Although I pucker overblow fine, I have never been able to tongue block overblow.
Many people have told me to learn to to tongue block high note blow bends and that will open the door to tongue blocked overblows.
I could always tongue block my high notes but never felt like a pro. Gruenling told me only block one hole to the left. It became much easier, but I still prefer U blocking the high notes and puckering.
Reading someone's posting about tongue blocking, he mentioned he overblows tongue blocked by only blocking one hole to the left, just as I was instructed to do the high notes.
I got inspired and tried. A note popped up! Success?
I was trying for a 6 overblow on a C harp. It really did not sound like it normally did, but I figured I was just getting started. After a few tries, I had to see what note I was producing.
It was a higher C#. As in, what you get on 7 overdraw. Now I know some people can really get their overblows to climb by half steps, but this seems unlikely. Am I overblowing 3 half steps higher than normal, or is it another flukey thing?
Jim, you have expressed many times your dislike for overblows, which is fine, however, just because you prefer alternate tunings doesn't mean that one should just forget overblows.
Sometimes alternate tunings don't have the same expression as certain overblow bends, etc. I use both alternate tunings and overblows, depending on the sound I'm looking for.
The harmonica wasn't initially designed for bends either, but they sure do sound good, as can overblows if done well.
Yeah Todd and if you don't mind me adding I think overblows sound better played alittle sharp. To me its kind of a punctuation to play them alittle sharp. It's just another way of playing the harp. When overblows are played well they do sound good. The problem is you have to be good enough to do it well. Or you have to want to learn it bad enough to spend the time at it. I learned to play overblows and practice them everyday just because its another way of expressing my harp playing. It was the most difficult technique to learn, but is worth learning!
Look, I already know how to overblow fine. I have my opinion about how much I like them, alternate tunings and valving. I just have never done overblows with tongue blocking and now something weird happened and I am trying to figure if it has happened to anyone else.
Michael, are you asking if it's normal to be able to bend the overblow up as far as you did? The 6 overblow can be bent all the way up to a D, the 5 overblow can be bent up to an A, and the 4 overblow can be bent up to a G.
So if you got a C# on the 6 overblow, then it was no fluke.
- the 7 overdraw can be bent up to an E - the 8 overdraw can be bent up to an A - the 9 overdraw can be bent up to a C - and the 10 overdraw... well, it should go all the way up to an E as the 7 does, but I can get an Eb. I'm afraid to push it any further for fear of breaking something, plus it wouldn't be very useable that high.
I have noticed that my motivation to play harp has shifted many times during these years. When I was learning OB's I didn't care about their musical potential - it was more of a challenge to learn for their own shake, you know just to be able to say that I can do those...
Currently I don't care of anything that isn't satisfying in some musical context that I personally need in my playing, so I just practice musical expression (and PowerBender tuning as I have found places where it fits perfectly some of my songs). I do use OB's nowadays also because of their musical expression in my songs, but not many of those (mainly 4&6 OB in richter tuning).
So, I do understand perfectly the obsession to learn TB OB's even if it would be a waste of time in musical sense. But looking at the big picture, it might reveal some novel ways to use harp in musical context (as well as widening the muscle control too), so I don't think it is a good advice to just say it's a waste of time. It might be or might not be, you never know in advance... :)
Chromatic, it's certainly the case that once you've learnt to play OBs with a relaxed embouchure, they all come out flat, so that then you have to learn how to bend them up. ----------
Andrew. ----------------------------------------- Those who are tardy do not get fruit cup.
Jim, I have heard two people, sadly I cannot remember their names who were tongue blocked overblowers and it sounded beautiful, a totally different sound than puckering.
There was a time where I was working a lot on tongue-blocked overblows (also the 1o with the tongue on the right side of my mouth), because Dennis Gruenling was doing it all the time and I transcribed many solos of him (even some with chromatic). I tongue blocked everything, but then I switched back to more puckering. Tongue-blocked overblows are really not as save to play as puckered ones. Especially live on stage you can even hear Dennis overblows sometimes a bit scratchy. There is kind of a risk if you don't have a perfect customized harp. In some situations it's useful.
There has been a discussion in a german harmonica forum where I uploaded these examples: http://www.box.net/shared/xyxopte0bk (D Harp with extreme OB Bends and Vibrato TB) http://www.box.net/shared/5r45ek45bv (Ab harp TB) http://www.box.net/shared/su4si07zy3 (Ab Harp TB) http://www.box.net/shared/79ekceg9mr (puckered) http://www.box.net/shared/e0rvftlolg (TB)
I hope that was helpful! I actually do them 90% puckered.
I tongue block for all of my playing......I'm not sure if my overblows are clunky ....Michael, I'm your pupil James from UK - I haven't been overbending that long but am getting better at it .
If you tongue block exclusively, then you don't have much of a choice but to overblow tongue blocked, unless you switch to pucker for OB's, which would be a pain in the arse.
I don't think it's a case of pucker for OB's and tongue block for old school 2nd position. Anything goes, but learning all techniques is best.
Learning all techniques is best. I just can't imagine tongue blocked overblows being as useful as pursed....or no one has made a video describing how useful tongue blocked overblows are.
When pursing overbends, IMHO, tone, pitch control, deep vibrato, and phrasing become much easier. My guess is that its much easier to use as a passing note as well.
I've been using the 5 ob bent up 1/2 step for the root note in 2nd position for some phrases. 5 ob is much easir to be expressive with than 6 blow. It also allows you to dip 1/2 step under the root and bend up to it with cresendo and increasing vibrato.
Many of us enjoy wailing in 2nd position between the 4 draw and the 4 draw bent. The same notes are there with 7 overdraw and 7 overdraw bent up 1/2 step. Very expressive as well.
I'm still trying to work something up for Adam's soprano challenge. Learning to play first position using 1,4,5,6 overblow blues has really affected my style and taught me a lot about the harmonica and first position blues. Not sure how tongue blocking fits for first position blues using overblows.
I really hope that overblows can be used as effective tongue blocking as they are lip pursing. I have not seen it, but I hope someone will show us.
You can play the missing notes by overblowing, valving, alternate tunings, chromatic, etc..etc.. I bet if you had a player that could play the same piece using all the various options available, the music would be recognizable and similar, yet differnt in many ways.
We all love good ice cream...just not all the same flavor.
Last Edited by on Jul 10, 2011 9:27 AM
Howard showed in some lesson octave spilts with the other hole bend down to get the octave. J-Sin showed that also I think. How cool would it be to use splits with OB's? That's at least something you can't do with LP.. :)
On the other hand I also experimented headshakes with OB's, I guess that would be pretty hard to do TB...
@apskarp I love the double stop... If you are in 2nd position and go to the IV chord it gives you flat 7th and root..of course in 1st position you get root and flat 7.
If you play the double stop in certain minor slow blues it really has a haunting sound....
Another cool sound is the double stop 5 overblow and 6 blow.......if played correctly you can actually bend the 5 overblow up 1/2 step and still hold the double stop......what happens then is way cool...you are actually playing the same note thru both 5 and 6...very cool to bend up slowly at the end of a phrase...talk about resolving tension!
I use to practice the 6OB tongueblocking, but my right jar started bothing me so I stopped doing it and didn't play the Chromatic for about 6 months a couple years ago. I agree with apskarp about learn to do it first and get good at it before dismissing it as a waste of time. It won't be a waste of time anyway because your practicing and prcticing something new. In a couple years you might discover something really cool because your so good at it. You'll never know if you don't try. Myself I'll stick with doing it the lip pucker method. I'm just getting pretty good control of bending them and how to use it. @Andrew yeah that must be what I went thru because I knew I was doing it, but it sounded flat and I really never liked them untill I learned to hit them sharp. I've tried to figure out what notes I'm hitting with my tuner, but thats impossible. My tuner does not like overblows! I tried to compare it to my son's key board, but I can't tell. I guess it doesn't really matter. @Todd how do you know what note your bending up to?
@chromaticblues.....I agree about hangin in there with overblows. I got the overblow the first day I tried, but it was a year later until the 6ob sounded good enough to use at a jam...3 years now and I'm just starting to use all the overbends available as passing notes and power notes.
An overblow is 1/2 step higher than the draw note of the same hole on holes 1,4,5,6. An overdraw is 1/2 step higher than the blow note of the same hole on holes 7,9,10. Overbends are available on holes 2,3,8 but those are notes that are already available.
Any overbend that bends up 1/2 step is duplicating a note that is already available, but they are good for certain effects and phrasing.
I find 1/2 step bends useful, but don't see much point in bending beyond that..even though they will.
Personally, I have enjoyed learning this technique. Persistence, embrochure, learning to gap reeds, and hours of woodsheding are finally paying off.
Pretty amazing how they eventually just become another note you play without thinking about it.
Don't know if they will ever be useful but a 1 hole overblow on my low "F" Suzuki Promaster works pretty well...as does a 10 hole overdraw on my high F# Golden Melody. That one will put the dogs to barking!
What dictates the degree or extent of overbend/overdraw acheiveable on the applicable holes? I know that for straight draw bends it is the half steps available between the blow and draw that leads to a half step, whole step 1&1/2 step bends.
I am pretty new at OB/OD and it takes all my concentration to (as I see it) focus air pressure into one hole, so how the heck do you still overblow and play another note simultaneously?
I am finding the occasional use of overblows (4,5 & 6)very handy for filling in the gaps in a melodic context but it is tricky to make sound them sweet. I'm guessing this is a question of woodshedding because I know the same challenge exists for draw bends.
Do you find it more difficult to make an OB sound sweet than a draw bend?
Also If I have to do more than one OB (following another) in a riff it starts to get more difficult.
@chromaticblues - I play the piano, so I was able to compare against the keyboard, as well as against the harmonica itself. (For example, on a C harp the 6 overblow will bend up to a D, which is the same note as 8 draw.) When I'm playing a song in 2nd position, I rarely bend them up that far, but when you play in certain other positions, bending the notes up farther becomes quite useful, especially in 9th or 5th. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that you always have to bend them to the maximum limit.
If I may address the original question... I'm not a great overblower, but I am a tongue-blocker and I can overblow the 6 pretty well with that embouchure. To me it sounds the same as the puckered 6ob. But I can't bend an overblow yet.
I find it easier to overblow lip-pursed, in general, but I like the fact that I can do it tongue-blocked (blocking 2-3 holes on the left) too so that I don't have to change embouchure. It just takes a little practice and it seems a little more fine breath control to get TB overblows. Again, my two cents, as someone just learning the technique. ----------
Greyowlphotart...I asked the question a while back about what dictates how much an overbend can bend. Now an overblow is 1/2 step higher than the draw note of the hole and overdraw is 1/2 step higher than the blow note of the hole....but...bending the overbend is unique in that it only uses one reed while the other is motionless.....I can only come to the conclusion that the notes available while bending an overbend are infinite...but I cannot explain the physics of what is happening to the reed while bending an overbend? Todd? Anyone?
With the correct set-up and technique overbends can be just as sweet as any note.
Last Edited by on Jul 11, 2011 12:12 PM
I'm not sure if the notes available while bending an overbend are infinite, because at some point the reed is gonna be stretched to the max. I would assume that if you kept putting pressure on the reed, it would eventually break, but I can't be 100% certain. I can't explain the physics of what is happening, other than to say that for an overblow, the draw reed is one being bent, and is being bent further and further as you change the pitch.
Perhaps someone could provide a better, more accurate explanation?
This is what I think happens. When you first hit the overblow the blow reed stops and the draw reed is the reed making the vibrations. Ok so if the draw reed is now making the sound and your blowing. That means it is bent backwards. Not thru the slot, but away from it. When you apply more pressure the reed bends up further. So the actual part of the reed vibrating shortens as you apply pressure and bend the reed up. Must be the lenth from the part of the reed bending to the end of the reed determines the pitch. I'd like to hear what other peolpe think. Thats just what I think happens. I don't know!
I don't know much, but I've just done some experiments.
Don't worry about bending metal, least of all to breaking point. The physics of bending/stretching metals is well understood and it's not relevant here. Last time I stretched wire to breaking point was 1978. so don't expect me to remember the technical terms for you to look them up.
If you take the covers off a harp and do a 2-draw and touch the blow reed, nothing happens. But if you bend the two draw down and touch the blow reed, then the note chokes, so when you bend a draw-note downwards, you get a "two-body system" resonating, not just an individual reed. So from now on, you'll need to understand the resonation of two-body oscillating systems, and I don't know if I ever studied that, and if I did, I've forgotten it. The same goes for OBs - if you play an OB and touch either the draw reed or the blow reed, then the note will choke, so again you have a two-body oscillator, it's not as simple as saying that it's the draw reed that's vibrating in an OB. ----------
Andrew. ----------------------------------------- Those who are tardy do not get fruit cup.
The two terms that you speak of ducktile and malible. One is the measure of how much a metal can stretched the other how much a metal can be manipulated (pounded into shape). I agree niether apply here! OB's are not two reeds interacting. Its just the draw reed making the sound. @Todd I tried doing that last night with the keyboard and I can't tell.
Last Edited by on Jul 12, 2011 10:42 AM
I may be wrong, but from what I can tell visibly with the covers off, when you hit the 6 overblow for example, it bends the 6 draw reed (which is normally an A on a C harp) to a Bb. It looks like the draw reed is bending away from the slot to produce the overblow, but then when I bend the note upward it appears that the draw reed is then bending back into the slot? Hard to tell just by looking in the mirror and without magnification. Someone please feel free to correct me.
I also have a pitch pipe with reeds in it that's all blow. You can also hit overdraws on the pitch pipe and bend them way up. (Of course with overdraws, it's the opposite; the blow reed is producing the overdraw note.)
In either case (overblow or overdraw), I believe the bendability of the note depends on how tightly the reed is gapped. In other words, if you want the 6 overblow to be able to bend way up, the 6 draw reed may need to be gapped a little tighter. And if you want the 7 overdraw to bend way up, the 7 blow reed may need to be gapped tighter. I'm sure embossing helps too. Again, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just a player, not a customizer.
@chromaticblues - You can also verify the 6 overblow note against the 8 draw. It will bend up that far, so you can bend the 6 overblow up there and then play the 8 draw and compare.
"Overblows can be bent up. Some people can play enormous intervals on just one overblow. The tonal quality is difficult to maintain and the further the note is bent up the more difficult it gets. However with practice the tonal quality can be improved and the notes can be of practical use. Especially when played as part of fast embelishments they can be helpfull by eliminating the problem of fast switches in breath direction."
Here are two close-up vids of what is happening to the reeds on various blow,draw,bend OB/OD.
