I was wondering if anyone had opinions of the Cruncher vs. the HG35. I'm currently playing a Brown Concert (big) and a Silvertone 1482 (small). The concert can be too much at times, but the Silvertone gets lost. So, mid-sized is where I need to expand into.
I'd like to try an HG50, but that seems silly if I already have a 4/10 amp. Based on old conversations with JR, the Harp Gear is the way to go. However, Sonny makes a good case as well. I guess the bottom-line question is, " How does the HG35 compare to the HG50 in regards to tone/responsiveness?" I'd love to hear that it's about the same only quieter. Anyway, I thought it might be a cool topic, so there you go.
I've only played the HG50...I own the 1210 version. If I was a betting man, I'd say it would sit between your two amps.
The 1210 uses different power tubes than the 4x10 and sounds good at low volumes. I have no experience with the Cruncher, but what I've been told by many is the Sonny amps tend to do one thing really well while some of the other boutique amps have a couple different tones in them.
The HarpGear Double Trouble (owned two) is a great amp, but I think it is a better "small" amp than medium. 2x8 doesn't do it for me.
My modded VHT Special 6 is the loudest 6w amp I've ever heard. Really great and would run you around $300! ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
I've owned and subsequently sold an HG50 1210 - it's a fine amp, but I ultimately found it just a little too clean sounding for me. Very pedal-friendly though if that is your thing, and obviously applies to JR.
I currently have a Cruncher (recently upgraded to Super Cruncher) and love it. Despite my propensity to circulate amps, I would definitely not sell this one. I love the tone of the amp and like that it's very versatile. I've recently been hooking it up with a 59 Bassman for larger gigs, and that's an incredible sound!
So, Cruncher would be my choice.. ---------- Myspace
Last Edited by on Apr 26, 2011 10:37 AM
not an answer to your question but i went with the meteor 1x15 amp in a similar situation as you - had big & small but wanted midsize. could not be happier with it - you may want to add to your shopping list along with the SJ and HG~ all stunnigly excellent amps! ---------- ~Banned in Boston!
Dan - The way it's usually described is that the Sonny Jr amps are more classic (kind of old Fender Tweed style) sounding. The HarpGear amps tend to be more modern (kind of Fender Blackface style).
I'd rule out a HG50 for certain as you have the Concert (one of the best harp amps going). To be honest Dan, I'd be tempted to stick with the two amps you have already. You've got most scenarios covered with them. The Silvertone can always be miked into the PA for a bigger sound. Which then kind of negates the point of a mid sized (35 watt) amp.
As I have stated on many occasions, I love Harpgear amps, but I'm not sure it's the way forward for you. The difference in tangible volume between the two amps (35-50 watts) will only be fairly small anyway. My way forward would be to use the Silvertone for small and mid sized gigs (miked up if needed) and the Concert for bigger mid sized to large gigs.
Just my penny's worth. I'm sure lots of folk will disagree with me.
I second that...good post...I think, if a new amp is a must, something like a Princeton Reverb or maybe the DT would work.
There are SO many factors in the tone/volume equation that it is hard to guess at a right answer, and I am disagree with my original comments. I am assuming the Silvertone as vintage tubes and an old inefficient speaker. If you're looking for slightly more noticeable output, I'd be more inclined to go the route of a Double Trouble, VHT, Pro Jr, etc....under 20w with bigger/multiple/louder speakers.
My solution has been the VHT miked FOH and ran into a monitor. That thing is really really loud for a small amp...I bet it would get louder for harp than a Pro Jr. Princeton Reverb Reissue amps are also loud for their size/feedback threshold. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
I'm somewhat inclined to question the utility of the HG50 1210 for me, although I do love its sound. Would it be any quieter than my concert? I was hoping that perhaps a 2x10 35W amp would break up a little more, perhaps creating a different, yet still crisp sound, while fitting into that mid-volume zone.
Sometimes, I love the way the Walter-esque (Cruncher) amps sound, and I crave it. However, I usually realize that my playing comes across as "muddy" with that much breakup.
I agree with Kingley that I don't necessarily need a new amp, however, there's a part of me that really wants something different. I was trying to think of Meteor, and forgot briefly. Need to go listen to some clips of Scot's stuff.
Thanks Mike. Yeah I agree. The Princeton Reverb Reissue is the best amp I have ever used for harp. It is only 15 watts, but punches way above it's weight and is a very loud amp. I never had problems hearing it above a loud band. I did however mic it up into the PA for bigger gigs. I've also had a Double Trouble and that's another really great HarpGear amp. However for my taste the Princeton has it beat for tone.
If you decide on an HG50 "tgreen' on this forum was selling a 410 model still as of two weeks ago for $999, a great price. I nearly bought it myself just because of the price, but since I'm not yet close to playing big venues, I reluctantly refrained. I've also heard pros and cones on the Mission Chicago, I think it is a one 12" or 15", and 30-35 watts.
I haven't bought an amp in so long (2003), I didn't even know they were re-making the princeton reverb. Now to go plant a money-tree, wait for harvest, and buy them all. . . Seriously, I need to go out and demo some stuff.
The Meteor page says he makes a "mini" version. Is that just a 2x10?
Mike - The DT and the PRR are pretty much the same volume wise. The PRR has a single 10" speaker in a larger cabinet and sounds like it projects better than 2X8" speakers to me. My ears prefer the 10" over the 8" . It's the tone that really sets the Princeton apart for me though.
Dan - The Mini-Meteor is a single 15" speaker I seem to recall.
Last Edited by on Apr 26, 2011 11:14 AM
I agree. The Fenderish-black face tone is my favorite. I liked the tone of the DT, but the 2x8 just never had enough through. The 1210, on the other hand, can quickly fill a room. Amazing amp with huge bottom end!
"The VHT, at only 6w has the same issue as the DT. Great tone, but next to no throw."
That's what micing up an amp is for :-) I'm giving my VHT it's first test tonight with a duo electric set (small set, four or five numbers) at a local singers night.
Last Edited by on Apr 26, 2011 11:19 AM
I bet guitar center (commercial voice screams in ear. . . "Musicians. . .) might have a PRR. I'll have to see if I can find one locally and go into the little padded room to check it out. Good thoughts, guys.
I'm playing in a 2-harp group right now, and Valentino's 2x10 "hohner" vintage amp just decimates my Silvertone. I think my concert can take his Bassman, but I'm not sure. We're trying to avoid starting a cold-war onstage. If we could both match our mid-sized amps roughly and get the drums in check, our show would improve dramatically.
Dan - In my PRR I swapped out V1 for a 12AY7 using a JT30 with Shure CM99A86. No feedback problems with it. I found the stock 12AX7 is a little livelier and could cause the odd howl if you got too close.
@Kingley, I use an AFB pretty much all the time. Although, I'm not opposed to switching preamp tubes. Do you have any sound clips of you and the Princeton?
I was pretty happy with my tone in this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hw3f-PUmEM starting at about 4:00. This was outside, though. Indoors, the Concert can overpower. I have a clip of the Silvertone, but it's currently set to "private" on youtube. If folks want to hear me getting drowned out by Valentino, give me your youtube handles, and I'll unlock it for you.
man, I'm not getting much work done today. . . ha.
I've got a Princeton Reverb Reissue. Great amp and much louder than you would expect for 15 watts.
But for blues gigs i use a Super Reverb Reissue which does not usually need to be mic'd. i don't know if you consider the SRRI to be a large amp or a mid size amp, but it sounds great and is pretty versatile. I put JJ tubes in it, which I think sound fat and warm, and I swapped a couple of 12AX7 preamp tubes for 12AT7s and put a 12DW7 in the PI slot. I like the SRRI a lot. FWIW.
Dan - Here's three clips someone shot at a jam night I was at using the PRR. I should mention that the band in these clips were pretty loud and the guy doing the PA had no real idea of how to mic up a harp.
Kingley, Thanks for posting the clips. I like the way the amp "Saws". It has a nice, raw sound. Not sure if it's the clip, my headphones, or the room, but how's the bass response? I do like a little "thump" to go with my growl. At about $900, this might be the most affordable option.
p.s. the "kid" on guitar is on track to be really good player.
Dan - The bass response is great I find. The PRR is without a doubt the best amp I've ever used tonally speaking small, medium or large. The "kid" (who is about 50 years old! lol) is a rock player. He doesn't like playing blues really. he thinks it's boring!
Bass response on a PRRR is great. The only problem with the amp is that with one 10" speaker, you are not moving a whole lot of air so the amp will lack presence if used next to, say, a guitar amp with two 12" speakers. But it is a terrific sounding amp.
FWIW. i put a set of Fender 14" tilt back legs on mine because i like how the tone opens up when the amp is tilted back. I actually think the bass can sound a little boomy or boxy with the amp flat on the floor, but I tend to turn the bass all the way up and the treble all the way down which may have something to do with it.
I own a Double Trouble. It's a great amp. I've only had to mic it up a couple of times. The 2x8 has never been a problem for me. It cuts quite nicely. Tonally, it's quite good.
Honestly, I've never had a problem being heard when I use it. When I play, I tend to match the amp that I bring with the size of the room and the amplification used by other players. The Double Trouble has served me quite well.
The Double Trouble was louder than the Mini Meat (2x8 & 1x10) that I owned. I had feedback challenges with that amp.
Here is a clip with the DT...bone stock. I was using a SM57 into the Kinder, a leslie pedal, and a delay. http://www.mikefugazzi.com/files/3-004-All%20Your%20Love.mp3
That was as loud as it was going to get. Guitar player had a Deluxe Reverb with an attenuator (meid-back tune. As soon as a full size band hits its peak volume in a medium club or larger, you'll have to mic it to reach the back of the room.
Same with with the VHT last weekend. It was a large room with a large stage. When sound checking just the harp, it sounded really loud and full from stage. As soon as other instruments joined the mix, it was totally eaten up in the mix and needed to be brought up FOH.
IME, you either use a small/medium amp miked or bring a big amp and still try and mic it. What you hear on stage is not what is heard FOH.
The tone of the DT is tops, IMO, but when you have to crank it, it loses some of the dynamics and throw with the 2x8.
I bet at DT through a different cab would sound amazing. I had one with the 1x12, but honestly can't remember if I liked it or not. I think there were more feedback issues with the 1x12.
Dan, I have not played through the HG or Cruncher or the VT, so I can't do a comparison. I have played through the Meteor 15in and it is friggin awesome. I played with a couple of very good guitar players - one with a Retro - King another with a Blues Jr - both mic'ed to the PA. The Meteor was NOT mic'ed and cut through like a Hot knife through butter.
This was an early issue and if you buy new, covered by Fender warranty. It is important to note that those issues were with guitars and often under circumstances unrelated to harmonica...guitar and amp cranked, which is near impossible due to feedback. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
There is another reason for the PRRI rattle and it has never been addressed by Fender, it's sometimes caused by oscillations, it sounds metallic & mechanical, but it is not...it actually comes from the circuit, so try before you buy. As HarpNinja says, this is far less likely to be an issue in an amp used for harp (treble control will be backed off compared to guitar use) and can be cured by a lower mu tube, like 12AY/5751 in V1.
I've had my PRRI for over 2 1/2 years and have played it in a variety of situations, carried it around in the trunk of my car and have played it very LOUD more than a few times. Absolutely no problems with any rattling. In fact, no problems of any kind. Very reliable amp.
I have not done any tube swaps, but I did replace the stock tubes with JJs, I thought the stock tubes sounded harsh. Maybe ok for guitar, but harsh for harp. So i replaced them with JJs in the same configuration. I think the JJs sound warmer and fatter. FWIW.
Btw, I've played through another player's Meteor a couple of times. Very impressive. Wonderfully warm tight and controllable distortion that is responsive to playing technique. and it sounds great with just about any harp friendly mic (not just bullets). Not really my sound and I don't think you can get a clean tone from a Meteor. But if you are into a distorted sound, the Meteor is a very warm sounding and very articulate amp. I've also tried other players' Harp Gear amps and a Sonny Jr. 410 at blues jams. They were ok, but I like my Fenders better. However, if I were into the distortion thing (which I'm not), I'd buy a Meteor in a heartbeat.
Last Edited by on Apr 28, 2011 9:22 AM
all i know is with the meteor 1x15 (not miced - can't imagine ever having to mic it) my bandmates are now asking ME to turn down - yeees take that - turnabout is fair play!
ps - anyone in the boston area is welcome to try mine out.
After our set at the Tuesday 'End of the Line' jam one of the host guitar players just looks at my Cruncher, shakes his head and mutters "Holy s$#t!". And I haven't even 'superized' it yet.
That's an awesome deal on the HG50. I don't know if I can justify 2 amps with 4x10 power. I'd probably never use both, and one would just sit (my concert or the HG). It would be a shame to make a paperweight out of either of those amps.
Thank you all for the great advice. As much as I enjoy when other people play Sonny Jr. amps, the sound just isn't for me and my playing. The PRR sounds great, but almost a little harsh. Plus, I can get one of those anytime. I nice fellow (also named Dan) has an HG35 for sale (he goes by kingbiscuit on youtube, not sure about here). I'm going to take him up on it. Based on everything I've heard from the HG models, this is more "me". At least for now. It's worth a shot.
Dan, The sound I get out of my PRRI is anything but harsh. Very different from the sound Kingley gets. It depends on the mic you use and how you set the controls. It's a very versatile amp. BUT, being a 15 watt amp, it will break up if pushed hard.
It all depends on how you WANT to sound, and for your purposes, you probably won't go wrong with an HG 35 which is definitely a "midsize" amp. I think of my PRRI as my small amp.
@ Bluemoose: "well...that's a lot of tube pulling. (Sure it's healthy? :)"
Pulling a power tube in a fixed bias amp (NEVER do this in a cathode biased amp with a shared cathode resistor - If you don't know what I'm talking about, don't do it at all, 60's Concerts are fixed bias) is easier on the power transformer. It can be an issue for the remaining tube if the tubes run at max voltage anyway, like when using NOS 6V6 in a tolex Princeton/Deluxe, but using a modern 6V6, or one 6L6/5881, appropriately biased is an option here.
Transformer makers may be concerned about the output transformer magnetising because it will only have current passing at one end, rather than at both ends...this is more of a theoretical risk (Hammond, for instance have approved all their 125 series push pull OTs for single ended use, this was also a factory fix for tweed Princetons), but it exists so I have to mention it. Two ways of eliminating this "potential risk" are to alternate which power tube that you remove, or to install a switch that disconnects one end of phase inverter coupling cap - be sure to leave the negative voltage supply to both tube grids intact. This way the unused tube still draws current eliminating therisk of dc core saturation & subsequent magnetisation, it just doesn't receive audio signal.
An amp like the Concert running just one tube, will only make a few Watts, but will still be much louder than a typical Champ style amp.
My preferred route to power reduction on the Concert (or ANY large fixed bias amp) would be a switch to convert to self-split push-pull, but a tolex Fender would really need a 25K middle pot installed for this to work at it's best.
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2011 6:56 AM
5F6H, Once again, thanks for the wealth of knowledge. I do occaisionally switch sockets. My rationale for using 1 power tube is the sound of the amp. I have a lot more control over tone. I can push volume past 6 and bass is much more managable. Piazza was who suggested I run with 1 tube. I do run both channels together and "dialing in" can be a challenge -but an entertaining one. To complete my set-up I use a hybrid mic that William Clarke told me about. I don't use effects, or rarely a brown reverb unit. 5F6H, I'd love to know more about how chaining two channels together works/effects circuits.
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2011 6:16 AM
Chaining 2 channels together in an amp with both channels in phase (Tweed Bassman/Bandmaster/Super/Deluxe etc. plus BF/SF amps without reverb) can fatten the tone, each channel gets a slightly smaller signal, as it is split between the 2 inputs, but they are summed together again at the phase inverter (BF/SF amps) or just before the tone stack in the tweeds. Overall gain is increased slightly, but as each channel may not be so driven, the final sound is often perceived as warmer or fatter.
However the brown amps, without reverb, have the 2 channels out of phase (as do 2 channel BF/SF amps with reverb) meaning the signal on one is to some degree cancelled out by signal on the other, this causes a drop in total gain, this can in turn give a greater sweep on the volume pot. So long as you still get decent dynamics & satisfactory projection, there is no real reason to stop doing it.
A variation on this trick in the BF/SF 2 channel reverb amps is to feed the output from the reverb pan into the Normal #1 input, whilst playing throught the Vibrato #1 input, it also gives you additional tone controls on the reverb.
Running one power tube in a push-pull amp has also been described to me as "the Piazza mod" by certain amp builders. Piazzas concerts normally just had the 2 preamp tubes installed for the normal channel (V1 & V6), pulling V2 rebiases the Normal channel for a raspier gainier tone (also works in BF/SF Fenders), if you don't use the vibrato, pulling the other preamp tubes also affects preamp tube plate voltage...the less tubes installed, the higher the voltage & more cutting the sound. A handy trick to have to hand if your amp needs tweaking to suit a particular room. As long as the amp still works & you don't need any associated effects, pulling preamp tubes actually gives the amp an easier life & won't hurt anything. For my part, I usually like them all installed on a Concert.
The 50's Tweeds & Blues Deluxe/Deville use all the tubes in the signal path, there are no spare tubes to pull in these amps.
Last Edited by on Apr 30, 2011 7:15 AM
Pulling pre-amp tubes. I recall reading that years ago but didn't know how I could use it with the concert. I now anticipate fun. My interpretation is that I can leave 2 but I don't know which. I don't use the vibrato. Can you explain V1 V6? Much thanks.
Sorry, yes, V1 is farthest Right (looking at the back of the amp), nearest the Normal Channel inputs at the end of the chassis. V6 is next to the power tubes. So V1 & V6 are the 2 preamp tubes that are farthest apart.
Techs count them in order from input through the circuit, following the audio path to output, so your power tubes would be V7, V8. A bit counter-intuative as Westerners count from L to R & Fender built their amps from R to L
Great discussion. Thanks to all who responded. The search is over (for now) as I've just received a HG35 from a fellow list member (another Dan, go figure). It sounds pretty cool in my living room, and it's LOUD. I'm going to check it out with my effects and in a band setting soon. Maybe I'll get some video to share (no promises).
If anyone's interested, here's a short clip of my HG-35 using crystal microphones. It's part of a much-longer video I've been working on to compare all of my amps and mic's. The whole thing's bordering on "academic" but this little clip gives an indication of what the HG-35 sounds like. It's an unlisted video, so you can only see it if you use the link below.
