I looked at the sheet music for The Doors' "Maggie M'Gill." It has no sharps or flats in the key signature, so I picked up my C harp to play in 1st position. It was way too sterile, so I picked up my F harp for 2nd position. It works beautifully (played mostly on the first three holes).
Then I got to thinkin' that the song sounds minor. I looked at the sheet music again, and sure enough the sung melody is based around A. So I figger this song is in Am--Not C. So I'm playing in 5th position with my F harp.
So I'm wondering: How often will 5th position work for a minor key? Do y'all have a quick way of differenciating between a key and it's relative minor?
There aren't any flats in Am, it is just the C major scale starting on the sixth degree of the scale (A). Even a D harp will work, just make sure you don't hit the three draw unbent. Great song, by the way! One of my favorite albums.
You guys are just an infinite source of good information aren't ya!!! :~) What other positions benefit from no "unbent three draw"? Sometimes when improvising I 'feel' that 3d unbent is a 'no go zone' and wonder what position I'm in....
@Rubes asked: "What other positions benefit from no "unbent three draw"?"
Major Pentatonic Scale in 2nd position scan sound OK if leave out the 3" bent note. You can play a lot of pretty stuff and have a lot of fun, Especially in holes 6 through 10.
(As HVYJ would say, "Major Pentatonic 2nd position is THE SAME as Minor Pentatonic in 5th, you just start on 2 blow instead of 2 draw")
---------- The WV State Harmonica Championship at The Diamond Teeth Mary Blues Festival Aug 27th & 28th 2011, Huntington,WV
Last Edited by on May 02, 2011 5:41 AM
5th position works GREAT for playing in minor keys, especially natural minor, but you can also play Dorian minor in the lower register.
One CAN play minor in 2d position but that requires a consistently accurate PRECISE half step bend on draw three each and every time you hit that note even in passing which ain't easy to do for most of us. Also, you must consistently avoid draw seven.
I do quite a bit of minor key playing, but I rarely use 2d position to play minor. I will usually only do it on "Miss You" (D harp in A Minor). BUT I think the harp solo on "Long Train Running" (which is a minor tune) is played in 2d position with the draw 3 and draw 7 being avoided completely. Does anyone know for sure what position the harp solo on the original recording of "Long Train" is played in?
Last Edited by on May 02, 2011 9:21 AM
It's a blues in A, or A minor if you prefer. It would be 5th position on an F harp, but really it's standard 2nd position D harp stuff. ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
Last Edited by on May 02, 2011 9:18 AM
"... just make sure you don't hit the three draw unbent...." Yeah. It's all those bends that make me favor the F harp for this song.
"...5th position works GREAT for playing in minor keys..." & "...simple answer, 'most of the time'..." I'm giving myself a pat on the back for discovering that...even if it was by accident.
"There aren't any flats in Am, it is just the C major scale starting on the sixth degree of the scale (A)...." The melody has no flats, and "Miss Maggie M'Gill", etc is all A(s) except for the "M'." "People down there really like to get it on" has C, D, E and G, then resolves on A. All the phrases in the song resolve on A. This is why I'm thinking Am. If I'm correct, I've answered one of my own questions above (I was referring to looking at the music.).
The F harp works better than the D on this song. The D uses too many blows where I'd rather put some dips & stuff.
5th position works well for natural minor because you've got the flat third, flat sixth and flat seventh WITHOUT HAVING TO BEND!
Also, playing in 5th "feels" a lot like playing in 2d, so it's comfortable for most players.
Now, when you are playing in 5th you can't bend randomly or you may be taken out of minor tonality. So, until you know what you are doing, don't bend any thing but draw 3 and don't bend that more than a whole step. Also, try to avoid draw 5 and draw 9. If you follow this formula, it's pretty hard to hit a really bad note playing natural minor in 5th position. It's actually a pretty easy position to play in.
@hvyj Long Train is played 2nd position, and you're right there aren't any 3 draws played except as a gliss when going to the 2 draw. Of course it sounds much better if you bend the 3 draw a half step during the glissando.
@gene Back to your original question on how often will 5th work My simple rule is to use 3rd on blues-based minor songs, as this gives an expressive flat-five on the 6 draw and the 3 draw 3 step bend. I'd also use 3rd if the song is a Dorian Minor; the quick test is if the IV chord is major then use 3rd.
Otherwise I tend to use 5th. I don't use 4th much as it's too reminiscent of straight harp which I'm hopeless at.
I'd use a D harp on the Doors song for what it's worth. Seems to need that feel, though a G harp in 3rd is ok. Sounds like there's a C major chord in the last climb up of the verse?
@GamblersHand: Playing minor blues in 5th, if you bend 3 draw a half step, that is the flat fifth. Drop 3 draw a whole step and you have the fourth. So, FWIW, i think 5th is much better than 3rd for NATURAL minor blues (minor IV chord).
Btw, in 5th if you drop 4 draw a half step and you have the MAJOR sixth for Dorian minors. (Blow 4 =flat sixth). Some tunes (like "Chitlins Con Carne" modulate between Dorian minor and natural minor and 5th is a good position to use for tunes like that.
4th position is useful if you need major second in the melody a lot. In 5th you can only get the major second by bending two draw a half step or bending 9 blow a half step. 4th position is great for the John Coltrane tune "Equinox" which is a very cool minor key blues. I also like playing "Afro Blue" in 4th. But, yeah, 4th is a lot like 1st and has a completely different "feel" than 2d, 3rd or 5th.
Last Edited by on May 02, 2011 12:27 PM
@hvyi Yes realised after I pushed send that I hadn't mentioned the flat-5th possible in the lower register in 5th position - though not in the upper register without the 6 overblow.
It's probably more down to what I'm used to and what I've heard others play, but for some reason I attribute 3rd position to "more bluesy" minor playing.
Well, that brings up another question. Maybe another thread, but what-to-heck... The key signature in Cars Hiss By My Window is E, but every G and every D in the melody is marked natural. (The keyboard notation is full of accidentals...All over the place.) So why did they bother putting those extra sharps in the key signature? This certainly isn't the first time I've seen that kind of thing.
I played with the youtube above wiht an F in 5th and a G in 3rd. I had more fun with the G in 3rd. In 3rd you can get that root minor chord that's not there in 5th. I found 3rd to be more expresive for this tune.
---------- The WV State Harmonica Championship at The Diamond Teeth Mary Blues Festival Aug 27th & 28th 2011, Huntington,WV
No, it's not too late in the thread. Thanks for the input. I'll give the G another try. I was thinking the F was more expressive because of all those bends.--Well...With all the bends that could be added to the draws...
Also, "People down there really like to get it on" sounds good an octave higher.
Last Edited by on May 03, 2011 4:01 PM
Hi @gene, I think that C and am are different keys, but complementary too. Sometime we have major and minor chords in the same tune: //Cmaj/ am / dm / G7 //
So it's hard to say: is it minor or major tune? The first chord could be tricky sometimes :o) So we should look at the LAST chord in all tune (not only chorus).
This tune Maggie M'Gill is a minor definitely. You could play solo in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th position pretty easy. We have to remember about avoid notes (major third and sixth).
If you would like to play more complicated songs with minor and major chords it would be good to forget about positions and play melodies. Please check "Autumn Leaves" let say in C/am: /dm7/ G7/ Cmaj7/ Fmaj7/ bm7b5/ E7 / am7/ am7 / /dm7/ G7/ Cmaj7/ Fmaj7/ bm7b5/ E7 / am7/ am7 / /bm7b5/ E7 / am7 / am7 / dm7 / G7 / Cmaj7 / /bm7b5/ E7 / am7 Ab7 / gm7 Gb7 / Fmaj7/ E7 / am7/ am7//
You could play it in 1st position: ......C D E F G A B C or 4th position: A B C D E F G A......
In fact there are the same notes, but different tonical centrum ( C for 1st and A for 4th).
I hope it will help you a little :o) Best greetings
