I've got a question. I'm learning a solo to the Randy Crawford song Streetlife. It's in Fm and I've opted to use an Eb harp in 3rd position.
The problem I have is my very amazing Joe Spiers MB is perfect, all apart from being in the wrong octave. I've got a low Eb Seydel Silver, but it's really really hard work to play with any speed or precision.
I'm looking at getting an octave pedal to overcome this, but from what I've been reading here, the Boss type units don't track very well. It seems a lot of people are using the Hog / Pog pedals by Electro Harmonix.
My question is, will I get a quality sound out of the Pog using it purely to drop down an octave, or is it more to add a lower octave to your existing tone / pitch?
If anyone has any other suggestions for a good octave pedal, I'd love to hear.
The POG (and presumably the HOG, although never used one) allow you to set output levels for different octaves. So you can set your raw signal level at 100% and just add a little of the various effect signas, or you can kill the raw output completely and add just the effected signal for 100% octave - or pretty much anything inbetwen.
You could also try using a Bb harp and just play minor in 2nd position. For some reason it seems like a lot of harp players automatically think they need to play in 3rd whenever they find out a song is in a minor key. Of course 3rd position is great and it would be my preferred position too, but you don't automatically have to use it (and conversely, it also seems like a lot of people only think to use 3rd on minor songs, but 3rd works great for regular/major blues too, and if your good, you can use 3rd even in songs that use the major scale, it can be great for swing tunes).
One reason I may decide not to use 3rd for a minor tune (even though I love it) is for situations like Steve's, where if I use 3rd I end up being in too high of an octave and I want something lower. In this situation 2nd position might be a great choice. Or if I'm playing a lot of minor songs in 3rd position, switching to 2nd position to play in a minor key will give me a different sound. It's always good to have a variety of different sounds, and experimenting with different positions is one way to do that.
Jason Ricci is someone who will actually use 2nd position quite often to play minor, which is cool since a lot of other players rarely (or never) do this. Also Todd Parrott has a youtube video where he does some fantastic minor key playing in second postion. I actually spent some time learning some of the stuff Todd was playing on that video because I was really impressed with(and inspired by) the unique sound he had playing 2nd position minor. He really sounded great and it made me think about starting to use 2nd for minor stuff even more, because he was able to get such a cool/unique sound.
Anyways, back to the point. Steve, if you do decide to try playig it in 2nd, just make sure you always remember to keep the 3 draw bent down a half step. You'll also want to avoid 2 blow and 5 blow. If you overblow that's even better. You'll want to use the 6OB, that's your minor third. And the 4OB will also be quite useful, it's your minor sixth, and it's the same note as playing the 6OB in 3rd position (maybe that'll help you figure out how to use it). I apologise if already know all this Steve, but I figured it might help somebody.
I actually feel a little strange about suggesting people should think about using 2nd position for minor songs sometimes instead of 3rd, because overall I think 2nd position is way over used. But I feel that a lot of harp players would be better off if they explored different posistions more and did some exprimenting with different positions. A lot of players essentially just always rely on 2nd, unless of course it a minor song, then they always automatically go to (and rely on) third. So if you fall into that category, an easy way to start experimenting would be to just try to take some of the minor stuff you would normally play in 3rd, and start trying to play it in second. Of course this doesn't mean you should then just start playing everything in 2nd, that would be taking a step backwards imho. It's great that you incorporate 3rd position in your playing. All I'm suggesting that you use the positions differently than you're use to. Another thing you should try is taking some blues songs that you ALWAYS play in 2nd, and try playing them in 3rd. Just start by using your 3rd position blues scale and go from there. Try taking some of your 2nd position licks and transposing them into 3rd position, and vice versa. This is something I do a lot. Whenever I find something I like the sound of, I try to transpose it to other positions to see how it sounds. I love the sound and feel of 12th position, and I often wish I could sound more like that in 2nd(I often get tired of 2nd, and will sometimes feel like my 2nd position playing is predictable and stuck in a rut), so I start by transposing licks from 12th to 2nd. Even if they don't sound quite the same in 2nd, it helps me get out of the 2nd position patterns and ruts I fall into.
Here's Todd's video that I was talking about(he starts playing the song at about 6:42):
You deffinitelly should try using second position. It might be hard to always play the minor third at first but once you get used you will automatically will go for the bend in the third hole without thinking.
I wanted to add one more thing.
The first octave of third position (-1 to -4) is really usefull but not many player use it (actually it's in the same octave than the "middle" octave of 2 position -2 To +6.) So you dont' really need to play the song in a high register if you don't want to. You will of couse need to keep your bends in perfect tune, but believe it will reward your playing a lot and open up more positions and musical options if you learn to master this first octave.
In regards to the POG, and octaver will change your sound. It will lower your register but you will get an effected sound.
Take a look at this recording that I made using a plugin called "8taver" for Reaper. I never tried the POG or HOG but take into account that you will get as a result something like this.
You can also play s Db harp in 5th position for F minor, but that may not be low enough for the sound you are trying to get. OR, you could use a Ab harp in 4th position for F minor which would be plenty low enough.
Thank you for your responses, it's certainly given me a lot to digest. I've been playing around in 2nd, 4th and 5th. I still feel 3rd is the most comfortable key and one thing that I did omit is that I'm playing in the second octave on the Eb, which is going to be way up there. The reason I've avoided the lower octave is due to hitting bends accurately. Bear in mind I'm actually copying a sax solo and we have two sax players in the band, so intonation will be picked up on, but it looks like it's something I'll have to tackle whichever position I play in.
The nice thing about playing minor key material in 4th position is YOU DON'T NEED TO BEND! The ONLY bend you need is 3D** which must be hit dead on accurately in order to play root in the lower register. But if you don't play in the lowest register, you won't need to bend at all.
Yes, playing with horns is the acid test for a harp player's intonation. In this regard, playing minor in 4th is a whole lot easier than playing minor in 3rd.
When you play Low Eb harps, the first thing you need to learn is to DIAL BACK on the breath force and you will also need to keep your embouchure much more relaxed and you'll find that you may need to make a umber of subtle adjustments to your embouchure as well as the inside shape of your mouth to get the best out of them and to get around quickly, here's where using MUCH LESS breath force comes in and the harder the force, the slower you play and the more you're just getting in your own way trying to do anything.
Of all the stock low tuned harps at this point, a stock Seydel outplays any stock Hohner I've ever played, but neither will outplay a custom low tuned harp at all.
The idea of the octave shifter has one HUGE draw back and that's because the high Eb doesn't respond well to a more sax like approach at all and all that octave shift does is just fo the same thing but an octave lower, and having tried one and play more like a Joe Houston, Illinois Jacquet or Red Prysock influenced sax lines on the normal Eb, it just doesn't have the same bite and on the higher pitched Eb's, a more guitar like approach is far more natural than the sax like approach.
I seldom ever used the normal Eb and much prefer the Low Eb because I can play with a more sax oriented approach and they blend better with saxes and the overall sound works better when you're playing more Jump Blues/R&B thing wheras the higher Eb's are just too screechy sounding for that and it still feels too screechy even with an octave shifter. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
First of all sorry to take so long to respond. I've been sick as a dog with a throat infection and temperature and my mind has been on things other than harp.
What you're saying makes a lot of sense. I'm going to work on my low Eb harp. Most of the licks I've been doing are in the upper register, so a bit of reed tweaking and I should get them sounding pretty smooth.
I'm going to look at a Micro Pog as well. Why? because it's a new toy! Seriously though, I think it may help in building a bit of body to the tone. I won't be cutting the original signal, but more blending in a little low end to fill things out more. This, along with the low Eb will give me range I'm looking for without the fiddly lower scale bends on the standard Eb harp. Bear in mind, I'm replacing a sax solo when I've got two sax players in my band. I'm under more than the usual amount of pressure to sound convincing.
I'll post up a vid when I've reached a satisfactory position. In the meantime, many thanks all for the help. It's been really useful hearing opinions such as these.
Steveleigh, it's time to start listening more to sax and less to harp players so you csan get more of a real feel for that and very soon you'll find where much of the entire amplified harp thing REALLY is coming from and Little Walter based much if his stuff from doing exactly that and many of his licks were originally all sax licks and after awhile, you'll be THINKING more like a sax player than the usual harp player.
Much of what William Clarke played are very heavily sax influenced lines, like the opening licks on Fishing Blues on chromatic, and what he's doing is playing Charlie Parker's Yardbird Suite pretty much note for note.
Like the saying Rome wasn't built in a day, none of this is gonna come overnight and needs tons of woodshedding to truly achieve it and working more with horns will be a big educational tool for you and you can add to your rhythm and comping skills with them and I've had experience working in bands with 3 horns and working as part of the horn section playing the same lines or harmonies as they're doing and this requires you to have something the vast majority of the average harp player TOTALLY LACKS, and that's MUSICAL DISCIPLINE. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Thanks for your advice. I have to say, just thinking about doing a harp solo in place of sax is enough to get me thinking. The two horn players are reluctant soloists but will be fierce (and rightly so) critics. I was asked to do a guitar solo, but I'm taking this as an opportunity to bring some harp in.
I agree in what you say about discipline. There are many fine harp players who can really play, but few are ever required to perform a 'reading' or to play the same notes as, or harmonies to other instruments.
Yes, it will be work, but listening to the players here like Boris, Bart, Alex Paclin (seems the Eastern Europe guys have a handle on it), harmonica, in both chromatic and diatonic forms can be very accessible to playing in the style I want to play.
Thanks again.
Last Edited by on Jun 03, 2011 7:43 AM
My experience is largely blues related and working with horns is a whole different thing, especially as part of the horn section and the average player just tends to riff mindlessly and you can't do that in that setting at all, and it's a huge challenge for many, but once you get experience from doing it, it's a blast and you have a huge leg up on the average player, and in every open jam, harp players tend to get intimidated by horn players because, for one thing, horn players are FAR more musically together than the average harp player is, and that's the cold, hard, brutal truth on that. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Hey Bob, I've been playing harp for 23 years, guitar for 26 years and keys for about 20 years. The only band I've ever really played with plays soul, funk and disco and I've played all three instruments with them, so I'm aware and can 'hear' the horn parts fine. It's just that up until the last couple of years, I've been largely unaware of overblows and I've been too set in 2nd position to play harp over this kind of stuff. I'm just back from a gig with them (playing guitar) and I spent the whole time looking lovingly over at the horn section thinking 'one day, I will be with you'.
Heh. It's funny because I know if I get the chance to fill a horn part with harp, I'll be hankering after guitar again, but I think it'll be a great learning curve to use harp for horn parts, and yes, like you say, to have that edge over other harp players won't necessarily make me a better player than the many many great blues harp players out there, but if I can follow the band where the 'blues guy' would be stuck, I'll have that chance to shine. After all, apart from Lee Oskar, how many funk harp players are there?
Thanks for all the great advice. I appreciate the posts. They've given me much pause for thought as you can no doubt tell.
Hey Steve, as I said before. Woodshedding your bendings in the first octave is gonna give you that edge over many harp players that only use (in third position) the second octave. I'm havng classes with mariano Massolo (a wonderful diatonic player) and we have been working this out. Yes at first is hard to get the bendings in tune , but afer some workout things start to get together.
If you want to play with horns, you must at least dominate the bendings of the first octave. You have almost an entire chromatic octave in first position (except for the +1overblow)in there. Thats a lot of notes!! If you hear players like Mariano or Chris Michaleck (RIP!!), they dont' overblow that much, but still they can play over complex chord progressions and that's because they conquered bending!
That's my sugestion. Get bendometer or a chroamtic tuner, and put some discipline in it. 20 minutes a day of practicing your tunning will help a lot!
Another Advice. Listen to harp players like Michael Peloquin, Jimmy Lee and of course, Lee Oskar!. They have a very "horn-like" approach. They can give you new ideas.!
---------- With some latin flavour for you, chico!! :P
