apskarp
469 posts
Jun 02, 2011
5:42 AM
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I've been playing a lot of top octave recently and one thing that has been bothering me is the lack of bending abilities on 8 draw (richter tuning).
So I finally went to my toolbox and half-valved (halved) the top octave (7-10). I figured I use those overdraws so rarely that it's musically more important to be able to color the draw notes than be able OD 7&9 once a year (actually I can reach those notes with draw bends now).
I immediately noticed that the valving also made the notes a bit louder with more attack which I like with the top octave that often sounds a bit thin.. Another thing I noticed was that the valving and the new abilities to bend the draw notes affected my playing musically also. The top octave is more fluid and expressive now - at least in 2nd & 3rd position.
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oldwailer
1626 posts
Jun 02, 2011
7:15 AM
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@apskarp--I've been meaning to half-valve a harp--I even bought some valves from Rupert a couple of months ago. I do have one question though--if you could answer it for me--do you still get the blowbends on the top octave? TIA. . .
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jim
843 posts
Jun 02, 2011
7:43 AM
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@oldwailer: of course, bends stay the same. You just swar overbends for valve bends.
... which also make way more sense on a richter than ODs. The draw bends at the top are identical in layout to the 1st octave.
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chromaticblues
875 posts
Jun 02, 2011
9:07 AM
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Oldwailer The blow notes play just like they did before. You can't tell there is anything different with the harp. It only affects the draw notes.
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HarpNinja
1453 posts
Jun 02, 2011
9:18 AM
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Will the Gazell valves work on a Hohner harp? I think I want to try this.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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jim
844 posts
Jun 02, 2011
10:08 AM
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@HarpNinja LOL why not? Due to religious differences? :-D
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jim
845 posts
Jun 02, 2011
10:09 AM
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If you valve a hohner - you will have to modify the comb. The hole chambers are not long enough to house the valves - you will have to file them deeper.
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HarpNinja
1457 posts
Jun 02, 2011
10:15 AM
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Due to my cheapness, lol. Thanks for the info. I still plan on trying one soon...prob just order one already done....but brass...because I can be cheap.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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mr_so&so
442 posts
Jun 02, 2011
10:42 AM
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If you like the half-valving on the upper part of the harp, why not do 1-6 draw reeds as well? To me that is where the half-valving really shines. You can get the equivalent of the overblows:
1ob => 2b', 4ob => 5b', 5ob => 6b', 6ob => 7d'.
Regular bends are not affected. It makes more sense to me that the valved bends lower the pitch, rather than raise it like the overblows do. I'm new to this myself, but liking it.
The PT valves work fine on the plastic-combed Hohners, at least for BRs. You should leave a bit of the reed slot uncovered (1-2 mm) anyway. See PT's instructions on his web site. Rather than modify the comb, you could just shorten the valve too, if necessary.
A harp set up for overbends, with very small gaps will have to be regapped by opening up the gaps on the unvalved reeds. I'm not practiced at gapping harps yet, so I'm finding it a bit challenging to get them exactly right.
For anyone curious about trying half-valving with minimal risk to messing up your harp, start by valving just the 5 draw and the 7 blow slots.
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Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2011 10:54 AM
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HarpMan Freeman
149 posts
Jun 02, 2011
8:02 PM
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I just .5V a Golden Melody (Key of A).
It sounds great.
Last Edited by on Jun 03, 2011 1:31 PM
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apskarp
470 posts
Jun 02, 2011
10:50 PM
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mr_so&so:
I have tried full half-valving before and also partial valving with the 1-3 holes. The reason I decided to halve only the top octave is purely musical - I do use 4-6 overblows, especially the 6OB a lot, so I don't want to sacrifice those for valve bends. However, as I said, I use overdraws really rarely. Sometimes I use 7OD but I have really never used 9OD in any real musical context. I figured it's easier to learn to hit the 8 drawbend for that same note as in 7OD because then you can actually use the note with bending (the same way as in 4 draw which is musically really bluesy).
Actually I might remove the valve from 7 hole if it seems that I'll miss the 7OD as there's not much to do with the bending abilities of 7 draw with 2nd or 3rd position playing. But that really depends only from the musical needs I might have. In some sense it is more logical to have all the holes 7-10 halved as those are the inverted ones in richter tuning.
Harpninja:
I used customized SP20 in the key of A and some valves I bought from harponline. They were'nt regular Hohner valves but instead some kind of micropore material or something - they were a bit more expensive and should be better. Perhaps Jim knows more about those. With SP20 the valving is possible without any filing - and actually that's true with all the harps if you halve only the top octave, as the valves are on top of the reedplate...
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apskarp
471 posts
Jun 02, 2011
11:01 PM
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One more thing for the mr_so&so's question. The valved bends are really unstable. I'm sure that it is possible to master those with practice, but if one can do OB's they are a lot easier to sustain, bend and vibrate. This is the reason I don't want to sacrifice the OB's. I actually tried with halving the holes 2&3 at some point - as I figured the 1OB was pretty hard to get. The problem was that valved bend wasn't really much easier to get and it also made the 2 & 3 blow notes to "stick out" as they were so much louder than the rest. So I eventually removed the valves. (Perhaps that "sticking out" could have been improved with better gapping..)
Actually it is really easy to try out these things with half-valving, if you don't like it, just remove the valve - especially with the top octave when you don't even have to remove the reedplates.. :)
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Greyowlphotoart
553 posts
Jun 03, 2011
12:34 AM
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@ Askharp 'The valved bends are really unstable. I'm sure that it is possible to master those with practice, but if one can do OB's they are a lot easier to sustain, bend and vibrate'
I agree, I bought a Suzuki Promaster 350V as I was having trouble with OB's and I thought this would be a viable alternative. It didn't turn out as I expected as I was really disappointed with the draw bends 6 to 10 as I had to play these holes so softly to acheive these bends and then they weren't really resonant or stable or in keeping with the sound of normal draw & bend notes. BTW I have played chromatics before so was aware of the technique involved to bend these valved notes.
I shortly afterwards bought a 350V in A to see if there was any difference but there wasn't and there was a reed fault on this harp also, so I got my money back.
I ended up removing the 6 to 10 valves after subsequently acheiving the oveblows and agree with you that they are sound better than the valved equivalents in that they match the timbre of normal draw hole notes much better.
I have kept the valves on holes 1 and 2 for blow bending which don't sound too bad and are useful as the 2 blow bend gives me the 1 overblow on an unvalved harp(which I find difficult) and the 1 blow bend gives me a lower register note than I could get otherwise.
BTW I am pretty happy with the 350V,or 350V/2 after my modifications:. It has a lovely bright tone, no doubt due to the metal comb. On this point though it is difficult to play TB as I find the alarming effect on my tongue similar to the sensation you get when you lay you tongue across the terminals of a 9v battery, aaaaagh!!
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Kyzer Sosa
980 posts
Jun 03, 2011
12:48 AM
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unstable valved bends? how so? They are just as stable as unvalved bends on a reg diatonic. practice, practice, practice....
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apskarp
472 posts
Jun 03, 2011
3:00 AM
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@Kyzer: :D
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chromaticblues
876 posts
Jun 03, 2011
5:31 AM
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Anyone that is trying this and doesn't like it. Try doing the same thing Apskarp did. Half valving 7 thru 10 is the only part of the harp where there are no drawbacks. Not only do you get the draw bends, but the tone of the unbent note is much fuller and more musical sounding. I'm not saying I'm going to do it. This is an unbiased opinion. I have built a few and have to try them out to fine tune them for playability. The highend improves drastically. I don't like it al all on the lower reeds. I can hear the windsavers and feel the slugishness of first octave blow notes. The middle octave works fine. That is where you have to decide if OB's or blow bends is what you want to purse or not.
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HarpNinja
1458 posts
Jun 03, 2011
5:42 AM
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I am not super familiar with valving. Is there a way of checking out the note layout with the available bends?
I think I have a hook up to try one and will definitely at least learn the theory behind it, even if I don't play it much.
I don't mind overdrawing and play that top octave a ton. That being said, that is always the octave I am most interested in experimenting with.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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chromaticblues
877 posts
Jun 03, 2011
6:46 AM
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@Mike The draw 7 bend is the same note as the 6 OB.
The draw 8 bend is the same as the 4 draw bend.
The 9 draw bend is similiar to the regular 5 draw bend where you bending down to an existing semitone (not overly useful).
So its the 7 and 8 draw bends that are of use. Which does make it better than OD. Because there its the 7 and 9 that you obtain the "missing notes". The half valved 8 draw bend is easier than the 9 OD. Not that you get the same notes doing that, but the usefull draw bends are 7 and 8. The longer reeds are easier (8 compared to 9). Also the Blue third that Adam talks about is very easily obtainable on the half valved 7 draw.
As I said before the top octave is perfect for this. Boy the more type the more I'M THINKING WHY DON'T I DO THIS?
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HarpNinja
1460 posts
Jun 03, 2011
6:57 AM
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So the 9 and 10 aren't very useful? Why not just valve 7 and 8 then? I could see the 5 and 6 valved as being fun...
This makes sense to me and is what I assumed, but a comment was made somewhere about valving making all the bends the same on the upper octave and the 9 and 10 threw me. Has anyone though of retuning and valving those reeds so it was more like the bottom or middle octave?
I guess you'd really just want 10 draw to be the same as 4 draw...
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
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chromaticblues
878 posts
Jun 03, 2011
8:20 AM
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I would still half valve all the holes on the highend, But what I mean by not usefull is; in 2nd position the 7 draw bend is going from major third to minor third (with the blue third in between) and the draw 8 bend is going from the mjor 5th to the minor fifth (ala 4 hole draw bens). The 9 hole draw bend is like the 5 hole draw bend. Your just bending in between a semitone. Your not bending from one note to another. You can bend it a little just to get the bluesy effect, but I said its not useful because they start to get real squeellyy abouve the 8 hole.
The ten hole ain't gonna be like the 4 hole unles its a low C.
As far as the middle octave goes. You should try it and see what you think! I didn't like it, but I playing for 22 years before I tried it. That may have something to do with it. I don't know? Its worth messing with. That I do know. My half valved chromatic plays draw bends just like a diatnic. I can play riffs using the botton. then play the same thing again useing bends!
Mike once you mess around with it you'll quickly pick up on certain ways of customizing that make it more useable. Then its fun!
I'll never play a chromatic any other way again!
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mr_so&so
443 posts
Jun 03, 2011
9:14 AM
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One thing that has perhaps not been stressed enough in this discussion is that the PT valve material is (from what I hear, 'cause that is all I've tried) much better than the plastic valves. The PT (Ultrasuede, I believe) valves are silent and not affected by moisture. Before you give up on valving, try them out too.
As for "stability" and loudness of the valved bends, I find the blow bends to be stable and full sounding. It's the draw bends on 7-10 that I have not mastered yet. The techniques is definitely a bit different for those and getting the gapping right is trickier too. But, like I said, I'm still new to this game and working it out.
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chromaticblues
879 posts
Jun 03, 2011
9:45 AM
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@ Mr so&so I found 7 pretty easy and 8 doable, but like you said it would take time and dedication to master. I think it is possible though. I can and I have only built a few of these and teasted each for 15 to 30 apiece and got the 8 draw bend on all but one. On was LO and the 8 wasn't giving it up. I think long slot harps would work better on the 7 thru 10 draw bends and short sloters would be more suited for the 1 thru 6 blow bends.
How sells those valves in the US? Anybody know?
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mr_so&so
445 posts
Jun 03, 2011
10:09 AM
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Seydel sells the PT valves. I got mine through PT's site. Rupert Oysler will ship them to you in the USA and Canada.
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Last Edited by on Jun 03, 2011 10:11 AM
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apskarp
473 posts
Jun 03, 2011
11:43 AM
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Harpninja:
You can find a layout of valved harp at the bottom of this page: http://www.angelfire.com/music/HarpOn/chrom.html
The idea of the valving is pretty simple - it let's the air flow to other direction but prevents it at the other direction. This is why half-valving works so well on a diatonic. If you put the valves right, it doesn't mess with the regular bends but enables you to achieve bends on the other direction (blow bends on 1-6 & draw bends on 7-10). In theory it is possible to get about one full semitone bend with valves, but of course it is harder in practice.
It is possible to valve just some specific holes - my first trial was to do the holes I that aren't useful with OB's - namely the 2,3 & 8. I tried that for a while but I found it too odd to have just those holes valved as they responded differently compared to the rest of the holes (tonally and how they felt). So I removed the valves. This time the idea was purely musical and perhaps because of that it seems to work really well. Another thing is that now the whole top octave responds about the same way and thus it doesn't feel funny to play that way - the fact is that in richter the top octave (7-10) is little different anyway because of the inverted holes.
What the valves add compared to the OB's is that you can bend to those. Like the draw 8 - you can use it the same way as the draw 4 bending from the D to Db (and back if you want). With 7OD you can't do it the same way. It is also really easy to add color to the notes on draw 8 & 9 and musically those valves are really useful, although you might not want to use the 9 draw bend note as such because it's more steadily available from the 8 blow (but of course for some musical reason you could use it if you wanted). So the real value of the 9 draw band isn't achieving the note note but being able TO BEND TO IT... :)
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apskarp
476 posts
Jun 04, 2011
6:07 AM
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I experimented a bit with the draw bends on holes 7-10. I don't find it harder to do bend the higher reeds - actually the 9 hole seems even a bit easier for me than the 8. Another thing that I noticed is that the bends are becoming easier and easier to control - I assume that in few weeks they are almost as easy as the regular bends to sustain... :)
(I guess it would make it even easier if I'd know how valved reeds are suppose to be gapped...)
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apskarp
477 posts
Jun 04, 2011
9:23 AM
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Some more observations now that I'm in the groove.. :)
Halving the top octave is really beneficial for 3rd position playing. This way I can play the 8,9&10 the same way I play 4,5&6. I can bend the 10 draw to get it sound just like the 6 draw with the beautiful colors of the micro-tonalities and even the whole semitone pretty easily and naturally. Also the 9 draw is really useful and with that you can add even more depth to the bending than with 5 draw - which actually enables you to play the highest octave even more "bluesier" than the middle one.
Actually the whole harp seems to be full of colorful bends and micro-tonalities from the lowest octave to the highest. I mean especially in the lowest octave you have the 3draw and 2draw that are really personally sounding in the 3rd position and now the highest octave seems to play in the same world.
In fact, with this set-up the richter tuning kind of seems to be made for 3rd position playing. (I'm tempted to halve the lower octaves too just to get few more blow bends for the 3rd position playing as the OB's aren't needed here.) :) It's really grooovy..
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oldwailer
1630 posts
Jun 04, 2011
1:36 PM
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I'm going to try this this week-end--does anybody know of any books, DVD's or whatever kind of instructional materials on how to get the most out of half-valving harps? I can probably figger out something--but a book from PT or Brendan would sure be cool!
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Gnarly
41 posts
Jun 05, 2011
12:07 AM
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I retuned a Seydel Session Steel to Melody Maker, and that makes it great for second position major. The draw bends on 3, 4 and 5 are the b3, b5,and b7--but you are still missing the b9 and b6, those have to be played as overbends.
So I put valves on the 3 and 5 draw slots, and can blow bend them down to the b9 and b6.
This works great when you are descending . . . when ascending, the OBs are easier . . .
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