mojojojo
72 posts
May 06, 2011
1:12 AM
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I've been having the hardest time on those fast triplets, such as: 5 draw release to 5 natural, to 6 draw, repeat rapidly.
When I asked a veteran player he said try it while holding the harp in your right hand only. This was really interesting as i've mainly been in "typewriter carriage return mode", jerking the harp down to the lower notes on riffs.
It's a great tip and can open up your playing. Also, you know how the 2-hole shake can start/end on the higher/lower note, but this also works for the rapid tongue flutter embellishment, flick starting on the right note for a change.
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I suck at harmonica!
Jakarta River Blues Band
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MrVerylongusername
1691 posts
May 06, 2011
1:50 AM
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Well that wasn't what I expected!
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Andrew
1331 posts
May 06, 2011
3:04 AM
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What does '5 draw release to 5 natural' mean?
It sounds like a SBWI lick, are you sure it's not the 4 and 5 holes you mean?
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Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
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AirMojo
153 posts
May 06, 2011
4:41 AM
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I often use my thumb on my right hand to push the harp to the left slightly, almost like using a button on a chromatic, to get the harp to move quickly. The meaty part of the left hand will act like a spring and the harp will move back to the right.... just a matter of learning/knowing how to grip the harp "properly".
I started doing this years ago, and have read where others also do this.
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barbequebob
1630 posts
May 06, 2011
7:36 AM
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Trying moving the harmonica with your hands in a small arc, which is easier to do when you tongue block with this, and this is what classical harp teachers tell you to do so you can get around the instrument much faster and avoid head movements than can slow you down.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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mojojojo
73 posts
May 07, 2011
2:53 AM
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oops, meant 5draw bent release to 5draw, over to 6 draw, or the same deal starting on the 3 or 4 draw bent.
Thanks to air and bbq.. but what do you mean by "arcing" in terms of movement?
I suck at harmonica!
Jakarta River Blues Band
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Andrew
1333 posts
May 07, 2011
5:45 AM
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The problem with licks like this is not your hands but your embouchure (and the responsiveness of the harp). As with all things, start slow. Speed up when you get better.
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Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
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hvyj
1388 posts
May 07, 2011
6:22 AM
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"what do you mean by "arcing" in terms of movement?"
He means that you do NOT slide the harp horizontally across your mouth in order to move from hole to hole. Instead, (assuming that you are holding the high holes to your right) if to are moving up the harp you move the LEFT end of the harp slightly in towards you which moves the right end slightly away from you as you move up which shortens the distance you have to move to get to the target hole. This shortens the distance the air aperture in your lips has to move in order to get from hole to hole. Do the opposite to move down.
The movement is easier demonstrated than explained, but it is a VERY SMALL rotation of the harp keeping it the same plane. The arcing movement is extremely slight. But it is NOT a back and forth movement like a typewriter carriage. I'm afraid this explanation is not very clear, but the technique BBQ Bob is referring to involves moving one end of the harp slightly away from from you as the opposite end moves slightly toward you as the harp remains flat between your lips. Your air aperture moves in the direction of the end that moves away from you.
Going from draw bend to blow to the next hole draw is not a tough pattern to execute and should not require any change in grip to do it smoothly at fast tempo.
Last Edited by on May 07, 2011 6:35 AM
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barbequebob
1632 posts
May 09, 2011
7:51 AM
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Hvyj has what I mean right, but this also sounds like one other factor he if you're having such a problem in transition and that you are probably using FAR TOO MUCH breath force and the momentum from that makes transitions extrememly difficult to do and it's like trying to run a 2 minute mile with a 10K pound boat anchor around your neck. If you're trying to play fast, you HAVE to use far less breath force or the only thing you're gonna be doing is making things extremely difficult for yourself, and it gets even worse if you bend past the floor of the bend, because that's when you're using even more breath force than necessary. This is what really sounds like what's really happening here.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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mlefree
43 posts
May 09, 2011
9:46 AM
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For me, this is what the "jaw flick" is all about. Try this: don't move your head or your harp, but "flick" your jaw quickly to the right just enough to catch that 6D note, then "flick it back to the 5D position and repeat. Like any other technique it may take a while for your TMJ joint (temporomandibular or jaw joint) and related musculature to get used to it and you will need to develop speed. The payoff is that this is the same technique used by many top-level players for fast triplets and Irish-style embellishments. Ask Brendan Power or Jason Ricci.
Give it a try but take it easy, as I would think over-doing this could lead to TMJ syndrome, which you don't want.
Michelle
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mr_so&so
432 posts
May 09, 2011
10:34 AM
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Thanks BBQ and Hvyj for the explanation of that "arcing" warble technique. It works for me. My warble is something I've been trying to improve. As a TBer, I find that "arcing" works really well. I'm also working on getting the head-shake technique down, trying to do it with minimal head movement. It's more difficult to do because I'm not used to using those muscles that way. But I figure it's always good to learn how to do something several different ways if possible.
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barbequebob
1633 posts
May 10, 2011
7:46 AM
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When you do any of these things, you have to be 100% FULLY RELAXED physically or you're gonna make things very difficult for yourself. When I saw Big Walter do his warble, he never shook his head and just moved the harp very slightly fron side to side, as also there is now available video evidence that both Little Walter as well as George Harmonica Smith doing this as well.
The arc thing works unreal on TB, but tougher on puckr method, but the arc method allows you to get around very quickly on the instrument using the least amount of movement possible. The classical motto for that is move the harp and not the head.
I use all of those methods as well as both TB and pucker and all of these things come in handy.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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harmonicanick
1178 posts
May 10, 2011
9:39 AM
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You have a choice with these advanced techniques do you move your head or your hands?
I prefer the hands as per Bob
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hvyj
1393 posts
May 10, 2011
1:03 PM
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It doesn't make any difference, but I usually just move the harp (hands) which I've always understood to be the preferred method.
Btw, I primarily LP and I've never found the "arcing" method to be tough or awkward. Whenever I've explained it and demonstrated it to new players, they tend to to over exaggerate the movement as they try to do it. We are talking about an EXTREMELY SMALL or very subtle arcing motion.
Last Edited by on May 10, 2011 1:04 PM
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barbequebob
1635 posts
May 11, 2011
7:48 AM
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@hvyj --- I agree with you that every player new to that technique always overexaggerates the movement and sublte is the operative word but for some, subtle is something not in their vocabulary.
There is another warble method Sonny Terry used where he opened his mouth to cover 2 holes and then used a slight movement of just his tongue from side to side (but NOT using the tip of his tongue, but rather the tip is at the base of the teeth/gums), but this is a much more difficult thing to master and takes tons of woodshedding to master it
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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barbequebob
1636 posts
May 11, 2011
7:50 AM
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@hvyj --- I agree with you that every player new to that technique always overexaggerates the movement and sublte is the operative word but for some, subtle is something not in their vocabulary.
There is another warble method Sonny Terry used where he opened his mouth to cover 2 holes and then used a slight movement of just his tongue from side to side (but NOT using the tip of his tongue, but rather the tip is at the base of the teeth/gums), but this is a much more difficult thing to master and takes tons of woodshedding to master it
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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mojojojo
74 posts
May 14, 2011
4:11 AM
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I sat down for 15 minutes and worked out two quick riffs, a triplet and a 4-noter:
from Tom Bell book: -4' -4 -5 (repeat)
from a Steve Baker book: -4' -4 -4' -3 (repeat)
The arcing and breathing advice helped, but it came down to finding that sweet spot, like when you learn stick-shift for the first time and have to find the spot where the clutch gives you a smooth transition.
For me it was more of a subtle lower lip motion. Lately i've been having some success with "anchoring" with the "Arcing". I have maybe -6 anchored deep in the right side of my mouth and arc the left side, hitting some more draw holes for nice effects. i can really hit the TB octaves with sonic power this way too.
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I suck at harmonica!
Jakarta River Blues Band
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hvyj
1396 posts
May 14, 2011
6:13 PM
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@mojojojo: You know, the patterns you have tabbed out shouldn't be difficult to execute. I don't think the problem lies in what technique you are using to move the harp. Try focusing on breath control and air production.
Keep a dropped and relaxed lower jaw and DEEP embouchure. Also if you are LPing make AS LARGE AN AIR APERTURE AS POSSIBLE consistent with still getting a single note which is probably much larger than you might think.
Okay, after you do that, make sure all airflow is coming from the diaphragm and that your airway is open and relaxed. USE AN UNFOCUSED STREAM OF AIR, This means like you are fogging glass--NOT tight as if you were blowing out a candle.
If you do this, the "sweet spot" as you call it will be easier to find because it becomes bigger.
This is purely speculation on my part, but from the problems you describe, I suspect that you embouchure is not sufficiently deep. The harp should be so deep in you mouth that it only contacts your lips at the corners of your mouth--everywhere else the harp should be so deep that it is in contact with that part of your mouth that is inside the lip line. I like to tilt the holes of the harp down towards my throat. Among other things, i think this helps to stabilize embouchure. But there are a lot of good players who don't tilt. I don't tilt when i am TBing but I do when I LP, which is most of the time.
Last Edited by on May 14, 2011 6:15 PM
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boris_plotnikov
537 posts
May 14, 2011
9:21 PM
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BTW, look at Howard Levy and Brendan Power. For fast runs Howard uses hand + head + jaw movement. Brendan Power uses hand + jaw movement. Jaw horizontal movement is very underestimated technique.
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jimjam
19 posts
May 15, 2011
6:12 AM
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I don't like rapidly shaking my head to warble a couple of notes and prefer to move the harp instead.
Head shaking is disorienting to me, maybe my brain is lose, or my inner ears are not filled with enough fluid. Either way I find it uncomfortable. I'd hate to fall into the front row in the heat of a solo.
Instead I loosen my left hand cup and move my right hand like crossing something out with a pencil. I'll definitely try Brendan's technique Boris, but it must be hard to slide one's jaw to the side and maintain proper embouchure for the next overblow or bent note. Is that what you do? You're pretty amazing.
Another very fast fellow is PT Gazell, I wonder what he would say about this.
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"If you want to hide, find a stage."
~John Popper
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