There's the Natural Minor, the Harmonic Minor, the Melodic Minor and the Dorian (which I've read isn't a true minor for some reason). These minors have important differences, so why does somebody at a jam say "E Minor" instead of "E Natural Minor" (or which ever), and why does nobody ask which minor?
Is the Natural Minor assumed unless otherwise specified...or what?
I ALWAYS ask. When a minor key gets called, i always ask what kind of minor, Dorian or Natural? (Harmonic is rare enough that a musician calling a harmonic minor will almost always call it as such). Depending on the answer, i chose my harp. Melodic Minor is not playable on diatonic without OBs and I don't OB. It is possible to to play Jazz Melodic Minor, though. but I've never had any type of Melodic Minor key called when I've been playing.
Now, depending on the level of musical sophistication of the player who called the key, my question might get a response like "HUH??" If so, I ask if the tune has a major 6th or a minor 6th. If the answer is "I DUNNNO" I'll ask well, is the IV chord major or minor? Most guitar players can answer that. (MAJOR 6TH or MAJOR IV CHORD = Dorian; MINOR 6TH or MINOR IV CHORD = NATURAL). Then I pick my harp accordingly.
Last Edited by on Jul 07, 2011 2:37 PM
No. See what I wrote in the other thread by Honkin about theory/lingo.
People really need lessons for this kind of thing, and it's much, much easier if you learn to play a keyboard. Get a piano teacher to teach you piano and basic theory. It might be a good idea for every beginning harp player to have something like this (or cheaper): http://www.amazon.co.uk/Casio-SA-47H5-Mini-Keys-Keyboard/dp/B003LSOH0M/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1310116512&sr=8-6
and it will provide you with a rhythm machine too. ----------
Andrew. ----------------------------------------- Those who are tardy do not get fruit cup.
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2011 2:28 AM
@Andrew: For sure I'm oversimplifying it, but, on the other hand, I'm not likely to attempt playing "Exodus" on a diatonic harp, nor is a tune like that likely to get called at a jam. I'm providing rough practcal rules of thumb, not formal theory lessons.
Now, Dorian minors (major sixth) are ETREMELY common. For example, "Cold Duck Time" "Riders on the Storm" "Moondance" "So What" and "Chitlins Con Carne" all have major sixths, just to name a few (although CCC modulates to. natural minor and ROTS has parallel Dorian changes that require the use of 2 harps and SW also requires 2 harps).. There's quite a few other.Dorian minor tunes that get called all the time.
Well, I deleted that post because I didn't want to get into an argument, but server replication delays have resulted in your seeing it and replying to it.
Moondance? Are you sure you're not mistaking Van Morrison's sharp singing for a major 6th, lol? ----------
Andrew. ----------------------------------------- Those who are tardy do not get fruit cup.
I'm pretty sure "Moondance" is Dorian. Actually, I used to play it with a flat sixth until another musician corrected me.
Of course,as a practical matter, one can get away with playing minor sixth over major sixth even though it may be incorrect. But if one plays major over minor everyone in the room will know it's a bad note.
Edit: After checking around on line, I'm getting conflicting information about whether "Moondance" is natural minor or Dorian minor. So, I'm not sure.
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2011 7:40 AM
Don't worry about Moondance. "So What" is the important one, since it spawned (or at least represents) modal jazz, which kicked off this modern misnomer, and we're stuck with it like Herpes. They could have said "try playing a major 6 with a minor 7 - it sounds cool", but instead they chose for it a name the ancient Greeks used for a war-dance (and all thanks to some misinformed mediaeval church-organists)!
All along, the appropriateness of the language has been my worry. It seems that going to a blues jam and using the language of modal jazz is inappropriate, rather than a reflection of blues players' poor educations. If it's jazz jams you're going to, then perhaps you need to go to better ones. ----------
Andrew. ----------------------------------------- Those who are tardy do not get fruit cup.
@Andrew: You know, part of the problem is that one CAN usually play major 6 over the I chord of a tune that is in natural minor (which is why I like using fifth position for minors since it provides that option: bend D4 for major 6th or play B4 for minor sixth), but one had better not play major 6 on the IV chord of a natural minor tune or everyone in the room will know it's a really bad note. So, yeah, the whole thing is more complicated than my oversimplified rules of thumb. But, I'm pretty confident that those practical rules of thumb do provide reasonably reliable guidance for selecting which harmonica position to use for which minor tunes.
For "So What", I use a C harp in third position for most of the tune, switch to a Db harp in third position for a few measures and then switch back to C.
I'm not a jazz player, but some of the musicians i gig with regularly also play jazz professionally, so i get invited to sit in with their jazz bands. I have an extremely limited jazz repertoire of mostly hard bop and soul jazz material that I am able to handle on diatonic w/o OBs. But I was using the names of modes (and specifically Dorian minor) for many, many years before I ever sat in with a jazz band. To me, these terms are just sort of a shorthand terminology. I have no formal music training and no music education at all. I just picked up terminology and a basic working knowledge of music theory from the musicians I have been playing with over the years, and this is how most of them talk about music, so this is how I learned to talk about music. It's not like I'm trying to show off--this is just how most of the musicians i play with (and have played with over the years) communicate, so this is how i communicate with them.
I mean, the authenticate blues players I've played with don't talk like this (they would say things like "the blues go up, but the minor goes down"). So, yeah, there's a broad variation among musicians in their level of sophistication about music terminology. You know, all different kinds of people play music which is one of the coolest things about being able to sit in with different musicians in a variety of situations.
Anyway, i think a much more interesting topic is what to do on the V chord of a natural minor tune. I have not been able to develop any practical rule of thumb formulas for that one.
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2011 9:19 AM
@harmonicanick"It shows a level of incompetence to me that beggars belief apart from guitarists playing too loud!!"
True story: I recently sat in at a jam run by a harp player I've known for years who has his own band, gigs regularly, and is a very strong (but not musically sophisticated) player. He had a guitar player sitting in who started to play "little Wing" which is E natural minor.
The harp player/band leader (who plays almost everything in second position, but has excellent bending skills) was really struggling trying different harps, none of which worked for that tune. From the audience, I gave him a hand signal to use a C harp (which gives you E natural minor in fifth position) so he tried it and it worked. ("Little Wing" lays out perfectly in fifth position.)
After the set, he asks me why i just didn't just tell him the tune was in G. I tried to explain to him that the tune was in E minor, not G, but since G is the relative major of E minor, both scales have the same notes. He started arguing with me, insisting that he had been playing in G. After a few minutes i just gave up trying to explain why a C harp worked even though the tune was not in the key of G.
In my experience, so many harp players are not only ignorant about basic music theory, but are actively resistant or even hostile if any opportunity to learn music theory is presented to them. I guess they operate under the philosophy that ignorance is bliss. Go figure...
Yes, Little Wing is difficult. It's made more so by the fact that my copy of Axis is probably a semitone low, so that I'm mostly using Ab and B harps on it. (On If 6 was 9, I also need an Ab). So Little Wing, I'm guessing, was originally in E minor with occasional modulations into G major, like you say, but I'm not sure about it. ----------
Andrew. ----------------------------------------- Those who are tardy do not get fruit cup.
On Axis Bold as Love original of this tune, Hendrix is tuned a half step down, so it would be Eb natural minor on the album. To my untrained sensibilities, it doesn't make sense to say it modulates from E minor to G since both scales have the identical notes in them.
Most of my playing is live, not to records, and I've played this tune quite a bit with a variety of musicians, almost all of whom call E minor. The melody lays out perfectly in Fifth Position. I don't want to sound arrogant, but it's not a particularly difficult tune to play in Fifth Position--different and a little out of the ordinary, yes, but not particularly hard to play, IMHO. I mean, there's no really tough bends, complex phrasing or complicated passages that require refined technique or anything like that. it's just a matter of knowing where to find the melody notes on the harp and not making any random bends. The timing is also important to pay attention to since it's a little out of the ordinary, but not particularly difficult once you cop the groove/mood.
EDIT: It's also a matter of knowing when and where to lay out and let the guitarist play freely and when to come back in playing which part of the tune. i certainly don't try to copy all the guitar parts on harp, but the melody (or selected parts thereof, depending on how much you have to stay out of the guitar player's way) and the turn around around are easily playable and sound good on harp. Harp gives a very haunting feel to this tune if played correctly.
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2011 11:19 AM
When I say difficult, I don't mean technically difficult, I just mean that it can be hard to get one's ear around it. To me the modulation from relative minor to relative major stands out because the feel is different, the tonic note is a minor third higher, and the E is eschewed for a D in the chords. ----------
Andrew. ----------------------------------------- Those who are tardy do not get fruit cup.
DEFINITELY a different than usual feel. Very much out of the ordinary. Absolutely agree with that. But, on the other hand, that's what makes it fun to perform!
The F major chord in Little Wing kind of takes it out of E minor for a minute. Of course that's partly why it lays so nicely in fifth position.
A lot of minor tunes (or maybe it's just the ones I like) seem to float around a bit. On Moondance, for example, I'd play natural sixths in the A and C sections and minor sixths in the B section to not clash with the harmony.
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2011 12:11 PM
Ok here's an example somebody calls Ain't no Sunshine in A minor. This implies the chords used. The improv scales are up to you and your skills. I use a bunch of different scales here that I know will work in minor tunes like this.
---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
All off mic: I figure out the key by using my ear. I play cross harp and play 3 draw. If it sounds terrible, the song is minor. I play the major six. I play the flat six. I choose which one I like. Sometimes I like both. Sometimes it changes throughout the song.
I play the major seven. I play the flat seven. I choose which one I like. Sometimes I like both. Sometimes it changes throughout the song.
I am of the belief that because so many people learn one minor scale and have played it over any chord progression, our ears have become assimilated to all kinds of sounds that may not be theoretically the most appropriate.
In general, I say minor is basically chromatic sans the major third.
The secret is to set the solo up as a vamp and just deal with the tonal center rather than play the form and deal with changes. If your playing on the form and using the changes E minor to D minor to A minor You might want to try E phrygian. But hey on any given day I could hear something else. It's up to you. ---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
Thanks! Great site. I appreciate it. My problem is i don't OB and I'm not any good on chrom. So, i play in different positions on the diatonic, but each of them has its own limitations. I kinda sorta know what I'm doing, but I also recognize the limitations of the instrument I'm playing.
I agree this is a good thread. IMHO the 6th is usually a passing tone. You can play minor or major 6ths over most minors chords, just as long as you resolve it correctly. Using the Dorian mode is over a minor IV is an awesome thought process if you want to sound modal (Kind of Blue has many good examples of this). I usually just follow the chord tones if I am not trying to sound modal.
I dunno. Playing in a Dorian minor key, many players will lean on the major sixth pretty hard. I don't think it's possible to play a major sixth of the key over a minor IV chord and sound musical. The major sixth of the key is the major third of the IV chord, and if that's a minor chord, playing the major sixth of the key over it will sound absolutely terrible.
@hvyi, if you are trying to play in a Dorian mode throughout the chord changes, then yes I agree. What I am suggesting is outlining the chord tones on the IV just like you would on the V.
There isn't really a 'bluesy' mode that you can stick to 100% unless you play minor I dorian IV and then phrygian over the V chord like Digs is suggesting. Is that what you mean?
Well, i was talking about minors in general, not just minor blues. Actually, I think natural minor (Aeolean mode) is fairly bluesy if you play it with a blues feel.
"Ain't No Sunshine" is not a blues. Why I was asking Diggs about what he likes to do on the V chord is because a lot of otherwise natural minor tunes have a MAJOR V chord.
Since we're talking about playing minor scales over chords, the bass player/lead singer in my blues band likes to do "Riders on the Storm" (the Doors tune). It's in E Dorian minor, so I used a D harp in third position. Sounded awful. So, next time I tried a C harp in fifth position which sounded better, but still not right.
So, i struggled using fifth position for a while. Out of frustration, i asked the guitar player/band leader (who happens to have a Masters in Music) why I was having difficulty. He explained that "Riders on the Storm" has parallel Dorian chords and that I have to play E Dorian over the I and V chords but A Dorian over the IV chord, which requires 2 harps (D third position for the I and V change and G third position over the IV change). So that's what i did and it works GREAT.
You know, I would never have figured that out on my own.
Last Edited by on Jul 12, 2011 6:20 AM
Hi Guys, My first post here - been following Adam for only a few months in the woodshed. I have been searching for info about the location of the root note for the various positions on the harp. I did find some info that comes ever so close, but no cigar, on angelfire.com/tx/myquill/positions.html, where there's a cryptograph of the data. I know positions 1 and 2 - straight and cross harp. I (think) I know posn 3 for Dorian minor at 4draw. This guy at myquill says there are 12 positions. I yi yiee!
@lor: If you go to the Suzuki World Class Harmonicas site and enter it, there will be a banner on the top that says "Notation Charts." Click on it and there are diagrams of the notes available on a Richter tuned harmonica in all 12 keys. These charts make it real easy to figure out different scales in different positions.
Here's an explanation that may help you figure out the 6 most commonly used positions:
A Richter tuned diatonic harmonica can be played in different keys or “positions” which are numbered sequentially corresponding to the intervals of the Circle of Fifths.
C Harp can be played in the following keys: 1st Position- Key of C 2nd Position- Key of G 3rd Position- Key of D minor 4th Position- Key of A minor 5th Position- Key of E minor 12th Position- Key of F
Each of the above mentioned “positions” corresponds to a particular mode. Playing in that position does not necessarily mean that one is playing in the corresponding mode, but in that position it will be possible to play the notes of the corresponding mode somewhere on the harmonica without having to bend any notes in order to do so.
First Position: C harp in key of C C Ionian mode (do-re-mi scale) can be played without bending on hole 4 blow through hole 7 blow. Useful for tunes with major sevenths and major thirds. Can get minor sixth by bending draw 6.
Second Position: C harp in key of G G Mixolydian mode can be played without bends on holes blow 6 through blow 9. This is the most commonly used “position” and is sometimes called “cross harp” G blues scale, G minor pentatonic scale and G major pentatonic scales are easily played using bends. This is the position used by most harmonica players most of the time.
Third Position: C harp in key of D Minor D Dorian mode can be played without bends on holes draw 4 through draw 8. Good for Dorian minors. Can also be used for major key blues using bends. Can be played in D major in lower register using bends. . Third position is the most commonly used position for playing in minor keys, but I only use it for Dorian minors.
Fourth Position: C harp in key of A minor A Aeolean mode can be played without bends on holes 6 draw through 10 draw. Used for playing natural minors. Can be used for harmonic minor by bending draw 6 and draw 3 for major 7. Must bend draw 3 a whole step to get root in the lower octave.
Fifth Position: C harp in E minor E Phrygian mode can be played without bends on holes 5 blow through 8 blow. But very useful for playing natural minor if one avoids the flat second (which is draw 5 and draw 9). Can get major second by bending draw 2 and blow 9. Can also use it for Dorian minors by bending D4 to get major sixth.
Twelfth Position: C harp in F F Lydian mode can be played without bends on holes. 5 draw through 9 draw. Useful for playing tunes with a major 7th. Can bend D6 for flat third if desired. Must bend Draw 2 a whole step to get root in the lower register.
Any Richter tuned harp can be played in any of these “positions”. The same breath pattern is used to play in a particular position no matter what key the harmonica is in. So the intervals and degrees of the scale in each respective position are located on the same holes of the harmonica no matter what key of harmonica is being played.
What a superb reply! Thanks so much. Many sources on the internet give spotty info often leaving one stranded at intellectual chasms. May the Gods of music bless and protect you always!
Sometimes the v chord will be a dominant seventh chord like in the tune Black Orpheus. The tune is centered around a minor but that V7 implies the a harmonic minor scale. The E seventh has E G# B D. The G# puts you into the harmonic minor. Now if your creative enough you could still use the natural minor and the G natural becomes a blue third. ---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
@Diggs: I would try to get by in that situation by playing the 4th degree of the scale of the key which is the flat 7th of the V chord. Not saying it's musically correct or optimum, but it kind a sorta sounds ok and i can get that note in fifth position by bending D3 a whole step. Will that approach work?
I am able to play fourth position, but I more often play fifth position for minors. I don't play chrom.
Sure the b3 is a blues third against the v chord. This video gives you the changes. Playing 4th the relative minor of the key of the harp works fine and you can still get the harmonic minor by bending hole draw six.
---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
