Seven.Oh.Three.
130 posts
Aug 04, 2011
10:22 PM
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I really hope my intention with this thread shines through.
I started playing about nine months ago. I went through a few different models (special 20's, Marine band standard, marine band crossover and a golden melody) and really liked the marine band. Yes, I understand some like it the way it is and some like to modify them. Basically, I loved the crossover. Does pretty much everything I could want from an ootb harp. But I mostly play standard marine bands. trust me the standard marine band isn't the limiting factor in my playing : )
I rounded out a full set of harps with a few odd keys from Todd Parrot (three MBD's). And was again amazed with how well they played. I'd like to recommend any newish players buy harps from guys on this board just for the contact and conversation. While talking with Todd I mentioned a curiosity of a particular harp and he suggest picking up a custom for a few bucks more. Which set me on the path to Randy Sandoval at Genesis Harmonicas. I ordered a Marine band standard with rounded tines in the key of A. About ten days later it came in the mail. This harmonica is absolutely amazing. It completely blows any harp I own out of the water.
All this got me thinking about the cost of custom harmonicas. If I had bought crossovers for $60 a piece then ordered combs for roughly $40 a piece I would have had a top notch out of the box harp that had the same appearance as my custom. But at the cost of $100. I'm well aware there are less expensive combs. But there are far more expensive combs also. But it really couldn't touch the harp Randy built. And his only cost me $35 more than a crossover plus comb.
I guess the point of all this rambling is that considering how much time, work and energy goes into these harps they're actually really affordable.
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Big Daddy Ray
104 posts
Aug 05, 2011
12:03 AM
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I, too am a proud over of one of his harps and a few gorgeous Corian combs. I have one of his GM's. Actually it was one I had recently purchased and took to him.
I live about 30-45 minutes away depending on traffic and he was gracious enough to allow me to stick around as he worked on it which took several hours. The passion he has for his work is very obvious and considering the cost of harps, materials for combs, making the combs, the hours of labor put into each harp, the price and the short wait(less than 2 weeks in your case) compared to the waiting time from a certain now nonexistent harp company honestly I think the client is getting the better deal.
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Seven.Oh.Three.
131 posts
Aug 05, 2011
10:36 AM
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Maybe some customizers can chime in here but does anybody know how much time is spent building a custom?
Taking into consideration that they make their own combs, open cover plates (if applicable), drill for nuts and bolts (if applicable), emboss, gap etc etc. I would have to imagine total time spent on one harp has to be near 2-6 hours. But that's a total guess. Subtract cost of parts/supplies and there really doesn't seem to be much mark up.
7.o.3.
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HarpNinja
1562 posts
Aug 05, 2011
11:56 AM
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Great post. For the vast majority of players a harp like yours is moe than enough. The man hours and overhead to make it is very fair.
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Big Daddy Ray
107 posts
Aug 05, 2011
12:19 PM
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703, Randy spent 6-7 hours on mine and he just did lots of reed work and flat sanded one reed plate(possibly both,I forget). There is still a lot more he could have done to the harp. The comb was already made when I got there.
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528hemi
214 posts
Aug 05, 2011
12:32 PM
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I bought a new MB and a MB deluxe and gapped them and they play as well or better then a few customs I had made for me. The customs I bought were not setup for OB's so unless you want a overblow harp all you need to do is a good gapping and you will be happy.
528hemi
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Seven.Oh.Three.
132 posts
Aug 05, 2011
1:59 PM
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528hemi- I've spent a fair amount of time gapping my harps. And there is a great deal of improvement made. Even w/o overblowing I can tell theres a big big difference between a stock gapped harp and this custom. I opened up one of my stock marine bands in the same key and used the custom as a guide. While it still played better than before it didn't have the same responsiveness.
Let's say a customizer gets the new harp for free, the material for the combs is free, all the tooling and supplies magically showed up one day and he doesnt have any cost at all to build a harp. Let say on average he spent just four hours per harp his hourly labor rate would look like this-
Harp cost---- per hour
$250--------- $62
$200--------- $50
$175--------- $43
$150--------- $37
$125--------- $31
$100--------- $25
And thats before you buy and products or base harp to start with. You still need to pay the power bill.
I guess I'm trying to convince myself to buy more custom harps......
7.0.3.
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hvyj
1648 posts
Aug 05, 2011
2:16 PM
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"unless you want a overblow harp all you need to do is a good gapping and you will be happy.'
Not true. I don't OB but my OOB harps (gapped as needed) simply do not have the response, volume, or, most importantly, PRECISION ON THE BENDS that my customs do.
Gapping will improve response to a certain extent, but gapping does not enhance bending precision. Bending to pitch on a good custom harp really has to be experienced to be appreciated.
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Big Daddy Ray
110 posts
Aug 05, 2011
2:35 PM
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703 "While it still played better than before it didn't have the same responsiveness."
Is this in reference to the stock harp that you worked on using the custom as a guide?
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Seven.Oh.Three.
133 posts
Aug 05, 2011
2:50 PM
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BDR- I had a stock harp. I gapped it myself. It was better than before. Then I bought this custom. Using the custom as a template I regapped my stock marine band. While it was better (than the first time When I gapped it blindly) it still doesnt have the same responsiveness as the truely custom harp I just bought.
One of the many reasons I bought a custom was use use it as a template. To be able to gauge what I'd be able to get out of a harp. First thing I did was mimic the gapping from the custom marine band to a stock Marine band in the same key. The custom was still infinantly more responsive. Which tells me there's mire than one factor working here.
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2011 3:03 PM
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HarmonicaMick
272 posts
Aug 05, 2011
6:29 PM
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@ hvyj:
"Not true. I don't OB but my OOB harps (gapped as needed) simply do not have the response, volume, or, most importantly, PRECISION ON THE BENDS that my customs do.
Gapping will improve response to a certain extent, but gapping does not enhance bending precision. Bending to pitch on a good custom harp really has to be experienced to be appreciated."
I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it, but I've never really understood the view that you've put forward here about bending and precision.
I've never owned a custom harp, and even if I did, the same laws of physics would be taking place on a custom as on a stock harp.
One of the ways I practice bends is by sliding them down and then up as if they were being played on a trombone or a violin, i.e. covering all the pitches in between the notes of the scale. I can't see how doing that on a custom would make any difference. If anything, I might just mean that I had to to it slightly differently, which doesn't necessarily equate to more easily.
I'm not trying to plug my YouTube videos, I don't care who does or doesn't see them. But have a look at my Godfather theme video, which uses all the bends on the 3 draw to a very high degree of accuracy. The harp used is an 1847 Silver, but I can do that on just about any old piece of junk.
It's just a question of practice, after which, you can just - well - do it.
Forgive my slightly stroppy sounding stance, but I really do think that far too much emphasis is placed on the importance of custom harps as they relate to a player's progress. That's just my view, no antagonism intended.
EDIT: I tell a lie, I did buy an Antony Danecker Big River, which sounded very nice indeed, but I can't say it had any effect on how I played bent notes.
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YouTube SlimHarpMick
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2011 6:32 PM
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12gagedan
109 posts
Aug 05, 2011
7:32 PM
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Mick,
Your post reeks of good sense. As a service to the forum, I shall preemptively dismiss your endorsement of "practice" and argue for superior instruments above all else (read with heavy sarcasm). I will especially speak for the newest members of the harmonica fraternity, and suggest that money, not practice, is the key to success in music and all other things.
p.s. I write this as I'm trying to re-learn to play, again, following a very eye-opening thrashing I received from Mr. Ricci. I pretty much have to re-learn it all, as my intonation has been chronically a bit flat. I'm doing so with Marine Bands and a tuner. Why? Because if I can do it on a Marine Band, then I can do it on anything.
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12gagedan's YouTube Channel
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Seven.Oh.Three.
134 posts
Aug 05, 2011
9:03 PM
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This thread wasn't started to argue whether or not customs are better or to say that customs are the only way to go. I think everybody understands that you cn play on an ootb harp. I also don't think you'll find anybody to disagree that practicing makes you better.
This thread was started because I was amazed in the differences between a custom and an ootb harp. It was stunning to play. And because If how it plays it made me think about how much time went into it and the relative cost of it all.
Prior to playing it I was amazed at the prices of customs. Thinking who'd pay that much for that?!? What a waste of money. But my wanting to fool around with my harps made be buy one to study. And it changed my view point (on the cost) 180 degrees.
Does any of this say that playing a custom will instantly make you a better player? No. Does any of this say you will never reach you goals with out a custom? No. Does any of this say that customs are better is every aspect than a ootb harp? No.
What it does say is this: I am personally impressed with the craftsmanship, work and final product produced. I personally like this harp over any I own. I can't afford a whole set. But even still think they're a bargain for what does into making one.
This thread wasn't intended to become a ootb harp versus custom harp thread. If that's what you're looking to read and post about perhaps you should go to one of the many pre-existing threads.
I only want to applaud the work done by these guys.
7.o.3.
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12gagedan
116 posts
Aug 05, 2011
9:20 PM
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I apologize sincerely 703. I'm in a mood tonight. A mood to give back some nonsense to the internet gods.
I too have purchased a few custom harmonicas. I agree that they are indeed superior instruments, more responsive and capable of achieving things that are very difficult with OOTB harps. I appreciate the craftsmanship and all of the work/study that's gone into the advancement of the harmonica.
I question their necessity for the average player, and I do so vocally. I understand that this isn't what this thread is about, but you need to consider the noob. He doesn't necessarily have the same perspective that you or I bring to the discussion. A few discussions about custom harmonicas (they are plentiful) without an occasional gut check may indeed lead folks down the path of seeking mastery through purchase.
I found Mick's post and his video interesting, and I posted comically, and with thought towards what I explain in the paragraph above. I apologize for the distraction of the thread. I'm not the first, nor will I be the last to do so.
Best,
Dan G.
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12gagedan's YouTube Channel
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Big Daddy Ray
112 posts
Aug 05, 2011
9:35 PM
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703, yes there are many factors that are not noticible just by looking at the reeds and such. Different customizers have different ways of doing what they do. Randy has been doing this a long time and it still took him about 6 or so hours to do what he did and there was a lot more he could have done. If trying to copy what was done just by looking there is a lot you will miss. Especially if you spend less time on it than he did. Not knocking the work you did to.
As for the other replies,,,customs don't make it any easier INSTANTLY. One thing I noticed immediately was less breath was needed, and I used very little to begin with,,,,then I also noticed less tongue movement was needed to make the reeds do what I wanted. So I basically had to reteach my tongue to not move as far as with the harp before it was customized. The response is so much better and so much louder and he didn't even open the back for more volume. I remember the first time I really played it the next day and the volume actually startled me enough that I almost dropped the harp,lol.
Dan...I too recently found out my tone was not what I thought once I started recording just to listen for the heck of it. My tone sounds much richer in my head and through the use of a tuning program I found out a couple of my harps were out of tune and tuning them makes so much difference. Randy tuned the one he customized for me. It was way out and I didn't know it and the difference when he was done was like night and day. I have been working on my ear as well.
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Seven.Oh.Three.
135 posts
Aug 05, 2011
9:48 PM
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I hope I didn't come across as being an ass or upset. I'm really not.
In most ways I consider myself a beginner player. That keeps me motivated. In no way shape or form am I at a point in my playing where I actually think "gee this such and such harmonica I'd holding me back". Because it's not. (it's the dumb-ass holding the thing) But I do enjoy opening things up. Seeing how they work. Fixing/modifying/improving when and where I can (I'm a mechanic by trade). So I felt it necessary to have a test subject. And my experience with this custom has showed me more than I expected.
Here's the beginner warning:
IF YOUR NEW TO HARMONICA DON'T SPEND YOUR MONEY ON A CUSTOM!!!! ; )
Seemingly every time there's a thread about customs it becomes a which is better thread or what do you need thread. I thought this was a different spin on a run down topic.
7.o.3.
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Seven.Oh.Three.
136 posts
Aug 05, 2011
9:56 PM
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@ BDR- in no way do I expect to achieve the same results as Randy. Mostly I wanted to see how he drilled the comb, gapped the reeds and look at embossing first hand. And in all honesty..... That's a great excuse to buy a custom harp!!
I have zero aspiration to be a harmonica customizer. I would like to know how to do sone stuff and having a reference is pretty important to me.
7.o.3.
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HarmonicaMick
274 posts
Aug 06, 2011
7:18 AM
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@ 7.o.3.:
I'm sorry that I appear to have upset you by expressing an opinion that didn't quite fit the parameters that you have in mind for this thread.
However, you may have noticed that once a thread has been started, it often meanders around the initial topic. One doesn't own the thread: it is a conversation and, as such, is a naturally fluid thing.
Nevertheless, I shall try to remember to keep my opinions away from threads that you have started, just in case they stray from how you think the discussion should be going.
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YouTube SlimHarpMick
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Seven.Oh.Three.
138 posts
Aug 06, 2011
7:57 AM
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HarmonicaMic- Did you read either of my last two posts? I clearly stated I'm not "upset". I'm aware of how threads go. And as I posted in an earlier post "Seemingly every time there's a thread about customs it becomes a which is better thread or what do you need thread. I thought this was a different spin on a run down topic." which this thread was starting to become.
I don't want any member to avoid my threads. I respect everybodies opinions here and know I can benefit from them all. I'm sorry if my post came across as being upset or uptight. That wasn't my intentions. Sorry.
7.o.3.
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groyster1
1252 posts
Aug 06, 2011
9:12 AM
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I have a few custom harps and they definitely take much less breath than ootb harps do-but I think its good to practice on ootb harps and all your harps certainly dont need to be custom harps-as adam mentioned work with manual steering before you go to power steering-the workout develops your skill
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