jonlaing
286 posts
Jul 18, 2011
10:22 AM
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So I just got a Bb Promaster Valved in the mail, and I'm having a bit of trouble with some of the bends, most especially the 7 draw bend. That used be be achieved by the 6OB on a non-valved, and it's one of my favorite notes in 3rd and 12th positions. I find that when I try to bend it down more than a quarter tone, it get an awful squeal. I try being gentler and gentler, but the gentler I get the less you hear the actual not, and the more you hear the squeal, so clearly that isn't the way to go.
Does anyone have any advice?
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Greyowlphotoart
659 posts
Jul 18, 2011
10:59 AM
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I have tried the Promaster 350v in the key of C and I experienced the same problem on all the upper notes. I have played a bit of Chromatic in the past so I was used to the different technique needed to bend. However this did not help me cos whatever I tried wouldn't work.
In frustration I ended up removing the valves from holes 4 to 10 and chose to overblow/draw instead. I found the valved 2 hole blow bend a handy alternative to the 1 hole overblow (which is a bit erratic for me) and it plays ok.
Also the valved 1 hole blow bend was useful to obtain a note not normally available on an unvalved harp.
The 3 hole blow bend doesn't offer much as the same note can be found easily on the draw 2 hole 1/2 bend.
I have since heard that gapping of the reeds might provide a solution but I wouldn't have fancied messing around with gapping with the valves present.
I have also read on the Forum that some recommend cutting a little off the end of the valves so they fall short of the end of the slot.
There did seem to me to be an awful lot of restraining pressure caused by the valves even when blowing/drawing very softly.
I have since bought an unvalved promaster in Bb which plays pretty well though I did need to gap it.
I hope you find a solution and would be interested to hear how you get along. I would like to have another go myself but perhaps with a different brand.
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jonlaing
287 posts
Jul 18, 2011
11:11 AM
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I haven't gotten around to looking inside, so gapping could be a solution, but these days I just kind of assume it's me and not the harmonica. Sadly, I'm right more times than not. Maybe the torsional vibrations could be quelled with a little bit of embossing... would definitely feel more comfortable doing that without the valves, but whatever.
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Kyzer Sosa
990 posts
Jul 18, 2011
2:45 PM
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I had the same problem with my promaster valved... the first valved harp i bought... until i opened it up and gapped the reeds on the 7 a little tighter. worked great for me, and it reassured me i was doing the right thing and that it was the harp getting in my way, not the typical other way around.
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PT
103 posts
Jul 18, 2011
4:35 PM
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The shorter the reed the harder it is to do a single reed bend. Try opening the gaps slightly!!!! If you have a low F or low Eb or low D valve the 7 blow slot and see if you can do it easier. Practice that till you get a feel for what you need to change if anything in your emboucher.
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jonlaing
288 posts
Jul 18, 2011
5:46 PM
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Well I'm going to give all of this a shot. Does anyone think a bit of embossing would help?
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apskarp
509 posts
Jul 18, 2011
11:44 PM
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Actually this is something I was experimenting with yesterday as my "ultrasuede" arrived. I got this squeeling also with some higher reeds (7-9) in my powerbender tuned A-harp.
I experimented with gapping. It seems that if hte gaps are made wider then the amount of bending increases, but at the same time squeeling is increasing. So if hte gaps are made tighter then the squeeling might end but that is because the bendability is decreased. In short it just simply means you can't get to the deep bends where the squeeling starts.
I don't have this problem with my Lee Oskar harp and there are two things that might affect it:
1)Either the difference of the reed profile make them squeel less - which I doubt as it should be the other way around with shorter and wider Lee Oskar reeds.
2)The other possibility is that I have embossed my SP20 originally for OB-setup. It means that it has really tight tolerances which may cause the squeeling with valved bends as the torsional vibrations are more bound to hit the slots...
So this makes me think that with half-valved harps it might be better to have them not so airtight. I guess this is the reason the valves are supposed to be left a little too short so that it leaks some air.
Please tell me whether this makes any sense? Is this theory consistent with your experiences too?
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jonlaing
289 posts
Jul 19, 2011
12:28 AM
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I've noticed when setting up harps for OB's that if you don't do a full slot emboss, you highly run the risk for torsional vibration. So maybe a full slot emboss is the answer? That will be my last resort if it continues to elude me.
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apskarp
510 posts
Jul 19, 2011
2:08 AM
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I've done the full slot embossing with UST so it isn't that. (Of course one can speculate how well the embossing is done..)
Another thing I just noticed is that I tend to use same kind of embouchure as with OB's - the muscle memory tries to use the technique you are familiar with... When doing the bends more subtly the squeeling doesn't happen so easily. So part of it is certainly the embouchure. But it's not all as the Lee Oskar doesn't squeel...
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HarpMan Freeman
169 posts
Jul 19, 2011
4:13 AM
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When you say "HalfValve Bends"; I assume you are referring to Blow Bends.
I am experiencing blow bend squeals on the Seydel Session Steel which is half-valved.
I am wondering if the problem comes from where and how the reed is attached in relationship to the slot.
The squeal certainly sounds like the reed is touching the slot somewhere and I can only assume it is touching near the rivet end.
I've used nail polish over the rivets and it still squeals.
The only way I've been able to avoid it is by using lower breath pressure.
My half-valved Lee Oskars don't squeal either.
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apskarp
512 posts
Jul 19, 2011
5:31 AM
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HarpMan, I guess your Seydel's aren't embossed? On the other hand they have steel reeds so it might be different anyway..
I guess I'll have to valve some OOTB Hohner and compare it..
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dukeofwail
19 posts
Jul 19, 2011
12:36 PM
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Just completed my first half-valve diatonic. Like it a lot. There are some variations in the bend response.
Is it my valving skill, or are there some known behaviors for these (new) valved bends?
D Lee Oskar harp:
Blow 1,2 bend only slightly with great effort and control
Blow 3,4,5 bend easily to whole step
Draw 7,8 good
Draw 9,10 not at all
Any experience here? Thank you.
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Last Edited by on Jul 19, 2011 12:38 PM
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WinslowYerxa
22 posts
Jul 20, 2011
8:33 AM
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Some models of harmonica are more prone to squealing than others.
That said, squealing is caused by shaping your oral cavity to create a pitch that the reed can't play. So it has to get rid of the energy somehow and it will either stop sounding and let the air pass by, or it will squeal.
Short answer - dial in your bending mouth shape more precisely for that note.
Playing softer has no effect if your mouth isn't shaped correctly.
Embossing probably won't have any effect on squealing.
Raising the gap will widen the bending range of a reed, as PT notes. But if your mouth shape isn't dialed in to the reed's bending range, you'll still get squeals.
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apskarp
513 posts
Jul 20, 2011
12:04 PM
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Thank's for the advice Winslow!
Good to know that PT has also noted that the increasing of the gapping widens the bending range - so it's not just my imagination..
I have noted that the reeds don't squeel so much anymore after two days of playing - the reeds haven't changed much during that time so it must be my embouchure that has changed.
After careful experiments with the bends I noticed that it is precisely the point where the reed won't bend anymore when the squeeling starts - so that supports what you said about reeds getting rid of the energy somehow. I suppose that overblow players start to employ the "OB embouchure" quite naturally when the reeds stops and this forces the reed to start doing something - which is the squeeling as it doesn't have any other choice (I guess the squeeling is actually kind of a chaotic combination of different frequencies that have a bit of harmonical relations to the oral cavity's resonance chamber).
It is a good news is that embossing probably doesn't have any effect to that, as it just makes the harp so much nicer to play.
One interesting note I made today was that the valved bend on hole 2 was easier to do with a kind of a "closing the mouth" embouchure. That way it became easier to sustain and it had more volume. It was kind of a dynamic, moving embouchure - it somehow reminded me of the embouchure used with didgerdoo to enable circular breathing...
So the conclusion is to...practice more! :) And try to raise the gap on 5 hole to see if I could get to the same range of bending as with the 4 draw. (It's a same note in powerbender tuning.)
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