Hey all, As a weekend warrior who plays or practices with a band maybe once a week, I rarely practice with a microphone. When I play alone it is almost always acoustic.
I am curious how much others practice with a mic that do perform electrically? Have started a bit more recently and found that practice with a cupped mic does not matter so much, but there is much more you can do with your sound and an acoustic mic. cheers, walter
well that's a good point, using a mic in a stand does give one more freedom for hand effects and even proximity to the mic can be a real asset. added dynamics. BUT if you're like a certain segment of harp players, you really dig that warm round tone that comes from some sort of hi-z mic plugged into a tube amp. which i discovered a long time ago, that you can-with at least some bullet mics -screw it straight onto a mic stand and have the freedom to use more hand effects. usually this is possible with a bullet with either a volume pot not built into the original hole that the maker drilled and threaded for putting it on a mic stand, or with no volume pot at all.
to me there is nothing wrong- and some quite right- about stepping up to a properly set vocal mic into whatever p.a. is there. when i first started playing out i did this every time since i had no mic or amp. and my first mic and amp were very very dry sounding. much later i actually got my first tube amp and hi-z mic and i've had a love affair ever since. but even now i will never hesitate to use the vocal mic/p.a. when i want a clean clear sound, say when doing something with a chromatic, or just something more along the lines of country blues. ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
If I'm practising harmonica stuff I usually just play acoustically. However I do practise mic techniques too, cupping, whas etc. Then, obviously I practise with a mic and amp.
Very good thread, walter-playing either thru a cupped mic or navigating the nuances and inconsistencies of walking up to a vocal mic and just wailing away are both arts/knacks themselves that MUST be practiced. Unless one just gets really lucky, you're not gonna master cupping a mic and manipulating that cup to color the sound the first time you grab one, nor will you know how to adjust its volume or any amp settings, if applicable. This is all stuff that needs to be woodshedded, tweaked and refined. When you're playing thru a bullet mic, for instance-you might have had that mic for years and played thru it at home thinking it sounded 'ok', then you might experiment with how you're holding it, the seal against your face, etc., and you may suddenly have an 'A HA!' moment where you get that tight cup and hear that sound you've tried to emulate from albums you've listened to. Playing amped up isn't something just to make you louder-it's an integral part of your sound. Practice it. ---------- Todd L. Greene
I used to practice "amplified" playing by cupping up to a mic but without plugging it in to anything. I figured that the instrument, being acoustic, can be heard anyway and there wasn't so much need to practice with an actual amp. However, 7LimitJI built himself a <1W tube amp (later converting another 5W amp to <1W) & was very pleased with it, so I built a couple & am very glad I did...I can now practice amplified at volume levels comparable to TV/HiFi listening levels. Not so much for the volume, but to hear the benefits/effects/nuances of mic technique & having an amp that you can point at your head & ears at reasonable volume.
What got me on this was practice the other day. The mic that greg made me is fantastic with a tight cup, but once you get this and a way to release the cup in a controlled way, there does not seem to be too much farther to go with that.
However, a guitar player we play with does this cool thing with his volume knob while he plays that gives him a delayed attack.. and I figured out it is possible to do through an acoustic mic with a tight cup on the harmonica (not the mic) and opening a small hole to the mic. What comes through the PA sounds totally different than it does from the point of view of the player. I had earlier tried to do this with the stealth volume control on my hi-z mic, but could not pull it off. I suppose a volume pedal might do it with the classic blues hi-z mic...
Started thinking if people had other ideas related to unique mic techniques. Another that comes to mind is the drinking cup wah technique onto an acoustic mic
I practice acoustically most of the time. This is for diatonic and chrom. When I played in a band I used the same set up all the time. Now when I go out to jam it's whatever they got for me. I just bring my akg dm500 and my octave pedal. This way I have some control. ---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
It kinda depends on a player's level of experience and style of play.
Personally, when i perform, i almost always play cupped and almost never "in air." While hand wahs and stuff are nice effects, i think I can get more SUSTAINED variations in tone and timbre by varying the tightness of my cup, using different cupping grips with different levels of tightness, and changing the proximity and orientation of the harp and mic. By "sustained" i mean for long passages or even a whole song. Hand wahs, fans and stuff are more for the moment. And you can do similar things opening and closing or tightening and loosening the cup. But these are purely a stylistic matters and there's no right or wrong.
But, it takes a lot of practice and a certain amount of experience to learn mic handling in order to take full advantage of what one can do with a cupped mic. Then, it takes even more practice to get comfortable enough doing those things so you can do them automatically during a performance without thinking about it. But once you've gotten to the point where you've figured that stuff out and gotten relatively proficient at it, it's sort of like riding a bicycle. You don't have to continue to practice it to be able to do it consistently.
Hand wahs, fans and other "in air" techniques can be practiced fairly effectively without a mic. But for cupped playing, the mic almost becomes part of the instrument itself.
So, IMHO if a player is still learning cupped mic handling, consistent practice with an amp and mic is essential. But after a point, practicing with a mic and amp is no longer as important. For "in air" playing techniques, it would seem to me that practicing with a mic would NOT be as important to developing proficiency with those techniques.
These days, i am more preoccupied with learning particular passages, getting more precise with scales and arpeggios and other stuff like that, so i don't ordinarily use a mic when i practice.
Last Edited by on Jul 14, 2011 6:34 AM
Yeah, muscle memory is in your favor once you've more or less 'mastered' holding a certain type/shape of mic-but, say you're a stick mic guy, and you walk up on a stage at a show or jam and you're handed a JT30 or other bullet...it's a totally different animal with a lot of variables. I'm not saying that anyone aspiring to play live needs to go buy one of every mic out there to practice with, but just to be aware that not all are the same. ---------- Todd L. Greene
I 2nd 5F6H. I have built a few 2 to 3 watt amps and they are alittle to loud. Between 1 and 2 watts I think would be perfect for practicing with a HI Z mic. I still do it, but its loud. I'm just to lazy to build another one! To answer the question though. YES you'll never get good at playing amped unless you do it a lot. I've read a number of times that playing acoustic you can get great effects with your hands, but not amped. Amped is all about cupping. That is so not true! That's from people that play amped that don't use there hands! That Dennis Gruenling video from a couple days ago is a great example of how not true that is! Its different. You get different sounds, but there alot of sounds to be had! Its too bad someone doesn't sell a 1 watt harp practice amp.
Last Edited by on Jul 14, 2011 9:01 AM
I never practiced with a mic until after my first open mic. First off I didn't have a mic and second I never thought of it. When I went to that open mic I looked like a monkey trying to f... lets just say I didn't know what to do. I got a mic for Christmas and now make sure to practice at least once a week with the mic. The rest of my practice/woodshed/therapy sessions are just acoustic though. ---------- Brad
"Yeah, muscle memory is in your favor once you've more or less 'mastered' holding a certain type/shape of mic-but, say you're a stick mic guy, and you walk up on a stage at a show or jam and you're handed a JT30 or other bullet...it's a totally different animal with a lot of variables."
Yep. This is part of what experience is about. Personally, I don't like bullet mics, but I've played through them enough to be able able to handle one competently.
BUT, based on my experiences playing through other players' bullet mic rigs at jams and when sitting in with bands, more often than not the players who use bullets don't tight cup them to overdrive the mic element and don't have their amps set up for the mic to be used that way. So when i try to do it when I play through their rigs, I not uncommonly get howling feedback and i wind up having to use a loose cup all the time and can't apply a full range of mic handling techniques. It seems to me that most of these players are just using the bullet to color (or mask) their tone and are not really using the bullet mic to push the amp by overdriving the mic element.
This is one reason that I frequently express the opinion that many players seem use bullet mics simply because they think that's the kind of mic a harmonica player is supposed to use, without really having an understanding of what to do with one.
Last Edited by on Jul 14, 2011 9:56 AM
I think playing WELL on a stand-mounted acoustic mic is more challenging - as one's distance and angle from the mic is SO critical. Nevertheless, until one has mastered cupping including sealing the front of the harp as well as the back, and understanding how your amp responds to it, I believe practicing with a cupped mic is essential. ---------- /Greg
Greg-so right about playing well on a stand mic acoustically. It's harder than it looks. The pros make it look easy! I almost always practice acoustic at home.I'll learn songs for electric band rehearsal. Even though they're the same notes,they don't sound the same electric. I have to make adjustments to my playing.I use a dynamic mic that can actually get too bassy if you cup it too tight.I must say, I've not really explored what variations in cupping would do for sound. It will be on my "to do" list for next rehearsal.
@5f6h, what schematic did you use (gene i believe he meant a tube amp)?
on acoustic mic, there are some little things, like at about 1:20 on this one where a very little bit of hand positioning makes a clear difference in tone, he just puts his fingers up against the harp... if you try this you don't hear much from the players point of view, but record it and the effect is clear from the point of view of the mic
Last Edited by on Jul 14, 2011 7:54 PM
Walterharp, see www.myspace.com/markburness see "half watt practice/recording amp" under Photos/Amp Stuff. There's a hand drawn schem & photos of the amp, used a 5F1 chassis. It all fits on a 5F1 style board easily enough.
The second one I built was basically a 5D3 schem with 220K plate resistors, 2.2K cathode resistors all round in the preamp (all unbypassed), with a switch to go from "PI driven push-pull" to "self-split". 250ohm shared cathode resistor for the power tubes, unbypassed. It uses either 2x 6SN7 (2-4W under drive) or 2x6SL7 (lower power) power tubes, 2 triodes in parallel a each end of the OT, primary Z of 34K (5E3 style multitap OT with an 8ohm speaker on the 4ohm tap). B+ ~350vdc on the plates...as with the first amp, I'd aim for 250-260VAC at each leg of a centre tapped B+ secondary winding. 10" Eminence Alpha.
An amp like a VHT Special 6 might be converted easily enough with rewiring the power tube socket & replacing the OT with a push pull item for those on a budget?
Last Edited by on Jul 14, 2011 2:09 PM
@chromaticblues My VOX DA5 is a great little practice amp, and has a Power Select switch for 5W, 1.5W, or .5W... and has a variety of different "style" settings and effects... can use batteries or A/C adapter.
http://www.voxamps.com/us/da5/
I love practicing amplified with my mics... when I can...
Last Edited by on Jul 14, 2011 4:02 PM
When I get the chance to practice in the main part of the house, it’s always acoustic. But when I’m downstairs, I enjoy mixing it up. I’ve got an old Boss KM60 mixer plugged into a Realistic 35W mono PA (currently hooked into the ‘gig PA’ pair of 4x8” bass cabs) and I leave that set up with a SM58 (clone) on a stand and a ‘special’, clean LoZ mic through a rat tail IMT through my RP350 pedal (with Hunter patches) into the KM60. I also leave the current favourite of the tube amps (I’ve got a Johnston T25R, a mono 8W all tube from a ’61 national electric piano and an 18W per side, all tube Australian Playmaster Unit 2 stereo) with a CAD50VC mic (JT30 licence built by CAD) plugged in. But I often use a Shure 520DX into a ‘vintage’ Smokey amp (cigarette packet size)that is built into a homemade (styrofoam and plywood) speaker cab with a vintage 6” speaker. That makes the neatest sound – it even makes a 520DX sound good. And it’s probably lucky to be 0.5W.
It's been a long time since I practiced amplified playing. One thing that helped me was to practice holding the mic while playing with the mic not plugged into an amp. Another thing that helped was to practice holding a cup or mug that is roughly the size of a bullet mic (or the size of your preferred mic).
One thing that's important to know, if your hand start cramping, you're not doing it right. You can get good tone without hurting yourself.
Not being a performer (yet) I guess it is ALL practice for now. The vast majority of my practice playing is acoustic. But I would think that amplified playing must be practiced unless you are so familiar with your mic and amp (their limitations and quirks and abilities etc.) that you know how will it sound every time.
when i began playing a lot with my last band i realized it was tiring holding my mic/harp/arms up that long. i began practicing not just with mic, but with weights on my wrists. it helped a lot.
greg: eventually i will. right now i'm using your inline volume control, and it's been great. someday i expect to upgrade. but i'll have 3 kids in college next year, so it may be a while...
another thing that helps is if you have a looper...
you can very quickly record right before it hits the amp, then listen what comes out. it is virtually impossible to hear what comes through the mic while you play.. this holds for acoustic mic played free or a cupped mic. it is just a few buttons, and you can do it again and again till you get it right.. it is also a great way to work on amp settings
