I am wondering about this for quite some time here after reading through the posts. All the time I see people stating that bending from the throat is the best or sometimes only way to achieve a truly great tone, to have good intonation on your bends, to play fast but accurate, bla bla bla.
To me, the throat does not include the tongue. So if people are stating that they are purely bending with the throat, I read that their tongue is not moving at all. Is that truly you do it?
I have played for quite some time now. I feel I got all the techniques down. I am happy with the intonation I get on my bends, I can do all overblows/overdraws, sustain them as long as I want, bend them, started playing some valves now (which I recommend all of you to try). When harmonica players hear me play, the mostly compliment my tone and when I was enrolled in the Howard Levy Harmonica School, and I uploaded a video, Howard immediately said my tone was good and that I got the intonation right on my bends. I'm not trying to brag here, not at all, there are HEAPS of things about my playing that need improvement. But my tone and bends are not things that I am working on primarily. They can still improve, but I'm quite happy with it. BUT: If I would have to describe how I bend, It comes primarily from the back of my tongue. To do it, it is off course very important to have all other muscles relaxed, breath from the diaphragm, etc... But what defines the pitch, primarily the back of the tongue. Higher bends or higher harps --> movement shifts more towards front of tongue.
Even when I bend tongue blocking, bends come primarily from back of tongue. The front of my tongue blocks the holes. I'm primarily a lip purser however.
When I look at instructional vids of experts of our beloved instrument, I get the feeling the tongue is a main factor in bending. Look at these: Howard Levy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy9VqpTBj5M Jason Ricci: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPsWxPK9304&feature=relmfu
So guys, what are your thoughts? Do you really think 'throat' bending is the only way to go?
I do not use my tongue to draw bend. I can bend with my tongue flat on the floor of my mouth or with the tip of my tongue on the roof of my mouth. I bend by constricting my throat--which may actually be the ROOT of my tongue which is so far back that it feels like my throat.
Is this the "only way to go?" No. There are some VERY good players who don't bend this way.
But I find that it gives me better depth of tone, more even tone, a more even attack, MUCH better speed and greater accuracy.
Generally speaking, the farther back in your oral cavity (mouth/throat) you can make the muscle movements necessary to bending, the richer your tone will be. I got this idea from a David Barrett promo email several years ago at a time when I was trying hard to improve my tone. So I started working on moving everything farther and farther back and eventuality I got to the point that the part of my tongue that is in my mouth was no longer being used to accomplish bends. Among other things, this allows you to keep your tongue low and out of the way when you play which creates a larger and less obstructed oral resonance chamber.
A complimentary technique is to articulate separation between notes by starting and stopping your diaphragm instead of tapping the tip of your tongue against the back of your top front teeth. Not regularly using your tongue to articulate separation between notes creates a more even tone and more even attack. However some passages can't be played this way and occasional tongue articulation will still be necessary. Also, tongue articulation is also necessary for a strong staccato effect when you need it. Again, is this "the only way to go?' No. There are some VERY good players who don't articulate note separation by starting and stopping the diaphragm.
Except for the initial idea from the Barrett email, I didn't come up with these techniques from anything I've seen in instructional materials. I've been playing a long time and worked this stuff out on my own. I find it VERY effective and I'm not by any means unique. There are some VERY good players who also play this way. Will Scarlett is one who comes to mind. It sounds like Butterfield played this way as well, but it's hard to be sure.
There are some related techniques that go along with this like deep embouchure, large air aperture, open relaxed airway, deep diaphragmatic air production, etc. But these are fundamental for achieving good tone whether or not you use your tongue to bend or articulate separation between notes. I also find it helpful to TILT the harp when I am LPing, but, again, there are some VERY good players who don't.
Btw, in general, many of the most important things I've learned about playing diatonic harp over the years are not comprehensively discussed in any printed instructional materials I've seen and, frankly, a lot of stuff I see recommended in a lot printed instructional materials is just plain wrong based on my experience--like, for example, making your lip opening the size and shape of sipping through a straw when you LP when, in reality, your air aperture should be AS LARGE AS POSSIBLE consistent with still be able to get a single note which is quite a bit larger than an opening for sipping through a straw.
"So if people are stating that they are purely bending with the throat, I read that their tongue is not moving at all. Is that truly you do it?" Yep. That's how I do it.
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2011 5:15 AM
When it comes to techniques that cannot be viewed without medical equipment and are usually explained vocally or in written form there will always be discrepencies due to the interpretation of the given information. Someone who claims to only bend from the throat may or may not be actually doing this. How can it be proven? The base of the tongue is in the throat so someone who thinks they are bending using the throat will explain it as such, but may actually be bending by using the base of the tongue. Who's to know?
When I cover bending with students I'll always ask them to describe what they are feeling at a given moment i.e. what their tongue is doing etc. They may reply that their tongue is not doing anything until I probe further by asking if they can feel any part of the roof of their mouth with their tongue. They may then reply with a 'yes' which means their tongue is up. We'll then ascertain whether their tongue is down at certain points and so on. Basically, the majority of people are not aware of or in touch with what is going on with their embouchure or respitory system.
Furthermore, I have found that most people who claim to truly bend using only the throat do not have as accurate intonation as those who use the tongue in some fashion to aid control. Maybe throat bending will give good enough intonation to be quite passable in a blues context, but maybe not accurate enough to play a familiar melody where if the intonation is off those wrong notes will really stick out. Even the tiniest contraction or movement of the tongue can have a big impact on control and if a player uses such a movement then they cannot claim to truly bend with the throat alone. I refuse to believe that there is or ever has been a player, alive or dead, whose tongue, when bending, is just lying limp in their mouth like a wet rag.
---------- "You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
Is throat bending the only way to go? No, of course not. That's like saying tongue blocking is superior to lip-pursing (which many people still erroneously say), it really comes down to the way you learn most comfortably, and recognizing the advantages and disadvantages of both, like hvyj says.
Adam does a great job at comparing and discussing the way he achieves the same effects from tongue blockers by using his own lip-pursing techniques, but he also is capable of tongue blocking those same techniques, he just prefers one or the other for certain situations, based on the way he learned to apply them.
I would highly recommend you seek the importance of learning both, and then add throat bending to your list of skills. Then, you can make this comparison/transition for yourself. It seems that you are an accomplished player, so why not add another technique to your repertoire that can only advance you further as a player? Never stop growing and perfecting and learning, that's the key to being a great musician.
As for the technique itself: I wouldn't say the tongue is always completely stationary, it's just that the movements are very subtle. When changing the pitches between each 1/2 step for example, I can definitely feel a stiffening at the back of my tongue and the tip usually ends up getting pressed firmly against the back of my bottom teeth at some point, but this is a stark difference compared to tongue-heavy bending, where my tongue curls upwards slightly.
That said, I actually can bend notes using a completely relaxed tongue and just using the swallowing muscles in my throat, but to me it feels like a less efficent manipulation of airflow without just a little tongue articulation (the stiffening I mentioned earlier). Not sure what this does to my tone, but I'll admit that I don't get very many compliments from Howard Levy, hahaha.
There are TBers who bend with their tongue on the harp. It's not really involved in the bending. I can't do it,but I've noticed the tongue's not really doing anything when I bend. It comes from the back of my throat. Or maybe the very base of my tongue? At SPAH last year,Dennis Gruenling showed me that I wasn't really using my tongue when I bend. Never realized it until he pointed it out.
I have to agree and say that 90 percent of players who say they are bending from the throat are using the back part of thier tongue and keeping the front part stationary giving the impression they are not using the tongue.
I posted this same question awhile back and I thought I could bend using the tongue or the throat but after really concentrating I think what was being done as someone suggested above is the bending can be accomplish further forward or further back using the tongue.
THe only exception where I find I use the tongue and partly the throat is with the blue third where I constrict my throat more then with other bends.
I've started doing this for a number of reasons. It doesn't take as much physical movement to actually achieve the bend, and I can go back and forth between a bend and an overblow really quickly (which I am also starting to do using just my throat). It feels like I'm putting less strain on the harp by bending this way as well. It becomes less about pulling the air in a certain way, and more about changing the resonant frequency within your throat to achieve the bend. I'm not at it yet (or anything in regards to harp playing, for that matter) but it certainly feels better to me than using my tongue.
"Furthermore, I have found that most people who claim to truly bend using only the throat do not have as accurate intonation as those who use the tongue in some fashion to aid control."
Well, it is certainly easier to LEARN to bend to properly intonated pitch using the tongue, but with experience I do NOT agree that it is inherently more accurate than bending with the throat. The acid test of intonation for me is playing jazz heads accurately along with a horn or horns. I am able to do that with consistent accuracy if I know the line I'm supposed to be playing. Also, i play in 5th position regularly where i have to drop the three hole draw an accurate whole step to play the fourth degree of the scale and a half step to hit the flat fifth. Also, playing in 5th i have to drop the draw two a half step to play the major second of the scale. I am able consistently hit these bends accurately and on pitch on demand when necessary to play particular melodies. I also occasionally use 4th position where i have to drop the three draw a whole step to play root in the lower register and i can do that with consistent accuracy, and that bend requires precise intonation since it is the key note. Ok, using a flat fifth may not require precise intonation, but the rest of these 5th and 4th position bends do require precision or the player may be taken out of minor scale tonality. So, it is my experience that while "throat" (or root of the tongue) bending may initially be more difficult to use with proper intonation, once learned, it is most certainly NOT any less accurate than using the tongue to bend. If it was, I wouldn't be able to function effectively playing in 4th and 5th positions and i wouldn't be able to intonate correctly playing with horns.
But, the real advantage to not using the tongue to bend or to articulate separation between notes is SPEED. If you want to play a fast sax line at sax speed you simply can't do it if you are using the tongue. You CAN do it if you use the throat to bend and the diaphragm to articulate separation between notes assuming that you have good technique and can actually get the necessary notes on a diatonic harp (i don't OB).
I do agree that what i am calling the throat may actually be the base of the tongue which is so far back that it may seem to be the throat. But, with all due respect, to suggest that throat bending doesn't produce sufficiently accurate enough intonation to use for playing non blues melodies on pitch is pure B.S. It may be an unfamiliar technique to many and it is NOT usually discussed in the printed instructional material, but it is NOT inherently less accurate.
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2011 10:42 AM
@hvyj - We weren't talking about the articulation of notes by using the throat we were addressing bending, but with all due respect I completely disagree with your stance that you can only play fast sax lines and such by using the throat (glottis?) or diaphragm to articulate. I'd be interested to hear the points of view of many players such as Christelle, Alex Paclin, Bart L, Jason Ricci, Boris P and our host Adam on how they approach articulating fast runs. I know that on fast runs, when not required to play legato, I'll use my tongue to articulate whether I'm T Blocking or L pursing. Most tongue blockers with the front or side of the tongue on the comb will articulate notes by using the base of the tongue at the back of the throat to articulate a 'G' syllable for example, so the tongue is still being used. I don't want to turn this into a LP vs TB debate so don't think of this as such, but I can't remember hearing a T blocker hit staccato passages with as much speed and accuracy as Jason. I'd love to hear some examples though as my mind is ready to be changed.
You say that your intonation using throat bending is accurate, and that's admirable, but then go on to say that what you are calling your throat may actually be the base of the tongue. So my point still stands. If you hear someone with great intonation and they say they are 'throat bending', are they really only using the throat or are they using the tongue, but are not aware of it just because they are not using the tip or middle section? How would you, as a third party, really know without using cameras or an MRI etc? You wouldn't. You'd have to take their word for it. Their word which is completely open to interpretation.
@Tuckster - You said "At SPAH last year,Dennis Gruenling showed me that I wasn't really using my tongue when I bend."
That's interesting. How exactly did he do that?
---------- "You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2011 3:29 PM
Jason is very fast. Sugar Blue who is a full time tongue blocker is also extremely fast.
I acknowledge that what i am calling the "throat" may actually be the root of the tongue, but I think the distinction to be drawn is between using that part of the tongue that is in the player's MOUTH or that part of the anatomy that is located farther back/down in the player's THROAT even if it may anatomically be the root of the tongue. The distinction is whether the muscles being moved are located in the oral cavity or in the throat canal. We shouldn't confuse anatomy with semantics. Each location is different whether both involve tongue muscles or not.
I agree that good staccato necessitates articulation with the tongue. No other way to do it effectively. I am a mixed embouchure player, but I primarily LP. Personally, i think my tone, evenness of attack, bending accuracy and speed improved after I learned to "throat" bend effectively. But, as i said in my first post in this thread there are certainly many VERY good players who don't use this technique. The only point on which I vigorously disagree with you is your assertion that "throat" bending is less accurate than "tongue" bending. I agree that it's harder to LEARN to bend accurately to pitch using the "throat" instead of the "tongue" but once the "throat" technique is mastered, it's just as accurate as anything else and, in my experience, is considerably faster to execute in performance. But, YMMV.
Hvyj - Even though you say you disagree with me about throat vs tongue bending and accuracy etc. I actually think that we are in complete agreement. I'm quite a literal person so 'throat bending' implies to me the use of the throat with no participation from the tongue. You define 'throat bending' as being accomplished in the throat, maybe using the base of the tongue, but certainly not the front part inside the mouth.
This enjoyable debate just serves to prove the point that for techniques that cannot be shown without the aid of medical equipment the terms or names used to describe them can be interpreted differently by different people.
One thing that I'd like to add though, and this is not aimed at you Hvyj, is that the choice to use the front part of the tongue to articulate or bend is not just about accuracy, but about the desired sound overall. I find that even when bending correctly from the back of the throat, using the tip of the tongue to control intonation gives a more brass-like, brighter, trumpety tone especially if you also articulate using the tip of the tongue as a horn player would. This sound can be very desirable at times (I love that trumpety tone). The more tonal choices you have at your disposal the more versatile and interesting your playing will be. Tone is very subjective, but why limit yourself to just one?
---------- "You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2011 4:53 PM
"I find that even when bending correctly from the back of the throat, using the tip of the tongue to control intonation gives a more brass-like, brighter, trumpety tone especially if you also articulate using the tip of the tongue as a horn player would."
I'm not sure I'd describe it the same way, but I agree that there is a definite tonal difference. I think I get a deeper, smoother, fatter and more even tone when throat bending. I agree that tongue bending and tongue articulation produces a tone that has more of an edge and is not as even or fat, which I would describe as more "harmonica like." So, yeah, i know what you're talking about. It all comes down to how a particular player WANTS to sound.
I often say that i don't play my harmonica like it's a harmonica. That certainly shapes my preferences about how I WANT to sound.
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2011 5:27 PM
I draw bend, blow bend, overbend, whatever with the throat. You can see it working. The shape and opening size of the throat is how I bend accuarte half steps suchs as on 3 draw......You can also totally throat bend and still articulate "tonguing"on the roof of your mouth. Bending an overblow is done with relaxed throat constriction. I'm with hvyj...tone is deeper smoother fatter with throat. Sure my tongue moves...but it is a residual effect of moving the throat. Tongue goes wherever the throat leads it. If you wave your arm your hand will probably move too.
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2011 5:54 PM
Hvyj - Obviously tonal difference would depend somewhat on the harp and gear used also. Out of interest I'd very much like to hear how you sound. Do you have any examples that you could post?
Harpdude - What do you mean when you say "you can see it working"?
---------- "You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
Last Edited by on Apr 29, 2011 6:23 PM
Your tongue moves as its attached to your throat. With the lower bends my tongue gets pulled back and tends to flatten more making larger cavity. Also my Adams apple move up or down.
Words, they are so limited, it isnt to be explained, its to be experienced, only, and only when you take the time to learn it, you can understand what is written here.....
It is a great thread, thanks LeeEdwards & hvyj.. now I wonder why another threads can't be like this, too many times that people in here had a fight over terms and opinions. This is a very good example of how different opinions can turn out friendly & productive. Thanks guys.
@LeeEdwards: I agree that mic and equipment choice has a lot to do with tonal differences. I tend to set up relatively clean, and i don't use bullet mics.
I don't have the equipment or computer knowledge to record myself, but a friend of mine recorded a performance of one of his original tunes called "Maybe Reggae" when i sat in with one of his bands. It is in G natural minor so i played an Eb harp in 5th position. I'd never played the tune before and now that I know the tune I play it a little differently these days.
Anyway, if you want to listen, go here: http://www.vytas.devicegroup.com/audio.php
You have to hit the drop down down menu and go to 2010 Vytas and his Eclectic Outfit Manhattans 0709 and click on the second track, "Maybe Reggae." I think this is the only tune I'm on. I played on others that night, but i don't think they were recorded.
I'm playing through a 545 Ultimate into an SWR Baby Baby Blue acoustic bass amp with a pedal board, but the only effect I'm actually using is a Carbon Copy Delay. There's not a lot of precision bending going on, but the bending I am doing is pretty representative of the tone i get. I like to think there is an evenness to my tone and attack when i bend which I get from using my "throat." Of course, the bass amp thickens and darkens my sound which also tends to smooth out the tone.
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2011 6:00 AM
@Hvyj - There's also a bit of harp on 'Don't Look Back', but the harp player is uncredited. Is that you too.
I like the sound of that 545. I currently use a vintage 545 with the pistol grip and have often been tempted to purchase a 545 ultimate from Greg Heumann because the pistol grip is so heavy. I'm a simple gear man myself. The recording on the front page of my website (click my profile name here if you are interested in hearing it) was made about 4 years ago using my 545, delay (can't remember if it was my Lone Wolf or not) and my Danelectro DM-10 amp. I made a conscious effort to get it as brass like as I could muster so I used plenty of tongue tip articulation.
@silpakorn - You are welcome. There is certainly no other harmonica board out there that offers the same amount of great information that can be found here. Differences in opinion are very healthy indeed as far as I'm concerned and there really is no need for threads to ever take a turn for the nasty. The best information is always uncovered through respectful debate rather than namecalling, sarcasm and hostility.
Every member here is lucky to be a part of such a great community.
---------- "You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2011 6:40 AM
@LeeEdwards: Yeah, that's me on "Don't Look Back." I forgot about that one. Nothing particularly inspired.
My 545 Ultimate is lo-z and i use an IMT to go into the amp. I also have a hi-z 545 with a volume control and modified to use a guitar cord jack. The VC and guitar jack mod were made by Greg Heumann before he started making the Ultimate series. The hi-z 545 is hotter and has an edgier/grittier tone. I occasionally use it with a Princeton Reverb Reissue when i want to get a dirtier or more overdriven tone (which is NOT how i usually set up).
Most of the time i use my lo-z 545 Ultimate with whatever amp I'm using or if I'm going straight into the PA board. Playing with my blues band, i go into a Super Reverb Reissue. These days my 545 Ultimate is my favorite mic and i use it just about all the time. Great harp mic and very versatile, IMHO. (I actually have two of them--I rely on it so much and i gig regularly, so i bought a spare, just in case.)
In my blues band we don't like to mic any amp unless we are micing all the amps. This is to maintain a balance in the sound of the band as a whole. I don't subscribe to the "use a small amp and mic it" philosophy.
But i certainly agree that equipment selection affects tone which is why i use different amps for different gigs. I also use a different pedal board with my tube amps than i do with my SWR bass amp (which has a tube preamp and a solid state power stage). I also agree that simple is better. The less gear you use for a particular gig, the fewer problems you will have. Not to mention better efficiency in setting up and tearing down.
As far as harps go, i prefer harps with full length unvented covers because I think they have a darker, smoother and more focused tone which I think suits my style of play. I also only play ET harps which keeps me in tune with the rest of the band since i regularly play in multiple positions. I can't stand how all the flat notes on compromise tuned harps make me sound.
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2011 9:01 AM
I would say for me the tongue is what changes the air passage angel to the reed. Sometimes I just use the tip of the tongue to execute a bend ---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
LeeEdwards I can't TB bend the low 3 holes. So I asked Dennis how he does it. He asked me to play the bends on the 3 hole and pay attention to what my tongue was doing.(LP) Lo & behold, the part I would put on the comb to TB didn't move ( although it might have quivered a bit). Didn't help-my TB bends down low sound like s***. I just LP them and quit worrying about it. But it showed me I don't use that part of the tongue to bend. As someone said, mine will flatten for deeper bends. It's involved,just not the part you'd TB with.
@Tuckster: Try tongue switching so you are blocking the holes to the RIGHT of the 1, 2 or 3 hole you are trying to bend. I'm not an accomplished TB'r but i can do it and I find it a whole lot easier to bend the 1, 2 and 3 if I tongue switch.
@ Micha, I'm exactly in the middle of the two things as well - pretty much in your position but I've made a transition just this week after I convinced myself to really give TB a go. Bending had never been an issue for me doing it LP, it was slightly more difficult when I first try to do it TB but right now my point of view about TB and LP is that the difference is only in embrosure which is just the gasket - just like Dave Barrett said in his website. I also find that trying to directly control the muscles in your throat that you never really use is not an easy way to do it and will cause a lot of fustrations. What I found is all kinds of bending & vibrato is pretty much the same thing ( not including throat staccato - that's so wrong when somebody try to call it vibrato ) the only different that make them sounding differently is the size of the chamber in your mouth. By this I mean, all kinds of vibrato for example ; to me having the same principle and you can just change the way it sounds by changing articulation that will change the size of the chamber in your mouth without thinking of which unusual muscles to use - the articulation will bring it there. Try it for yourself, ju-u-u-u for the smallest chamber and then goo-goo-goo.. tongue will move to the middle of the mouth then koof-koof-koof your tongue will be at the very back of your mouth and this is the end of the feeling in the mouth and you should already get a bent vibrato by now and the last one is oof-oof-oof which will move down into your throat and you'll not feeling that the part of your tongue in your mouth is working anymore even though it might moves. This is problably why people explain it differently but to me it's the same thing, same movement and principle just different muscles used. Now if you can control different muscles to do it a lot slower, independent & accurate in pitch you can apply it to the bend.. just my way to learn it.
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2011 10:48 PM
@Micha: There are a few fundamentals that are important which sort of go along with the throat bending technique, although they are also useful in general. i don't wish to sound condescending, but i am unfamiliar with how you play, so I'm going to go over the fundamentals first.
Use DEEP embouchure. The harp should be so deep in your mouth that it only contacts your lips at the corners of your mouth--everywhere else the harp will be inside the lip line and in contact with that part of your mouth that is inside the lip line. The jaw is dropped and relaxed and your throat/airway is relaxed and open--like you are in the middle of a yawn. Your air aperture (the opening in your lips) is AS LARGE AS POSSIBLE consistent with still being able to get a single note which may be larger than you think--this is very important. Your air production must be from the diaphragm (not the lips or mouth) and your air stream should be unfocused (Lee Sankey uses the example of comparing fogging glass to blowing out a candle) like you are fogging glass. I also like to tilt the holes of the harp down towards my throat, but there are good players who don't tilt.
The way I taught myself to "throat bend" is by making a conscious effort to make the tongue movements necessary to achieve a draw bend farther and farther back on my tongue. This took a while and required alot of conscious effort. Eventually I moved everything so far back that I was using the very root of my tongue which is in my throat. When i got to that point it feels like you are constricting your throat slightly--not much muscle movement is required at all.
Since then i saw a brief clip on YouTube of Will Scarlett speaking at SPAH about not using the tongue to bend. The clip was extremely short and actually cut away before Will Scarlett was done. But his explanation was to keep your tongue on the floor of your mouth and subvocalize "eee-ooow" as you draw in order to get the bend. This works. In fact, you don't really need the "eee" part of it if you want to hit the bend directly instead of bending down to it.
You control the 2 two hole draw bends by subvocalizing "ooow" for the half step and "ohh" for the whole step. The 3 three hole draw bends are "ooow" (half step) "ohh"(hole step) and "ahh" (step and a half). The half step bends in holes four and six are "ooow." Subvocalizing these requires no tongue movement from that part of the tongue that is in your mouth.
The action required to throat bend feels like you are constricting your throat, but you are actually probably just flexing the root of your tongue (which is in you throat) slightly. Once you've got it, the movement is actually quite slight which is why I say it allows the player to implement a bend very fast.
Also, because you can keep your tongue on the floor of your mouth you are working with a larger and less obstructed oral resonance chamber which fattens and deepens tone. And because you are making all relevant muscle movements in the throat your tone becomes fuller and more even.
I hope i have explained this clearly enough. it's easier to demonstrate than it is to explain in written words. It's awkward to learn at first but then it becomes like riding a bicycle--you wonder why it used to be so hard to do when you were first trying.
EDIT: The sound/subvocalization I have spelled out as "ooow" is meant to sound like the "ew" in the word "few."
Last Edited by on May 01, 2011 5:47 AM
What do you mean Diggs? You think playing bends from further down the throat favours a certain type of playing?
You told you play from tongue (even tip sometimes). Do you feel any advantages/disadvantages? How do you think it affects a certain style?
Would be great indeed to get some more experts or non-experts talk about their experiences. It's definitely a vague subject as it's hard to see what's going on in your mouth.
Micha......I am what Buddha called a "throat player". In my opinion, this is a great way to learn if you prefer fat tone and want the most control possible over a note.
Because I play from the throat and below, my embrochure never has to change except for throat position and airflow direction. With tons of practice and good harp set-up, you can move between notes quickly while incorporating draw bends, blow bends, overdraws, and overblows.
I have recently started teaching from my home and have three new students. We spent the first couple of weeks on nothing but getting a big tone from deep in the tummy....big open relaxed mouth and throat and focusing on full sound with minimal effort and total body relaxation. I then asked them all to try bending the two hole draw on a C harp by using the throat...they all bent the note on the first try.
I'm sure some will disagree, but bending from the throat (which will pull along the back of the tongue) makes the four notes of the 3 hole draw a piece of cake. Control of bends has been much easier for me.
I posted this video awhile back while the topic was overbends....but this is also playing and bending from the throat.
Does throat bending favor a certain type player? You tell me. I have studied Mr. Ricci's playing and I can see no other way that he can move so quickly and cleanly between blow bends, draw bends, blows, draws, and overbends, while adding these cool inflections and nuances unless he is doing it from the throat.
You are a great player. Personally, I thought you should have won the Bushman competition. As you may or may not recall i sent you an email at the time saying so. I am not in your league and you also have a music degree. I'm self taught.
I know that a lot of very good players i respect do not throat bend. But I'm pretty confident that the technique I described in my last post does work. If you think the technique I have described is flawed, please feel free to criticize in brutal detail. I am open minded and I welcome the opportunity to learn from a player of your caliber.
Whatever the objective merits of the throat bending technique I've described, my playing improved after i started playing that way and I do believe that technique works in practice--at least it does for me. My execution may be inconsistent from time to time, but I don't consider occasional screw ups on my part to invalidate the technique itself. But I would welcome whatever you have to say that may be to the contrary even if you think I'm completely FOS. Thanks.
@Harpdude61 - You said "I'm sure some will disagree, but bending from the throat (which will pull along the back of the tongue) makes the four notes of the 3 hole draw a piece of cake"
I agree with you. No well executed technique on the harp would be possible without involving the throat and tongue in unison though because they are both crucial parts to our embouchure.
My aim here when I first replied was to get people thinking more analytically and explaining in excruciating detail what is going on so that anybody wishing to learn could be presented with as much crucial information as possible because when someone asks what 'Throat Bending' is it is not good enough to say that it is bending with the throat. That answer provides no extra information and can be interpreted literally or figuratively. The person who takes the information literally could be trying for weeks to get a good bend without involving the tongue at all with no success and give up the harp in frustration. and that would be a real shame.
So far the majority in this thread who flat out denied that they use their tongue to bend have conceded that they do actually use their tongue in some way when bending.
To quote you again Harpdude61 - "Sure my tongue moves...but it is a residual effect of moving the throat. Tongue goes wherever the throat leads it. If you wave your arm your hand will probably move too."
Sounds like common sense to me, but as a teacher (congrats on the new students by the way) it would be very unwise to assume that everyone will have the same amount of common sense or logical reasoning that you do, hence the reason why it is important to provide thorough and adequate descriptions. Every unsatisfactory answer you give to a student's question could mean the loss of that student. When it is your livelihood at stake the details are hugely important.
What I find really disappointing is that in a thread based on such an interesting and beneficial topic (compared to some of the the rubbish that crops up here) there are only a few of us sharing our opinions. I guarantee that there are plenty of really good players ,including some pros, reading this who are very quick to post up a 'look at me' video or thread when they have a product to sell or need publicity. It would be really nice for them to weigh in here and provide the benefit of their experience.
---------- "You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
Last Edited by on May 02, 2011 10:27 AM
I think I do both. I mean, my tongue and throat moves. I can bend when tongue blocking, which I think is similar to what at least hvyj is saying, but, in general, I think I bend like I am talking.
Meaning I breath from the diaphgram but use my tongue to form syllabels. I don't know if that is right or wrong, but I won't make any claims to being a tone monster or anything.
I think in learning to overbend, I decided bending with my mouth was ok. By that I mean I visualize the note coming out through the back of my teeth, so I move the air to that angle with my tongue.
Honestly, I didn't post here because I am having a hard time differentiating between approaches discussed and I am not sure how to explain what I do, nor do I know if it is good advice.
I DO know that I sometimes don't put the harmonica far enough in my mouth - that makes my tone crappy. I have to be swallowing the thing. This happens frequently when playing with a mic.
Acoustically, I think I have much better tone. Recently, since getting a new lap top, I've been recording my practices to see and hear what I am doing. I then often compare it to the acoustic playing of other harmonica players I like. As far as tone goes, I am very comfortable with where I am at acoustically now that I've worked on NOT articulating notes so much.
From day one, after reading a David Barrett book, I felt the need to articulate to start notes. Then I realized that I articulated all my bends too. That attack sometimes is too harsh when amped.
I do hear where I need to be careful on my low octave bends in the higher keys as I bend with my tongue and it can sound tinny. I naturally do that less on lower harps.
In fact, I MUCH prefer B and lower. I seem to drop all my bad habits when using those keys. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
I'm not going to criticize anyone since if it works for someone that's great. A question was asked if it was different for other types of music. The technique is the same for me I may just change my tone color.
That's why I put up the two youtubes.
hvyi thanks for the Bushman vote. I still I haven't gotten one LOL ---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
Not to stray, but I am trying my own methods of teaching and told my students up front that if they want to play like the little cartoon that came with the harp I was the wrong teacher for them. None of them knew that the choices of TBing, LPing, T curling were available. I teach the way I play.
As far as teaching the throat method. I had them stand in front of a mirror with me and watch what happens when we bend notes.
We have not even learned any licks yet. They hoped playing little songs would come faster.
I have them convinced that getting hung up on tone, relaxation, minimal output for maximum sound, and breathing are good things. I also have them do a test each week to see how long they can hold a two hole draw without letting the tone waiver.
All have great tone and control for someone playing about a month.
"I do hear where I need to be careful on my low octave bends in the higher keys as I bend with my tongue and it can sound tinny. I naturally do that less on lower harps."
"I DO know that I sometimes don't put the harmonica far enough in my mouth - that makes my tone crappy. I have to be swallowing the thing. This happens frequently when playing with a mic."
IMHO, "throat" bending deepens and evens out tone. When i was working on learning this, I worked very hard at doing it consistently AND at keeping deep embouchure and relaxed oral resonance chamber consistently all of which seemed very difficult at first. Of course, I don't OB, so i don't find myself having to adjust technique in order to do that, which may make keeping a consistent embouchure easier for me to achieve than if I was an OB player. I find that both deep embouchure and throat bending have become almost automatic for me now. I am an electric player and I ALWAYS perform with a cupped mic--never "in air."
Now, in adopting the throat bending technique I have pretty much abandoned all other bending techniques except that I have found that if my embouchure is good and deep and I keep a large and relaxed oral resonance chamber and deep diaphragmatic air production I can bend to pitch simply by altering the size of the oral resonance chamber. I haven't really been working at that and I don't do it regularly, but it was a by product of learning the techniques I described in my post addressed to Micha.
But my point, FWIW, is that it took a great deal of disciplined effort and practice to get to the point where I consistently throat bend and consistently maintain deep embouchure and large relaxed oral resonance chamber--and by "consistently" I mean ALL THE TIME. This has given me a consistent depth and evenness of tone that I like and I think makes my playing somewhat more accurate. I have more consistent control and more consistency in my tone. I suppose I may sacrifice a certain amount of variety in my basic sound, but I'm okay with that because I like the evenness of the tone I do get and i am still able to vary timbre when I want to by adjusting size/shape of oral resonance chamber.
Personally, i find that discipline about embouchure has really improved my playing and i when I was working to achieve that, I would often practice with a mic cupped but not plugged in order to develop the right habits, including consistency in how i grip the mic. I try very hard not to get sloppy about these things and I have found that it pays off since things that initially took a great deal of concerted effort to learn have now become second nature. So, IMHO, consistency in technique is very important. Especially embouchure.
Last Edited by on May 03, 2011 5:39 AM
I had a few minutes yesterday to play while picking up the house. Worthless, I know. I tried to play without thinking and then stop to see where my tongue was.
I am a "throat bender" on the bottom octave for everything other than the 3 draw 1/2 step bend. I use more of my tongue for that like when I over blow.
On the 4 draw it depends on the harp and what I am playing around it, but my tongue does a lot of the work. Blow bends are like overblows - so lots of tongue movement. Overdraws are like that too.
For kicks I tried just bending without moving my tongue at all. I could do it without much effort, but it was too bluesy. Much like a gut vibrato, I find using my tongue for some bending gives me a bit more finesse when I want it and with how I attack some fast passages, it lets me move faster.
I am convinced that where I get into tone issues with with the depth of the harmonica. The little tongue movement I get when doing standard bending didn't give any audible evidence of sucking tone. I think with the combination of overbends, it provides a more uniformed sound than if I jumped between embochures, or whatever word we are using to describe this.
@HarpNinja: Without question, the toughest draw bend to hit with consistent accuracy "throat" bending is the three draw half step. In fact, I think that's the most difficult draw bend to hit with consistent accuracy no matter what bending technique is used.
"The little tongue movement I get when doing standard bending didn't give any audible evidence of sucking tone. I think with the combination of overbends, it provides a more uniformed sound than if I jumped between embochures, or whatever word we are using to describe this." This makes sense. Since i don't OB, it's not an issue for me and would not have occurred to me.
"For kicks I tried just bending without moving my tongue at all. I could do it without much effort, but it was too bluesy. Much like a gut vibrato, I find using my tongue for some bending gives me a bit more finesse when I want it and with how I attack some fast passages, it lets me move faster." Yep. It produces a fatter or more "bluesy" tone. As far as raw speed is concerned, I think that may also be a function of what the player is used to doing in order to execute a draw bend. Comfort level has a lot to do with speed of execution.
Last Edited by on May 03, 2011 10:19 AM
Damn you guys! It hasn't stopped raining,so I'm sitting here playing 3 draw bends. How do I describe what the hell I'm doing? It's pretty subtle,for throat bends. A constricting in my throat. It's more like you have to rely on hearing the note as feedback for what your throat is doing. And I realized that I do sometimes use the front of my tongue to articulate the bend. That's usually for fast stuff. It seems to bring the bend up quicker. A bit thinner,though. I do so many little subtle things that I don't even think about-rely on muscle memory. How do you teach that to somebody? My hat goes off to you guys that can teach this stuff.
@Tuckster: I'm not a teacher, but enough people tell me I explain things clearly that I'm starting to believe it.
Anyway, look at what I've said about subvocalizations in the post addressed to Micha. Using your ear (or a piano keyboard) to adjust what you get using the subvocalizations to accurate pitch will develop muscle memory. But LISTENING is a big part of it. i developed accuracy (and the associated muscle memory) by playing little tunes with recognizable melodies that require those bends to be on pitch and practicing them. I've got a list of them at home (I'm at my office right now). Because the melodies are familiar, you hear when you are off pitch quite readily and it's easy to adjust in order to be accurate.
"And I realized that I do sometimes use the front of my tongue to articulate the bend. That's usually for fast stuff. It seems to bring the bend up quicker. A bit thinner,though." YES! If i don't throat bend my tone IS "thinner." As far as speed is concerned, you THINK tongue articulation is faster because you are more used to doing it. Since throat bending only requires a slight (or, as you say "pretty subtle") constriction of the "throat" once you've got the hang of it, it is EXTREMELY fast because the muscle action involved is so subtle. You just need to develop those muscles and a habit of consistent deep diaphragmatic air production that goes along with it (which is a good technique to implement even independent of throat bending).
It took a lot of hard effort for me to get comfortable doing it consistently but with a lot of practice and some self discipline it will become automatic after a while--like riding a bicycle. once you learn, it's hard to remember why it seemed hard at first.
I've been practising a little these days and trying to figure out what I'm doing.
I came to a very strange conclusion: Seems I am already capable of bending notes with my throat and that I even use it on some bends! I have never ever realised that... Strange stuff. I do notice the small tonal differences between both techniques.
I do notice this: when doing bend vibratos, when the pitch fluctuations have to be very small, using the tongue seems much more effective. Could be because I don't have enough control with my throat muscles to do that though. For overblows, I notice that I can't do it with just the throat. I need my tongue to control the pitch and get the overblow in tune...
Anyone else experiencing the same thing?
BTW, Diggs: SUPERNICE PLAYING MAN! I'm not such a country fan, love your blues playing. Very cool. Definitely shows that tongue bending has its place.
Last Edited by on May 04, 2011 5:02 AM
