I was listening to some recent harmonica recordings (I won't name the artist) on my way to work and it really drove home something I'd been thinking about a lot recently - IMHO too many modern players overuse vibrato. It's there in every note they play. I actually find it hard to listen to a few players because that vibrato is so 'in your face'; for me it ruins otherwise beautiful melodies.
I switched to a SBWII track - a world of difference. Tasteful embellishment for emphasis.
I don't personally use a lot of throat vibrato when I play - I really prefer a 'clean' note. I'll sometimes (not always) put some vibrato on the tail end of a long sustained note
I'd rather have a big plate of fries with a dollop of ketchup on the side for occasional dipping, than a bowl of ketchup smothering a single chip.
Not just you at all. It is like a guitar player who uses a wahwah peddle for every song. the pedal and harp vibrato have their place but in moderation on the right notes. ---------- Bend it like Ricci - Me (Formerly known as Big Daddy Ray)
It possibly depends on whether you really mean over-used vibrato or whether you really mean just plain bad vibrato. I've forgotten what "throat vibrato" sounds like, so I may check it out on youtube sometime. ----------
Andrew. ----------------------------------------- Those who are tardy do not get fruit cup.
Vibrato is often grossly overused by harp players, IMO. I like to think of it as a "switch" that can be turned on and off for effect, not a constant element of every note that I play. Of course, this is my taste. Many seem to like what I consider overuse. ---------- 12gagedan's YouTube Channel
I agree that a throaty/ raspy, overly flattened 2 or 3 draw overused in blues is not great.
On the other hand was listening to "ain't nobody better than nobody" from Satan and Adam's Mother Mojo, and there is tons of vibrato in that song, very tasteful.
I also like Aaron Neville's singing, but glad that everyone does not sing like that, but it his style and he does it very well.
I suppose it varies right across music, and according to the tradition and/or period of music you're playing.
This is a rubbish example, 'cos it has nothing to do with harp, and most people probably won't know what I'm banging on about. Anyway, here goes...
One of my favourite pieces of music is Purcell's opera Dido and Aeneas from around 1690. The soprano Emma Kirkby sings the title role on a Chandos recording with a very tasteful, very economic use of vibrato, and it's absolutely gorgeous.
There's another version sung by Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, and her vibrato is so OTT that it can't listen to it without reaching for a sick bucket.
I suppose it comes down to taste and what you're used to hearing/expect to hear. ---------- YouTube SlimHarpMick
too much of anything is too much-I am still trying to develop a throat vibrato skill and if and when I do will only occasionally use it-I love to hold the 4 draw for as long as I can but I realize that can get old for somebody listening to me play
OK, just to clarify what I was listening to wasn't blues. The notes were played clean and on pitch and I could not criticise the ability of the player (I'm still naming no names because I don't want the thread to drift into the inevitable debate about jazz players, OBs and all that stuff we've discussed ad nauseum - suffice to say it wasn't Howard).
But the vibrato on every note of significant duration was just distracting. It actually made me skip the album after two tracks. Everything's fine in moderation, but this went beyond 'individual style' it was too much for my tastes.
Mick - I think your example (obscure though it is - well at least in the context of a forum of harp players) is a good one. The harp has so many similarities to the human voice that I think it should be treated very much the same in performance. Subtle vibrato can improve it - excessive vibrato makes you sound like Larry the Lamb.
Last Edited by on Aug 09, 2011 7:13 AM
MrV - Yeah I agree with you totally. Too many players use to much vibrato, too much of the time. Like anything it's a tool that should be used to add colour here and there. Not to saturate the sound completely. I'd also say the same about ANY effect, whether achieved through technique eg, wah-wahs, warbles, flutters, trills, etc. Or through the use of electronics eg, delay, reverb, overdrive, distortion, octaver, etc.
One of the things I like about this forum is I discover things I was doing that I didn't even know I was doing. I've never actually consciously thought that the technique was called vibrato or where it was generated. It was just something I did. And yes like all such techniques there is a time and a place. ---------- LSC
I would definitely say that warbles are far more overused than overblows, let alone bad overblows. Which is more repulsive to listen to? I vote excessive warbles, but that's just me.
Randomly pick a song with harmonica. The odds of there being an overblow are close to zero. The odds of a warble are probably over 50%. If you only choose from popular songs you'd hear on the radio or satellite, I bet it is closer to 90% w warbles and maybe 1% obs.
Seriously, what popular harp songs have obs? I can't think of any. Every (ok, almost every) bar rock harp solo has a warble, though.
And I bet any really bad ob examples are from players who are bad at a lot of things (count me in). ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
No, you have to weight the annoyance factor to calculate which technique is most overused. I don't think it is just a matter of the number of times you hear it. Bad overblows are like 10x obnoxious when compared to overused trills or warbles. They make people want to run from the club screaming.
No I don't as that is offtopic. The discussion is overuse. Warbles are used far more commomlythan bad obs. Annoyance factor isn't an on yopic variable. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Over use of over bends or tremolo is annoying as people who still classify over bends as painful to listen to....When will you understand that these notes EXISTS as much as the other juicy bends that every one use for the blues?....If the guy who has discovered the bends on a diatonic was as close minded as some of you guys, the diatonic harmonica would have been still an instrument to play traditional songs... I agree with Jason Ricci, Carlos del Runco, Jerry Portnoy, Joe Filisko and Howard Levy.
Coming back to the blues tremolo, I should say the following thing: nothing more annoying than a singer who over use the vibrato, like grand pa or grand ma singing like a sheep...It applies to any instruments including harmonica....
THIS IS NOT BECAUSE YOU CAN THAT YOU SHOULD ---------- Never try to be as good as someone else, succeed to be the best player you can be!
Sorry for violating thread rules. Yes, some players overuse vibrato, even some who have great vibrato! As with most things related to harmonica playing, less is more.
warbles are easy to do but I dont OB yet so dont really recognize those-I love to hold 4 draw as long as I can and its my strongest skill but dont want people listening to say is not getting old?
everything in moderation , like any technique it can be used to define your style , or just get overused because it may be the in thing or someone said to use it to sound like , or to sound like a pro etc etc . it always best in my book to use techniques in such a way to compliment the melody and phrasing of whatever piece of music whether it's blues ,rock jazz , classical etc . I mainly play guitar in a rockabilly band and also blues , there is certain phrases or licks ,riffs used and certain techniques to define that sound and style , i for some it could get really tedious if all i played was mystery train on a hollow body guitar for example . basically no technique is bad so long as it's used in the right place and done tastefully . Sonnyboy is one of my fave blues musicians , not just what he does on the harp but the whole attitude and groove to the songs , also if you listen to howling wolf and Junior wells , you can see where the influence in that type of groove , less is more ,but say somethiing with it that counts rather than just a string of techniques with no meaning or direction .
I thought that I was alone in thinking that vibrato is often overused. I have heard skilled players that just start to sound annoying. However, I do like vibrato used sparingly, for accent.
This is refreshing to learn others feel the same!
Now, how about too much "fuzz" distortion when playing amplified? I prefer a mild distortion that breaks up when you push it, preferably with good lows, not constant fuzzy sounding high mids distortion. Anyone else have similar taste? ----------
There is a chromatic player on youtube. I think his username is Alliax. Never liked his playing. Just watch any of his videos and you'll see he takes easy, emotionall jazz songs and use so much vibrato on them that they just sound wrong :S
Im quite new to Harp playing and Blues music in genral, ALex Paclin uses a lot of Vibrato in his playing ( dont what im saying is right but I thinnk he does) and I absolutely love it!!! its super smooth and havent heard m(any) players play a Vibrato like he does!
Here's an example of a very famous harmonica player who does NOT use vibrato as "tasteful embellishment for emphasis." He stomps down on it, mashes it into the dust. Does he...ah....suck? Discuss:
I don't always understand discussions/debates of this nature. These things are so subjective. No one is the same in anything and that means some will be better and some will be worse. "BUT," at the same time there will be those who like the worse just as much as those who like the better. It's all a matter of taste.
It's like saying you don't like a particular artist because he uses too much red in his paintings, or paints too many nature scenes. Meanwhile someone else could say that is what they love about them. ---------- Tommy
the wolf played simple and he is one of best to imitate because his riffs are fairly easy to figure out but he had a vibrato like no one else and he used it well
Personal taste isn't personal and it isn't fixed - it can be "learnt" and it can be universal.
To expand a bit on what HarmonicaMick says, in the 17th century vibrato was considered poor taste, as was the violin or fiddle - they were for the plebs. Nowadays vibrato on the violin is considered essential unless you are recreating ancient music. On the clarinet vibrato is considered bad taste (Acker Bilk was reviled by classical musicians), while on the oboe it's considered to be as essential as on the violin.
Early in the 20th c., violinists often played classical music in a distinctly gypsy style (sliding to the right note, that kind of thing), which is considered very bad taste today.
The Wolf gets my vote. ----------
Andrew. ----------------------------------------- Those who are tardy do not get fruit cup.
Last Edited by on Aug 10, 2011 7:01 AM
I enjoyed listening to the Wolf, but yes he was using vibrato by the bucketload. So now I'm wondering what the difference is?
Well my first thought is that first the harp is being used very differently. The recordings I was talking about were instrumentals; the harp being used as the lead in the place of the vocal, there was no respite from the constant vibrato. Wolf's lines are short and repetitive - the other player's lines were long, exploratory improv so maybe that affected how much attention they drew from me?
This is undoubtedly a matter of the style. It's something that I hear in the playing of a number of players. Non blues, clean sounding, jazzy, poppy instrumental pieces.
There's an interesting wikipaedia entry on this, dealing with the history of vibrato in music and the debate around it's usage. I found this section particularly poignant:
Vibrato's use in various musical genres
Vibrato is sometimes thought of as an effect added onto the note itself, but in some cases it is so fully a part of the style of the music that it can be very difficult for some performers to play without it. The jazz tenor sax player Coleman Hawkins found he had this difficulty when requested to play a passage both with and without vibrato by the producer of a children's jazz album to demonstrate the difference between the two. Despite his technique, he was unable to play without vibrato. A symphony saxophonist was brought in to play the part.
Many classical musicians, especially singers and string players, have a similar problem. The violinist and teacher Leopold Auer, writing in his book Violin Playing as I Teach It (1920), advised violinists to practise playing completely without vibrato, and to stop playing for a few minutes as soon as they noticed themselves playing with vibrato in order for them to gain complete control over their technique.
I didn't mean to imply classical musicians use unchanging vibrato - it's used in differing amounts with different speeds, depending on the music. It can be used to give the illusion of a crescendo, for example, if you're blowing as hard as you can already. (I'm specifically thinking of the end of one of Vivaldi's oboe sonatas as played by Heinz Holliger, but I haven't had a copy of that record for 20 years) The Wolf is using it for power in that way, in a musical context where it is not out of place.
Using the same vibrato all the time, if it's not subliminal to begin with, can get on one's nerves.
I've got no idea how this is supposed to be answering the original question. I suppose I still say, it depends on the vibrato, and it depends on the player. ----------
Andrew. ----------------------------------------- Those who are tardy do not get fruit cup.
Last Edited by on Aug 10, 2011 7:14 AM
it is interesting to me that although wolf could play guitar he used hubert sumlin to play instead but chose to play harp himself instead of hiring someone to blow harp-its true he uses vibrato alot but he did it so well he was a great bluesman-my favorite of all time and that is a very difficult decision to arrive at with muddy waters,little walter,etc
I've always encouraged harmonica players to develop strong, well-modulated (rather than rough) vibrato, and to approach vibrato ONLY after first developing a good, strong, vibratoless sound. Many harp players constrict their air passages when they apply vibrato, so it's essential to begin with a big, full sound--or so I've argued. It's also important to develop enough control so that one can hit a vibrato-less note, then slowly kick in the vibrato. That's standard technique for tenor sax players and it's a good thing for harp players to learn.
Andrew is absolutely right: each instrument, in any given era and idiom, has a "preferred" sound--a sound that the majority of good players think of as an ideal. And these tastes change over time. Sidney Bechet's sound--incredibly heavy vibrato--on the clarinet (or was it soprano sax??) sounds corny to many contemporary ears; it's also thrilling. Which is to say, it all depends how you look at things.
For the record, Sonny Boy II on his Trumpet sessions, and especially on an F harp, has some of the most intense, Bechet-like vibrato anybody has ever recorded on the harmonica. I think it sounds great. But it's very, very aggressive--the farthest thing in the world from "tastefull embellishment for emphasis"--and given what Verylong has said in this thread, I'm astonished that, of all players, he invokes Sonny Boy in support of his claim. Carey Bell, Junior Wells, Cotton--all of them have more gentle vibrato that SBW. Only Big Walter comes close.
Last Edited by on Aug 10, 2011 9:02 AM
Yeah, you're bang on the money there. The Chandos recording I referred to is played on period instruments - viols - which, as I expect you know, aren't capable of producing any significant degree of vibrato. As such, Kirkby's voice would probably sound out of place if she overdid it.
But, to get back on topic, she weaves vibrato into the longer notes, which is what a lot of good players do, regardless of style or era of music.
To my mind, it's just a way of adding interest and an almost human sound to a longer - and maybe otherwise slightly naked and boring sounding - note. ---------- YouTube SlimHarpMick
Adam - I know, it was an odd choice and perhaps in hindsight not the best example. I was speaking about about a specific incident - I couldn't listen anymore to the tracks on my ipod- and dammit I'll name names - it was Frederic Yonnet - and the SBWII track was next on my 'harmonica' playlist and was a refreshing change.
I can't remember the specific track, but I recall that Sonny Boy was using his full trick bag. There was indeed vibrato and wahs aplently. The distinction (and this is the point I seem to be failing to get across) is that it wasn't universally applied to every blessed note. Nothing wrong with a strong vibrato: I'm not saying it sounds bad, just a bit of variety goes a long way. with the Yonnet tracks it wasn't tail ending a note, it was applied from the start of every single held note and as soon as I became conscious of that fact I couldn't listen anymore.
Last Edited by on Aug 10, 2011 10:14 AM
Of course it is possible to use vibrato to compensate for difficulties in technique when trying to hit a note 'spot on' by modulating the note while searching for the correct pitch. The following offering by Michel Herblin is a fine example of quality vibrato used sparingly in a beautiful melody.
Yonnet is a formidable player with a strong reputation. I haven't listened to much of his stuf; the one YouTube clip that I've heard--his version of a Stevie Wonder song--struck me as somewhat heavier on stage theatrics than on the subtleties of blues playing. But here's the thing: heavy vibrato can be a way of making your sound instantly identifiable. And instant identifiability--a sonic footprint that says "This is ME"--is something I value greatly. The French philosopher Jaques Attali also writes in his book, NOISE, that we should pay careful attention to whatever it is that offends us, sonically--whatever we're tempted to call "noise," or "tasteless," or overdone, or [substitute your favorite term of disparagement]. Sometimes there's a prophetic edge to such things. People with "off" or otherwise offensive or "thin" or "showoffy" sounds are sometimes bringing us news of how the world really is that we'd rather not attend to.
Familiar old pleasures have their place, of course, as do familiar and reassuringly stable categories of judgment. They reassure us that the tradition IS, in fact, a tradition, and still has force; they reassure us of the fact that culture has continuity. But the age we live in, and have lived in for much of the past century, is an age where modernity, "the new," continually clamors for attention: not just in art (i.e., for our purposes, in blues music), but especially in technology. For god's sake, I don't know how to text! That makes me terribly old-fashioned. I remember the world before color TV and ATMs. And yet, as we know, there are some people who believe that most of what is brilliant and enduring in the world of blues harmonica was recorded in that era: the 1950s. I don't. I believe that what is brilliant and enduring in THAT era was brilliant and enduring precisely because it registered the force of technological and attitudinal modernity. "Rocket 88" is Exhibit A. Now that song--the first rock n' roll song--sounds old fashioned, "classic," but back then, it was absolutely cutting-edge stuff, down to the very title of the song, which invoked a recent-vintage Oldsmobile that was itself graced with a proto-Space-Age world-of-the-flying-saucer name that conjured up speed, style, and hip modernity. The jive accent in which the song was sung, with all of its excess "r"'s, was hip black speech for the time. (Now it sounds terribly dated, the way that early 1980s hip hop language sounds dated. Fresh and chill and twenty-three skidoo.) And I happen to think that we should always be on the lookout for, and receptive to, cutting-edge stuff.
I'm always open to the idea that there's a new cutting edge that I haven't quite become aware of--and that it just might be OUR classic stuff. One way of identifying it, in our blues harp world, is that a certain number of subcultural taste-makers reject it. You can see that happening in this thread. The same thread in the year 1955 would have consisted of attacks against the fools who thought that Little Walter, with his insanely overdriven small-amp sound, was the next John Lee Williamson, rather than a flashy pretender to the throne. Amps, not overblows, would have been the line drawn in the sand.
Last Edited by on Aug 10, 2011 11:21 AM
Well, I'm far from a conservative blues purist - or 'cultural taste maker'. I've tried to make it clear throughout that this was not a 'blues' thing - classic or modern. The reason I can't name the SBWII song is because I rarely listen to blues and could only name about 3 Sonny Boy songs at the best of times. The fact that I was listening to a harmonica playlist is surprising on its own as my ipod is 99% alternative, rock and funk. There's probably more Celtic folk on there than blues.
I also took great pains not to disrespect Yonnet as a player, recognising that this was about me as a listener - and less so about him as a player - that's why I avoided naming him as far as I could: Yonnet clearly has great skill both as a player and a showman, but there is an element of his style that I, personally, do not like. The Michel Herblin track that Grey Owl posted was more to my taste - very similar style, but executed differently.
I was just curious whether other people found that overuse of vibrato as distracting as me. (Note - 'overuse', not 'use of' per se or 'use of strong vibrato')
Complete tangent: my last capcha code was X Metal - I liked that!
Last Edited by on Aug 10, 2011 11:31 AM
I was JUST about to bring up myman Howlin' Wolf when I saw kudzrunner's post. "over-use"? Perhaps....but that's what STYLE is all about. Luckily, our style's differ....or music would be quite a bit different.
i remember the howlin wolf question as i think a while ago i brought up the subject of The wolfs playing style , and remember that Adam agreed with me as far as the relevance and tatse of his playing . to me this kind of blues is where my head is truly at , and also the whole sound rather than spotlighting on a particular instrument , i know this is predominantly a harp forum , and for that i love the way the harp fits in with the song , you only have to look at wolf and see he's using the harp to in a way that sounds like a moan or a howl using vibrato to get the sound to carry across , i love this song because it's got that menacing feel to it ,while being laid back . I understand not everyone will like it , and i don't expect it either , after all personal opinion and choice is a wonderful thing In my opinion , if listen to modern blues and sometimes there is too much going on and too many notes , as if it's a battleground of egos ,playing everthing they know in one solo , and missing the feel completely , epsecially a lot of late 60's british blues . luckily there is some great blues musicians in england that have got a really good feel , check out , west weston , big joe louis , big boy bloater , paul lamb for a few names that are on the list of ones to go and see live !
Last Edited by on Aug 10, 2011 6:09 PM
Here is some extreme, over-the-top SUPER vibrato. But it's used for effect and sounds GREAT. But to use it in more than one song in a show would ruin it.
BTW: What key harp is that? Is it special tuned? I've tried to tab/play that with no luck. It's been a while. I don't remember if I got his repeating passage down, but I know the solo completelt threw me.
Last Edited by on Aug 10, 2011 11:02 PM
Wow, now that vibrato was driving me nuts, only made it through one bar. I'm pretty okay with Yonnet's vibrato, though. He plays a little over the top sometimes for me, but the vibrato doesn't bother me.
@ Andrew A little bit harsh maybe, but I can see where you're coming from. There was a lot of work on the at the start of the solo on a rather repetive series of -6*,-6 trailing off into-6*/6,-6*/-5,-6*/-6, -6*-5, -6*-6+6, then later on multiple rapid -6*/-6/-6*/-5 phrases which was used quite a lot.
Don't get me wrong they're nice riffs on a great song but when overused they lose there effectiveness. The change in harp half way through the solo didn't add that much change of flavour. It seemed to me as if he wanted to break out at some stage but continued to mark time with re-workings on the theme. ----------
I just listened to some more of Jefferson Goncalves' stuff. I generally like his music, but I'm disappointed to find that he always uses that extreme vibrato. (I don't really like it, either, but I DO like it in "All Along the Watchtower.") I don't think you would say he overUSES vibrato; rather he overDOES it.
