groyster1
1122 posts
Jun 18, 2011
9:49 AM
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I just watched with adams youtube playing hard with precision presentation-he seems to think that players would benefit from playing harder like he does-I have a special 20 with the price tag still on it $13.50 and a golden melody with a 16.50 price tag on it-lee oskars harps has always made replacement reeds available but have 2 25-30 years old and have never needed them-I replaced my very first reedplate on a sp20 in Db just last month-I have always believed in taking pride in ownership be it my home,18 year old GMC pickup truck or my 56 harmonicas-I must be doing something right?
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toddlgreene
3044 posts
Jun 18, 2011
9:51 AM
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In the words of Johnny Sansone, "BLOW that MuthaF***in' Harmonica!"
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Todd L. Greene
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groyster1
1123 posts
Jun 18, 2011
9:55 AM
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does not everybody need to create their own style or "find their mojo?"
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toddlgreene
3045 posts
Jun 18, 2011
9:58 AM
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Absolutely. Mimicry is good as a starting point, and some even excel in sounding like someone else, but yes, you will feel elated when you realize that you have your own sound. Don't always play hard, either, but at the same time, don't always play like a buttercup. The harp can display emotion well, but you have to channel the emotion thru the reeds:make 'em, sing sweet as a bird, make 'em shake furiously. You'll break a few in the process. It happens. They're replaceable.
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Todd L. Greene
Last Edited by on Jun 18, 2011 10:02 AM
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groyster1
1124 posts
Jun 18, 2011
10:06 AM
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I read somewhere but forgot where of a quote by little walter"some cats be carrying too much wind blowin` harp but I just carry little wind and navigate up and down those reeds"
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toddlgreene
3046 posts
Jun 18, 2011
10:12 AM
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Moderation is key, of course. If you blow 100 p.s.i into the thing, it's gonna fail in no time flat, and/or your intonation will be a huge mess. But the beauty of playing dynamically is what Adam's getting at, I'm sure.
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Todd L. Greene
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groyster1
1125 posts
Jun 18, 2011
10:29 AM
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you cant argue with success and I am certainly not suggesting that adam has not been very successful but then again I have no doubt that barbq bob is just as successfull as he is very adamant in his posts about breath force
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walterharp
612 posts
Jun 18, 2011
11:01 AM
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i think there is room for both opinions.
one question for adam, how often do you blow out a harp?
my guess is a beginner with this strong of an attack would blow a harp out in no time flat, but that someone like adam has more control when they blow hard and is less likely to be as hard on their harps
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toxic_tone
190 posts
Jun 18, 2011
12:18 PM
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i play hard and soft all the time. when im on stage i play even harder or softer. like yall said it depends on the mood or emotions. my harps last me about 1year before i retune them and about 3 years all together when a reed finally breaks. i use only sp 20s.
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barbequebob
1666 posts
Jun 18, 2011
12:47 PM
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There's hard playing and then there's the really stupid kind of hard playing where you have no real control of anything and the harder players still often don't play as hard as some average players do and learning breath control will allow you to get far more volume with LESS breath and fool people into thinking you're playing a lot harder than you really are. Part of that equation is playing resonantly and the average player, unfortunately, doesn't play very resonantly. I recommend going to a vocal coach to learn breathing and relaxtaion techniques because much of the vocal technique for those is the same as for harp playing and when you go to these lessons, the teacher will ALWAYS check your breathing and relaxation technique and without those two working hand in hand, your sound doesn't project well, everything sounds awful because your playing emphasizes the odd numbered harmonic overtones and the human ear perceves those as thin, tinny, harsh and often times very dissodent and if you play resonantly, that's the exact opposite of that.
Hitting a note here and there a bit harder is no big deal, but EVERY note with little or no regard to any real control or dynamics doesn't make anyone sound good.
Breath control and dynamics go hand in hand together with good tone and tone control and you can't get that stuff with any amount of gear you'll ever buy.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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groyster1
1127 posts
Jun 18, 2011
1:56 PM
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Im sure its clear I dont like to abuse harps but from every single one of these responses it is clear to me that proper technique is what you guys are conveying to me appreciate all of your responses
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hvyj
1440 posts
Jun 18, 2011
6:31 PM
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It's not so much how HARD you blow as it is HOW you generate the air flow. If you are creating ALL air pressure from the diaphragm with the an open airway and large, relaxed oral resonance chamber, you can play pretty damn hard and not blow out harps.
Like BBQ Bob says, tone comes from RESONANCE, not breath force. But, on the other hand, if you've got good technique, you won't damage your harps by playing relatively hard when the music calls for it.
Some brands of harps are more durable than others, though.
Last Edited by on Jun 18, 2011 6:36 PM
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gene
769 posts
Jun 18, 2011
9:01 PM
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I want to play hard sometimes, but I don't. I just don't want to spend any more money than I have to. If I had more money to spare, I'd play harder.
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groyster1
1130 posts
Jun 19, 2011
6:25 AM
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the message was that people who dont believe in playing hard are crazy ok Im crazy but its my money that I spend on harps and the price is going up
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Miles Dewar
961 posts
Jun 19, 2011
7:35 AM
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Playing hard rocks.
I love the raunchy "I'm going to kill this harp" doublestops that Cotton does.
If your harp breaks, just take one of your 56 harmonicas and fix it.
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---Go Chicago Bears!!!---
Last Edited by on Jun 19, 2011 7:38 AM
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nicewrk
22 posts
Jun 19, 2011
8:08 AM
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Sooo... Do you thimk giant tone like Lttle walter, Cotton ect. Came from playing hard? Or controlled or did the just play what they felt because harps were a buck and a 1/4?
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groyster1
1132 posts
Jun 19, 2011
8:18 AM
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so I should rob peter to pay paul?
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Miles Dewar
962 posts
Jun 19, 2011
8:23 AM
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No.
I KNOW that the raunch doublestops I talked about WERE from playing hard. I don't care where he got his tone.
Raunching out those doublestops is NOT a result of his tone. It is a result of him playing hard.
They may sound good because of his tone. But you most definately could not get that sound from playing softly.
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---Go Chicago Bears!!!---
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Miles Dewar
963 posts
Jun 19, 2011
8:27 AM
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Nobody said just play hard ALL the time.
Why shouldn't it be there? For risk of breaking a $30 object?
...... I didn't know harps cost $1.25 in the 60's. Wait.... Cotton is still playing. So they cost that in the 70's, 80's, and 90's?
Last Edited by on Jun 19, 2011 8:30 AM
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groyster1
1133 posts
Jun 19, 2011
8:30 AM
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I know how some of you feel about hohner but quoting them"although it is natural to think so,playing a harp is not the same as blowing a whistle or sucking on a straw-proper technique is using your mouth,sinus cavity and throat as a reasonance chamber to get a nice sweet sound"
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Miles Dewar
964 posts
Jun 19, 2011
8:40 AM
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Hohner can suck it with their "Suggestions".
You think people Really listen to that? Yeah, I'm going to mold my play on what a harmonica Manufacturer says. Not harmonica teachers. Or just what ever I want to do to make it work. If people dig it all the time, what the he'll is the problem? I'm not searching for a band. I'm not searching for studio time. I'm not looking to "get famous" like so many want.
I just want to jam and play on the street. I know I don't need the "Sweet" tone all the time to do this. In the street setting I can do almost whatever I want.
Nobody comes up to me and says, "man, you have to work on your tone". Or, "Dont play so hard".
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---Go Chicago Bears!!!---
Last Edited by on Jun 19, 2011 8:41 AM
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Diggsblues
824 posts
Jun 19, 2011
8:53 AM
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Think of hard precision playing like a marshal artist.
Its a focused controlled energy. This comes from
playing exercises that can give your control over that
hard playing energy. Or you blow out enough harps
and learn that way over the years.LOL
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Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind
How you doin'
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Littoral
300 posts
Jun 19, 2011
8:58 AM
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Adams video emphasized the value of playing hard. He was referring to putting some f-ing guts into your playing. If you don't have technique and control you can't very well direct the force of playing hard. Cotton is a good example on something like I Want To Be Loved -or anything on Hard Again. Big Walter could choose which teeth to knock out when he punched his harp in the mouth.
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Miles Dewar
965 posts
Jun 19, 2011
9:00 AM
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No doubt about that. You will blow out a nice amount of harps in the process.
Again, nobody is saying play hard all the time. But the time comes.......
Last Edited by on Jun 19, 2011 9:02 AM
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barbequebob
1671 posts
Jun 19, 2011
11:45 AM
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@groyster1 --- Proper playing technique is what it comes down to the average player often plays much harder than Cotton actually does and Cotton, compared to some pros is considered a really hard player. Using force indiscriminately like the way the average player tends to do is bad technique in no uncertain terms. With better technique you can something sound like you are hitting it harder than what people believe and having it all under control with good breath control, relaxation, and playing resonantly helps not only give good tone, but also DYNAMICS as well as the ability to take total control of your tone and get a wide variety of tonal colors and that's where taking lessons on breathing and relaxation from a reputable vocal coach comes in and it does wonders.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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harmonicanick
1223 posts
Jun 19, 2011
12:13 PM
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Practice all the things everyone says a lot!
I still do over an hour a day of woodshedding, and it pays off when you get good audience reaction..
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Greyowlphotoart
586 posts
Jun 19, 2011
12:56 PM
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@Groyster I only ever recall blowing one reed out and that was on an old harp that I started playing again after a long layoff. I don't think I'm a soft player so maybe I'm lucky.
Bit like with tyres, didn't have a puncture in 20 years driving, mind you I've made up for that since, the bloody floodgates opened after that first one. Hoping the same thing doesn't happen with my harps!
Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos
Last Edited by on Jun 19, 2011 12:56 PM
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AV8R
152 posts
Jun 19, 2011
2:35 PM
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I like playing with some force, it de-stresses me. Kind of like the feeling I get after a good run or a workout. If I go through harps a little bit faster than some, so be it.
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groyster1
1136 posts
Jun 20, 2011
7:37 AM
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thanks everyone for your comments this is a great forum
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12gagedan
73 posts
Jun 20, 2011
7:49 AM
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I play too hard when I can't hear myself onstage. My brain thinks I can make up for the volume with my mouth. It's silly, but when I turn up the amp, the other guys just turn theirs up more, so there you go.
Bob is right. Cotton sounds hard, but he's not playing as hard as you may think. Many folks don't understand the difference between blowing their brains out and the use of techniques for impact. All of the body movement? It's show. A lot of the "heavy" sounds? Good use of bends and the ability to consciously diverge from single note playing. Don't minimize the impact of timing and note placement, either.
Another element might be the difference between how much one is breathing vs. the amount of air going through the instrument. Sometimes releasing air around the sides a little, adds to the hard play perception, when the pro is actually very much in control. Clarke did this as an effect. It sounded like this huge pressure release or I can't even explain it.
But, again, I do play too hard. It's most noticeable with this gutteral noise that I make subconsciously more than I'd like. But that's for me to worry about and work on.
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"12gagedan" on youtube
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Greyowlphotoart
588 posts
Jun 20, 2011
8:15 AM
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@12gagedan . Don't know if you want to do this Dan but if you type the following in at the end of your posts
you will get an active link which will take those who click on it straight through to your Youtube channel.
You can also add this to your signature in your account to save copying and pasting this every time you post
Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos
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walterharp
614 posts
Jun 20, 2011
8:38 AM
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I have found the best thing if you cannot hear yourself on stage is a good quality pair of earplugs. The harmonica conducts through your jaw. Sometimes you see guys on stage plugging one ear while playing a harp to be sure they have the right key.. same effect
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hvyj
1443 posts
Jun 20, 2011
8:39 AM
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i don't play as hard as some do, and i don't play as hard as I used to, but I use a pretty strong attack. Personally, i don't think i get the reed response and tone I'm after if i play soft routinely. i gig regularly and sit in regularly when i'm not gigging which means i play out at least 3 nights most weeks when i have time. I haven't blown out a harp in 5 years.
Incidentally, once upon a time when I first started to play out and my breath technique was undeveloped, i would often blow out a harp in a single weekend if it was a key i used a lot. IMHO, unless one is playing extremely hard constantly, breath technique has more to do with harp longevity than how hard one plays.
Last Edited by on Jun 20, 2011 8:43 AM
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12gagedan
74 posts
Jun 20, 2011
9:23 AM
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Thanks for the tip. I will update my tagline. (after this post) I have reeds go flat, but nothing has actually broken in a very long time. You guys don't want to know how many repairable harmonicas I probably own.
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"12gagedan" on youtube
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Sam Pai Kenpo
71 posts
Jun 20, 2011
1:49 PM
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walterharp is correct. I always wear earplugs to protect my ears and found it helps me hear myself sing and play harmonica.
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12gagedan
81 posts
Jun 20, 2011
2:21 PM
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I wear custom musician's plugs anytime I perform or watch live music. They are designed with channels to more accurately mimic your actual ear canal, but with attenuating drums that more evenly lower the volume. Full plugs pretty much mute the entire amplified harmonica sound. If I wanted to just listen in my head, I wouldn't go out and gig. Plus you need to hear the other guys in the band, and the random drunk who tries to speak with you.
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12gagedan's YouTube Channel
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chromaticblues
895 posts
Jun 21, 2011
10:13 AM
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I don't know about playing hard. I don't think that is the right way to look at it. I think of it this way. How loud can you play under control without damageing harps. When playing amped you have to know how to play well soft, but playing without a mic is different! I think playing amped is easy! Being able to play impresively without a mic and amp is much more difficult. Also I believe to many people think the mic and amp are going to work magic (I know I fell into this catagory for years). I am one of the people that do not agree with Bqbob about playing with light breath. I think you should play the damn thing like you mean it! Way to many people play so under control its boring. Everyone wonders why blues acts can't get gigs! I know why. Because so much of it is so boring people get turned off by it. You don't have to play a million notes a second, but if you can then do it. Play the damn thing! Don't worry about how Little Walter or George Smith did it. They did there thing.
Miles and Diggs made some good points.
I kind of like Miles post. I feel the same way. I listen to great harp players and I read about diferent stuff, but when I put the harp to my mouth all that goes out the window and I just play it the way that makes me happy!
Everyone has to realize we are all different and some of us will never be able to do things that other people do. Don't get bogged down with that. Thats just the way it is. It doesn't mean you can't be a good harp player. What ever you can do. Do it great! and continue to learn.
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