, a female dear. Re, a drop of golden sun..."? Then you already know the major scale as do re mi fa sol la ti do. do = 1, re = 2, mi = 3, etc. Each number is a scale degree, or another name for do re mi.
The easiest way to understand the gravity involved is to learn to feel that scale degree 1 (or do) will feel like it is at rest. It doesn't want to go anywhere or move towards anything. Scale degree 2 (or re) will start to feel as if it "wants" to go somewhere else, like back to degree 1. Each scale degree aside from the first one has a feeling of motion or gravitational pull. They are not all equal, but have different movement pulls or pushes, wanting to move.
Open up your senses to feel this and come to an understanding of how each of the scale degrees contains its own momentum or gravitational pull. Start to relate it to the notes on the harmonica and let the emotion move you rather than any intellectual pursuit. When studying a riff/lick, look at each note and determine where they are in the scale degree and why some notes feel more exciting than others, and when the feeling of motion or excitement comes to rest. ---------- The Iceman
What scales do you recommend i learn and in what position? This may be a stupid question but if your playing in second position and using the blues scale can you play other scales within that position?
Last Edited by on Aug 18, 2011 5:56 PM
You gotta start slow. Start with the major diatonic scale. all the white keys on the piano from "C" to "C". This is hole 4 exhale to 7 exhale on the harmonica. Use it to gain insight into feeling the scale degrees. This is not so much how to jam out on a harmonica which scales to learn for blues as it is an introduction to how music works.
Don't mix all these concepts together or you will get even more confused. ---------- The Iceman
Yes, if you are playing the blues scale in second position you CAN also use other scales.
Scales to learn: (*=half step bend)
1st position major (do-re-mi) scale: 4B 4D 5B 5D 6B 6D 7D 7B
1st position major pentatonic scale: 4B 4D 5B 6B 6D 7B
3rd position minor pentatonic scale: 4D 5D 6B 6D 7B 8D
3rd position blues scale: 4D 5D 6B 6D 6D* 7B 8D
3rd position Dorian minor scale (do-re-mi scale w/flat 3rd and flat 7th): 4D 5B 5D 6B 6D 7G 7B 8D
2d position Mixolydian scale (do-re-mi scale with flat 7th): 6B 6D 7D 7B 8D 8B 9D 9B
2d position major pentatonic scale: 2D/3B 2D** 2D 4D 5B 6B
2d position minor pentatonic scale: 2D/3B 3D* 4B 4D 5B 6B
2d position blues scale: 2D/3B 5D* 4B 4D* 4D 5B 6B
2D and 3B are the same note.
Pay attention to what Iceman is telling you. He knows what he's talking about. I'm just giving you tab for some different scales.
Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2011 5:19 AM
Good morning to all so let me get this straight hv you suggest i learn all those scales backward and forward feel them as i go along and that will improve my playing.
Jorge - you are still looking for an easy answer of "do this and it will improve my playing?", methinks. If you follow this line of thinking, I believe the scales you learn will become more licks/riffs without the deeper musical understanding that lies beneath.
One problem I've discovered is that musicians seem to compartmentalize "Here are the scales I have to practice/learn up and down, up and down" and "over there is the music".
A new mindset regarding what scales actually are will help accelerate your understanding of music. Scales should be considered a basic melodic line and can be practiced as such - scales are just a base of melodic note offerings from which to make choices.
Work the basic musical scale from hole 4 exhale to 7 exhale slowly and make it sound musical, not like an automatic up and down with no emotion.
Next, start to see all the simple melodic ideas that "live in these choices" - starting with simple Stephen Foster Americana type songs or nursery rhyme/lullabies. (Row Your Boat, Mary had a little, Silent Night - you know a bunch of these in your head already). Don't worry about jamming blues. Start to understand how a good pool of melodic note choices can start to craft melodies.
Once you "get this", you can start by choosing one other scale to understand (ie, Dominant 7th Scale with its flatted 7th tone, which gives you a different note choice within the 7 tones outlined in the scale).
Remember, this is outside of the "learn all scales backwards and forwards". This is just choosing one and getting deep into it.
Eventually you can slowly start to approach a different scale or mode and learn where the notes live on the harmonica.
It feels like a longer road to travel, but once you get over the hump, your learning and understanding will accelerate and you will find less of those artistic plateaus to get stuck on.
(Based on an article I wrote many years ago for AHN called "Plateau Busting"). ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2011 5:57 AM
Well, first you've got to learn them well enough to play them with consistent accuracy and proper intonation before you will be able to "feel" the notes (many of which are duplicated in more than one scale). That's a lot to get done.
This is why Iceman was suggesting that you just learn the do-re-mi scale and listen to that in order to learn to "feel" the notes.
The most useful scales to know for improv are the blues scale, the major pentatonic scale and the minor pentatonic scale. I'm not saying to ignore the others, but you've got to start somewhere and you can get a whole lot of mileage out of just those 3 scales.
Learn to play these scales up and down so that it becomes automatic. Start slow and be accurate. Be sure to get all the bends in the proper order in each direction. Just about any musician who plays any instrument well has spent time practicing scales.
Iceman's latest post went up as i was writing this. Pay attention to what he is telling you which is different than the mechanics of just learning the tabs I've given you for different scales. My tab is just a guide for learning where to find the notes of certain scales--Iceman is explaining what to do with those notes,
Btw, what he refers to a the "dominant 7th scale" is the same as what i have referred to as the Mixolydian scale, which is actually a mode. Some of these go by more than one name. But it's how they SOUND that is important, so pay attention to Iceman.
Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2011 6:06 AM
Perhaps to keep it simple and focused, hvyj's suggestion of learning 3 scales up and down automatically can be approached after you spend time with and "get" the concept of non-automatic playing of one scale as a melodic line with great note choices.
The trap a beginner falls into (without the benefit of a 1 on 1 teacher with weekly lessons) is that they want it all now and throw themselves at so many scales to learn as they can start to cram.
You can actually spend a month or two on just the first concept and don't worry about anything beyond until it sinks in. You will always have plenty of time later to spend on learning 2, 3 or more other scales. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2011 6:04 AM
You guys are amazing I can't thank you enough for your help and yes I wish I had you guys in town to take lessons but I will follow your advice and and do my part I know it takes time its just that when you find something you love and enjoy you want to know everything thanks so much.
