I am sure that some or many of you will know about this, but I haven't come across it in the forum or anywhere else and I just tried it and was blown away by the difference...
I had been aware for a while how much louder an amp sounds when its up on a chair or milk crate, but when you tilt it back at a 45 degree angle the effect is even greater. The old super reverb I just inherited has two metal struts on the side which swing out to support the amp when its leaned back; it was no sweat to make up the same for my little five watter. They swing out of the way when not in use and the difference it makes is huge.
Its a no brainer really; thinking of the sound as traveling in expanding circles like a stone thrown into a pond (but in three dimensions), if the amp is on the ground the speaker is only inches from the floor and at least half of the sound goes straight into the floor, to bounce back up and create waves which conflict with and even cancel the original source. As someone who plays in a band that is too loud and always having trouble hearing myself, the difference is chalk and cheese. I set the amp up in front of me like a foldback, point it at my head, run a line out or mic for the PA if needed and viola! The amp sounds brighter, punchier and plenty loud enough to hear myself clearly. I'm hearing harmonic overtones and subtle tonal differences that I've never had in a live situation before.
Its one thing to be able just to hear yourself through the mix and another to hear yourself clearly; it makes everything way easier! Its a mod that involves no electronics or great expense too. ---------- Lucky Lester
I tend to find that the issue is less about any kind of phase cancellation and more about the brighter hi frequency generated at the centre of the speaker cone. This is very directional, guitar players like SRV went to lengths to try and avoid this, but for harp I actually think, that for monitoring the amp & intelligibilty, its a good thing to hear this. Even with a speaker array with a good field of dispersion, you may still find that for best fidelity, even moving your head 6 inches out of the line of fire dulls off the sound from your perspective (but not the audiences).
Of course, to avoid feedback, you may not be able to constantly play with your head & mic right in front of the speakers...so I tend to position myself where the sound is "good enough" but I can occasionally dip into the more directional hi frequencies if required...there's still a degree of a "leap of faith".
I'm often surprised when, even respected players, don't recognise the sound they make on playback...usually because they stand right in front of the amp, which is on the floor & only hear the less directional lower frequencies and "reflected" sound. I've been in a studio where the live sound captured from the amp has been as close as dammit to what comes out of the speakers but the player in question just won't have it, "naw, it sounds thinner & brighter"...yes, compared to your perspective, but not to an audience's.
Small amps, I always point them right at my head, for the same reason.
Last Edited by on Jul 29, 2011 5:24 AM
I put a set of Fender 14" tilt back legs on my Fender Princeton Reverb Reissue and the tone of the amp opens up beautifully when it's tilted back.
For me, it's not so much a question of better volume as it is improved tonal quality, although the tilt back probably helps volume, too. I almost always tilt my PRRI when I use it.
I just repainted an re-carpeted a room in my house, no furniture, no carpet. Just bare floors and walls. The sound is a billion times louder. It also has a better tone too it. I get that tile bathroom effect.
The purpose of the Beam Blocker is to do the exact opposite of the effect that Didjcripey, HVYJ & Miles describe.
The beam blocker is based on the fact that a plucked string instrument, by the nature of the signal, has a very pronounced "front" to the note..say "p-ling" to yourself. The area around the voice coil in the middle of the speaker cone projects the highs in a very directional & "beamy" manner and can be unhelpful in taming the "p" of the pling. SRV used to put duct tape accross the speaker grill cloth in the same manner as a beam blocker, on occasions his amp would be set facing the ceiling...there's video footage of Freddie King performing with his amp turned at 90degrees from the audience, presumably for the same reason, Kendrick K-Spot amps have the middle of the "K" over the voice coil to act like a beam blocker.
Ted Weber contributed an awful lot to de-mystifying speakers, a terrific amp/gear forum and encouraging the modern craze for building tube amps (though Ted opted for the "value for money", easy access route, rather than the higher cost, bespoke route, like Kendrick, THD & Victoria) but he wasn't a specialist in amplifying harp.
Harp doesn't have that "pling", notes do tend to start off at a higher level than at the end, but it's much more gradual a decline and less harsh to start with...say "Waaaaugh", or "Hufff" to yourself? For harp, this beamy-ness tends to actually work for us, rather than against us.
Last Edited by on Jul 29, 2011 7:09 AM
If you're gonna pay attention to that stuff ( and why not? ), then make sure that any effects or volume pedals,etc. that you normally plan to use are in the chain when you're adjusting things. Also, imo, if you set small amps on bar chairs with upholstered seat cushions you may suck some life outa the amp. Overall, I've become a little bit of a skeptic about how much of this the crowd actually notices if you're playin' loud in a noisy club. Ya' do the best you can. Others have alluded to this in recent threads, i.e. HarpNinja.
i play through a vox vt-30, and on the vox forums they're adamant that you should put it on a stand to get the best sound. so i picked up this one and it really does make quite a difference. it gets it off the floor in addition to tilting it, and the boom arm makes it easy to mic the amp properly without needed a separate stand (my band mics all the amps). the whole thing folds up to about the same size as a mic stand. and it's also a handy place to hang your hat or other garments when things start to heat up.
highly recommended.
ps. they also sell this stand without the boom arm. this version, with the boom, is currently on sale for the same price, where it's normally an additional $10.
Last Edited by on Jul 29, 2011 10:58 AM
Gary, I am fairly new to this forum. And I am old. I have a Vox 15,that I used twice for practices and was very disappointed in the easy feedback, and lack of volume. Can you direct me to the Vox discussion(which page here?) ?I would love to know what settings harp players are using. Thanks
the one thing that is missing is that what you hear and what the audience hears are different.
if you are in a situation where there is no mic on the amp and you are playing a large amp in a moderate space, then the only way to tell is what is going on in the middle of the audience.
if you are playing a small amp and it through the pa via a mic, then that is the sound system.
either way, not much way to know what the audience hears out front, and you need to hear just enough to play well.. but not enough to hear if your projection is good out front.
makes it tough to control the situation, but that is the thing that matters.
record the performances from the average audience point of view, and that is what matters.
Hearing well does make a huge difference -but that's true for the whole band and why going smaller and running through the PA is important. When does the drummer actually hear the harp enough to communicate? What's great is to have the guitar low enough to run it (hear it!) through the monitors. When does THAT happen?
The best thing you can do is always lift the amp off the ground, especially if your amp is not mic'd...If you are mic'd, place you amp on the side of the stage, shooting across the stage and elevated...this way, the speaker is facing you ear(not your ankles) and everyone else can hear you as well. then just trust the sound guy.....
I have a 16w amp built by a custom amp builder for me...We talked about all the things that are good and bad about amps that harp players use and came up with an amp that fits the bill.... In the gigging situations that i'm in, i usually run in 1/2 power mode. 8w!! I usually have the back of the amp closed but he gave me the option to open the back up for bigger rooms.
Greg Heumann has a great explanation of amps and mics that you should look at! ---------- JB http://www.facebook.com/jbharmonica jbustillos@gmail.com
"When does the drummer actually hear the harp enough to communicate?"
When the harp player uses a big enough amp so that the harp is sonically balanced with the rest of the amped instruments on stage. To be balanced, it is not just a question of volume--your amp has to be moving enough air to achieve balance with the other amps. This is one of the reasons i don't subscribe to the "use a small amp and mic it" philosophy. But, YMMV.
".this way, the speaker is facing you ear(not your ankles)"
I don't want any amp at ear level out of concern for preservation of my hearing. Hard rocking amplified gigs take their toll on hearing anyway without actually pointing an amp at your ears.
When does the drummer actually hear the harp enough to communicate? "When the harp player uses a big enough amp so that the harp is sonically balanced with the rest of the amped instruments on stage." The alternative does depend on a pro PA scenario, which is the exception. My point was that if "--your amp has to be moving enough air to achieve balance with the other amps" it's tough to hear much of the spectrum the OP was referring to -especially on drums. All said, I carry 4-10's to the gig because I know how it's gonna be.
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2011 10:57 AM
@JBharmonica 'the best thing you can do is always lift the amp off the ground'; I find that tilting the amp back sounds better and louder than just lifting it. In my situation, I used to have it up on a chair and was having problems hearing it; by tilting it back I'm not even driving it as hard and the rest of the band say they can hear me better too.
@hvyi; what does YMMV mean? ---------- Lucky Lester
I've said it a zillion times. The drummer is NOT the boss of the show. I am the boss of the show, I got the money, I booked the gigs, and he/she will execute as ordered. He/she will play with brushes ALL the time or I will fire his ass on the spot. Once almighty drummer is in line, el basso profundo can be dealt with next. Then the entire show takes on a new perspective and the harmonica can be heard very well through a small amp. Big venue? Have sound man mike instruments and demand that the harp be the loudest instrument in the band. If he doesn't like that and won't take orders, then walk out and keep the deposit. (that should be in your written agreement anyway). Wasting time trying to "reason" with these people is insane. A band is a benevolent dictatorship and I am the tyrant leader..you don't like that, then do NOT get involved with me in the first place. I am the one with the gold, therefore I make the golden rules! Over the long run, club owners as well as the customers will love it...(they just don't know it yet since they have no frame of reference). They may hate my music and me as well, but they won't hate the volume level.
---------- Democracy==> 2 wolves and a sheep voting on what is for dinner. Liberty==> A well armed sheep contesting the outcome of that vote.
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2011 5:25 PM
i then add a little delay. hard to say what the settings are, but the main control knob is around 10 o'clock, and i adjust the timing so the echo is barely discernable as a separate pulse, and fades after 2 or 3 echos. this part is all approximate, from memory.
yours may sound different due to the smaller speaker in the vt15. but i like the sound of this model a lot. try using the chorus effect instead of delay, too. this gives this cool ethereal sound to quiet songs, and really cuts through the mix on loud ones.
here's a sample of this chorus one. harp solo starts around 1:16.
If your useing any type of bullet mic and have the amp turned up enough to sound good and have it pointed at your head. IT WILL FEED BACK! Tilting it back does make it sound better, but you can't face at you. Place your amp about 2 feet behind and 4 to one side of you. That is a good starting point. Real life on stage experience. The better you hear yourself the more likely are are to feed back. If you are one of these people that seem to have that problem. Keep trying different mic and amp combinations.
@chromatic blues: depends on the amp, the settings, the mic, the room, and how loud you need to be to sound good. As I am running a line out to the PA, house volume is not an issue. I used to have the amp behind and to the side, but I hear myself way better this way, long before feedback. I have also found that driving the amp harder and turning down the volume control at the mic helps me get more volume before feedback. ---------- Lucky Lester
@didjcripey Yeah I totally agree with you on the " it depends on the amp". I really like the sound of a small (5 watt) amp just into its distortion part of the gain. I also like to use a mic without a volume control. Like you said its the combination of it all and figuring out how to make it work. Some combinations are a real pain in the butt. I have a Shure 450 with a date code of 77" on the element. I didn't like at first. It was real hot and breathy sounding. I put a piece of foam in front of the element and that didn't seem to help at all. So I cut a couple small pieces of an old Tee-shirt and put it on both sides of it and it got real muffled and sounded terible. I removed one of the tee-shirt pieces and whole shit! Every where I go every single harp player asked me what kind mic is it. Why? Its perfect! Oh I almost forgot. I wasn't kidding about the 10" speaker. You want it to sound louder. Move more air. I think you can get better tone with a 10" speaker too. You might have to build a cabinet, but it will be worth it! Finally my search is over. That only took 25 years! Not Bad! I have to say (and I never knew this) with the right mic you can make many amps sound like gold!
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2011 4:21 PM
Yep the ten inch speaker for sure. Went down that path, and I did have to build a new cab, it was way worth it; gone from shrill to full and rich. ---------- Lucky Lester
