I thought I posted this on my way out of town, but according to my laptop, I didn't (it was still on the post page waiting to be posted.
I tried, in extreme haste, to demonstrate the sonic differences between my small amp (modded VHT Special 6) and large amp (HG50).
I know the fidelity is lost by recording it and then putting it on line, but I think, with decent speakers, some of my point is still there. In the room where I did this relatively controlled experiment (I used a brief loop to ensure the signal going into each amp was identical), I felt the small amp/PA speaker sounded bigger overall. In other words, when sitting right in front of either rig, the PA speaker created more bowel rattling bass then the HG50.
HOWEVER, I only had the HG50's bass on part way. The HG50 could have gotten louder too, BUT so could the PA speaker. The HG50 was set to what I'd have it at for a large gig.
FWIW, the VHT is only as loud as the HG50 on 3 - assuming no feedback killing devices are in use. Unmiked, the bass of the VHT is similar to a setting of 1-2 on the HG50. That being said, the PA speaker naturally added a huge bottom end. There was no eq or mixer used with the powered speaker.
All in all, I am sold that the combo of small amp/powered speaker can generate a near identical tone, volume, and awesomeness as the HG50. I have the luxury of owning all this gear, and being that I sing more than I play harmonica, always use said powered speaker as a monitor. Meaning, it is a piece of cake to mic my small amp and have it through the speaker.
That being said, when analyzing just the cost of creating this sound and volume through two rigs...assuming everything is purchased NEW...
HG50 1210 - $1600 (got mine for $1,100 used)
Modded VHT Special 6 - $350ish (I paid $300)
QSC K10 - $700ish (I paid $500)
While not always the best economic option, I essentially can carry a HG50-ish sound in two hands to gigs. I would mike any amp 99% of the time, so the only difference is actual amp used. If I wanted the VHT and QSC behind me, I could do so and take up nearly an identical footprint.
So far, the only con in using the VHT for my current work is the following: No headroom on stage. Meaning, the VHT can only get so loud in comparison. If I crank the PA speaker, I will eventually get feedback unless I use a mixer or something.
This has been an issue one time in the last 12 months. It was a club where I was getting bass feedback, which was due to the vocal mic I was using picking up the amp sound and having it all go to one monitor. It has nothing to do with the harp rig, but rather my wireless vocal mic being a bit boomy and very sensitive.
Mike, great comparison of the two setups. That VHT + PA/powered monitor bridges the gap nicely between small, medium and large amp needs, I would think. If you like the sound you're getting from a small amp, why go buy a bigger amp just because you need more volume? Just amplify it, like you're doing. Very cool idea, and good results. I listened to this on some pretty decent headphones, and I could pick up the subtleties. I'd say your small amp/p.a. setup can bring it decently. A suggestion/question:Have you tried the VHT into a keyboard amp with larger or multiple-sized speakers? For instance, like a 15"? I'm thinking you'd regain some of the bottom end you lose from not playing thru the HG50. ---------- Todd L. Greene
The offlist comments I've gotten about this video tend to be that the VHT sounds small and the HG50, even with the VHT miked, sounds better for a large amp sound.
I have no evidence that there is a huge difference for me audibly live. Meaning, everything pretty much sounds the same when playing with a rock band, lol. I think FOH, there is probably also very little difference.
There is no contest that one on one, the HG50 sounds way better. In reflecting further on this video, it proves to me that you can get a small amp to sound much larger/loud enough for gig use easily. It doesn't prove that it is the ultimate in tone.
If I had to guess, I'd say the higher I turn up the HG50, the more compression and such that you get at a lower volume from the VHT. Therefore, if you want a real saturated tone, the VHT/PA is a good thing to think about. If you want a sweet spot that is very dynamic with cleaner heardroom/more depth of tone, the HG50 is the way to go.
One con of the small amp is that you tend to be limited in dynamic range with it cranked. If you check out the What I Got solo on my channel, you'll hear the VHT at a very conservative setting - not as cranked as in this video. FWIW ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
From my experience, most everything can sound good when you are playing it by yourself and not competing for the good frequencies with the Bass and guitar. In other words, what sounds great in the house doesn't always get over on the stage. Ultimately what guides your decision on the rig you use is where it will be played. Ever notice how brown face amps don't sound as good in your house or by themselves but put them on a stage in a band setting and the frequencies they push thru the mix are great? Conversely, the great Chicago crunch and warm sound of a small amp sounds small and tinny when put in the mix on a stage. Many a great harp amp demos are in the wrong context and don't really show anything as to how they perform in the mix...great bottom end and full sound when played without a band but then only the crunchy, midrangey, metallic sound gets thru the mix. In a nutshell, very hard to tell what you have until it is used where and how you are going to be using it. Some amps are better for recording and some are better for live performance. I fully believe you need a bigger amp when playing live.
I think the comments from LittleVillage are apt. It is very much about context, which includes not only the environmental factors mentioned but also the taste of the player and what they are looking for.
My monitor system on this computer is a M-Audio 24/96 sound card > Van Alstine pre-amp (boutique hi-fi) > Tannoy Reveal active monitors. Very detailed and reasonably neutral. To my ears the VHT-"PA" set up sounds quite good but the HG50 is in a different league all together by any sonic criteria you care to mention. I have no doubt the HG50 would sound better in any given situation.
It then really becomes a question of balance between weight/ease of use vs quality of sound, all other factors being equal. The HG50 ain't all that heavy.
Also I would assume in the vast majority of cases you'd be playing a club with no dedicated sound man to set things up for you. That means with the VHT-"PA" you have to set up an additional mic and setting up an additional PA channel, possibly including an additional monitor feed, and contend with getting a sound both on stage and FOH. And even if there is a house PA and engineer, you're at the mercy of whoever's on the desk. To me that means the HG50 is an easier and quicker set up and it ain't all that heavy. Consequently, unless the room is small enough that the VHT on it's own is enough, the HG50 wins hands down.
For me, if the room is really small and if the band plays at reasonable volume, I'll just take my Kalamazoo. Anything else I take my Super Cruncher, even if there is a house PA. In that situation the stage will be bigger, the room will be bigger, the band will almost always be at least somewhat louder, and I have the speaker side line out from the SC to cover all bases as needed. It's no brainer. The SC sounds way better, is easier to set up, and I have complete control of what I hear on stage. Seems you have similar options just with different brands of amps. ---------- LSC
VHT miked FOH...not in monitors...Not trying to debate anything, just sharing...
Regarding MY gigging situation...this clip has a sound man and an average Mackie powered system. Not high end, but definitely better than most house systems of similar size. I always mic an amp when I can. Even a large one. So for me, the setup of either amp is equal. The only difference being that the VHT is never too loud and the HG50 can be.
That isn't to say that it can't dial in a great tone at low volumes, as it surely can, but that it could be overkill.
I play a nice sized club this weekend and promise to use the HG50 and tape it. I have a Zoom Q3, which isn't the best thing ever, but good enough for YouTube. I will have to run my own sound and will for 100% mic the HG50 too. I only have one subwoofer, but I am sure the HG50 will move a little air through it. The room is what I would consider medium - over 150 people capacity (although there won't be that many there).
FWIW, in the above clip, for whatever reason, the amp was loud enough for stage volume and I was even told by the sound guy, who was at least good, that anything more would have been too loud FOH. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
I think that there is a difference between getting a great FOH sound and a great sound all on your own from stage. While the HG50 can fill a room, that doesn't mean it should. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
This is a struggle for me too... I play harmonica for Doug Deming and the Jewel Tones and we play a ton of different rooms in the area. To be clear, I own a business, have a family etc and don't get out of the state with Doug and he's got the big boys for those gigs anyway! :O)
Hardly ever do we have all the equipment mic'ed and stage volume is very much controlled. But each club changes things enough to find yourself a bit under powered or really having too much amp and needing to pin it down where your tone suffers. I ahve a couple of large amps and have had tons of amps over the past 20 or so years. At present, for the medium sized gigs, bose PA running vocals only and another stick mic for harp..noone is micing any instruments, i have been using a 1962 Brown Deluxe. I love the amp and it really performs in the mix, just need a bit more oomph sometimes. 4X10's are too much in general and any of the harp specific amps work great by themselves but get eaten up in the mix. I am currently working on tuning a blackface concert and also an LTD to see if i can get them a little better for the next size up so to say and have gotten some great advice from Mr Burness on same. From my experience, with so many variables specific to each situation there isn't one perfect amp for all and you have to find what works best for your specific needs. home and playing amplified, small amps work great. Hitting jams with a good sound man and the opportuinty to set your stuff up correctly, still can get by with a small amp. One man band, two small amps seem to work just fine..on and on! HEre is a link to a clip of the 62 Brown Deluxe with a crystal mic. In this video, it was very ahrd to hear my amp on stage due to position and Doug could barely hear it were he was standing. both of us are on the wrong side of the Big Bass as it is located squarely between us and the amp! In the crowd out in front of us, it seemed to do fine eventhough it could be a touch louder. No matter what, its a give and take and the nights when all is matched well are special!
Thanks to you both Bharper and Joe_L! In re-reading my post, I shouldn't have said "Any" harp specific amp and i could have done a better job of saying what i was trying to say. Basically, the deluxe doesn't sound all that great by itself. Not as good a say a 59 champ or many tweed amps, but put it in the mix of a band and it seems like the sweet stuff gets through. Amps that have a great chicago sound by themselves don't tend to get all of that sound thru the mix on stage with the other instruments, only some frequencies (I don't know if that is how to say it) are there for harp and to my ear, that great chicago tone gets chopped up on stage and sometimes not the best the amp has to offer is left. This amp is just a touch too small by itself sometimes the way we are running sound. Hopefully i can get one of these two bigger amps set up to work in the next-size-up category to have that little extra i need maintaining a good tone without overkill on the volume side. :O)
Personally, I'm not a believer in the "one size fits all" idea or that a small amp is better than a large one. They each have their place.
As a blues player, I have found that only the biggest rooms have sound people. Since, it's a rare event that I am playing in such an environment. I bring the proper tool for the job. Sometimes, it's a little amp. Sometimes, it's a big one.
Swiss Army knives can be handy, but it is a rare event when they are the best tool for the job.
@Little Village - That Deluxe is a good sounding amp. Best of luck with the bigger amps.
