Long shot here...please remember that I am not after the typical "Chicago" blues tone and prefer something similar to how Jason Ricci balances clean vs dirty. I need a sound that will let me use effects but get me some grit when I cup firmly and dig in...just like the HG50.
I am realizing the sound of my HG50 is still the best sound I can get with my gear. I absolutely love the amp, but would like the ability to get a similar sound in a smaller amp for smaller gigs or gigs where I can mic a small amp.
The Double Trouble isn't going to do it as I don't want to use any number of 8" speakers, but it was close...and honestly, I felt it wasn't louder than my VHT.
I like the VHT Special 6 and am thinking of modding it to be a better "harp" amp. However, my lack of background in amps limits my efforts in knowing what to do.
I think what I want is the following...
The biggest bottom end a 5w 1x10 amp can offer.
A tone control better suited for the voice of the harmonica.
Anything that will maximize the amp's volume.
Anything that will give it similar tonal characteristics to my HG50 - which has bite and grit, but isn't mushy or overly distorted...maybe with one 6v6 it has enough of that already. I do notice that the HG50 can dial in excellent cut/presence if need be where as the VHT tone control isn't as harmonica friendly.
Thoughts??? Right now it as a Ramrod speaker, Tung Sol RI 12ax7 and JJ 6V6.
What got me on this kick is my friend who plays guitar and got a Victoria Champ with 1x12 and 35w OT. It is absolutely stellar. I am spoiled as the HG50 is an amazing amp and I want a dedicated "harp" amp for my small amp too - like how the Victoria is perfect with his guitar.
Other options include getting a HG Champ, but I want at least a 1x10 if not 1x12. No 8" speakers!
jimr has the following mods listed...Good place for me to start?
Is simply stating I want a small amp with the full sound of a large amp a simpler way of explaining this? I understand that I can only get so far and then hope using a monitor will take me the rest of the way there. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Mike, I am just throwing this out there and don't kill me for it... Have you looked into any solid state amps? Much lighter, less maintenance, and plenty adjustable.
A little bit. I mean, I can totally live without changing anything, it is just the HG50 tends to ramp up the stage volume with my band as it is much larger than the guitar player's amp - which is a 30w Mesa Boogie that he keeps at low volumes and always mics.
I always have full control over my monitor setup, so using a smaller amp wouldn't be a big deal and in some ways would benefit everyone else. I just want to replicate as much of a mini-HG50 as reasonably possible.
I am at the point now where I don't even need an amp for my stage volume as I could just use a monitor. I had been going straight into the PA, but logistically, micing a small amp would be easier. It also gives me more room on stage and in my car when I bring a full PA.
The HG50 is totally the ideal sonically, but there are times where it is overkill. It sounds great at low volumes and if I had to use it 100% of the time that wouldn't be a bad thing at all, but I have the VHT and it is fun to tinker (and will keep me from buying another amp). I also know that with the clubs we play, etc, the FOH sound is important and using a smaller amp makes it much easier to control.
So I am not panicking or anything as I can use the HG50 pretty much anytime I want, but I have noticed that in some rooms (that pay well and are fun to play but sound sucks) that the HG50 at needed stage volume is louder than a sound person would want it and I respect that. That same volume through a monitor aimed at me is acceptable.
In a word...boxy...I want to eliminate the boxy sound (high-mids?). I think just voicing this better for harp would be enough to make it sound awesome FOH miked. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Mike-perhaps a solution I use for my Epi would be an option for you as well, in lieu of or addition to mods. I run my combo into a 12" cabinet(and bypass the 8" in the combo)-a lot more bottom end from that 12. I would imagine that going from a 10 to a 12 would have similar advantages for you. I also feed a little bit into the PA at times. Here's a vid from one of my gigs the other night(HarveyHarp sitting on on vocal mic, me on my rig, not thru the PA at all, which DOES sound fuller than on this vid with the amp thru the 12 alone.
Circuit-wise the VHT and your HG50 have more in common that is perhaps immediately apparent...of course they run different output stages/topology/voltages...but still quite similar overall.
You have to decide whether to go Jim's tried & tested mod route, or to make it more HG50 like...not the same thing.
R5 leave stock R9 leave at 100K R10/R12 - take an ohmmeter and measure the resistance from the middle tab of the treble pot of the HG50 (set as you play it) to the RH tab for R10, and then middle tab to LH tab for R12.
R13 measure middle tab of HG50 bass pot to LH tab of bass pot for value.
R15 measure middle tab of HG50 middle pot to LH tab of middle pot for value.
Parts involved might run to $30, plus your time...no guarantees that it'll get you exactly what you want, but it's the answer to the question that you ask.
Last Edited by on Apr 13, 2011 8:45 AM
Remove C13 then add a 33K resistor from the hot side of R17 to orange speaker tap wire (16ohms, or 22K if using an 8ohm output). If the amp howls on turn on, reverse blue & red leads going to main B+ and power tube pin 3.
Jim also reviewed the Alnicomagnet kit for the SP6 and seemed to like it, even better than his own mods. Not sure if this will get you to the HG50 sound or not, but sounds promising. Alnicomagnet saved my Champion 600.
It's funny to read this in contrast to Adam's post about his Kay through the PA. He's looking for a small amp sound with high volume and you're looking for large amp sound at lower volume. Different strokes, I guess!
It all keeps it interesting and that's the most fun of all.
Here's where i differ from alot of folk, in that unless you are after a specific dB (volume level) out of the speaker, there isn't really such thing as a "big amp", or a "little amp" sound. Little amps are easier to overdrive, but so long as you keep to comparable distortion levels, the differences are very hard to identify. You can hear things like cathode bias vs. fixed bias sometimes, sometimes you'll spot a push-pull amp due to high idle current & subsequent compressed sounds (harder to achieve with a SE amp) otherwise you need to be very familiar with the player in question & their gear to have half a chance of correctly identifying big & little amps.
Many times in the studio, we have dropped on alternate solos using different amps, at the time the differences seem obvious, but come in to mix the next day and you need to check notes! Or you'll hear guys say, my (insert big amp of choice) sounds like a Champ"...ergo, if a big amp can sound like a little amp & vice versa, then there is no big/small sound.
Last Edited by on Apr 13, 2011 12:49 PM
You're speaking specifically to hearing them recorded or through a PA, right?
Meaning this doesn't mean when listening to them side by side. But if you are talking on a recording or only through FOH or on Youtube, etc, I tend to concur. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Yes Harpninja, I'm talking purely about the sound irrespective of volume. Guys often get a sound that they are comfortable with & when you try and record them, they tend to try and recreate that sound with whatever is put in front of them, whether that's backing off a small amp for a cleaner sound, or trying to get a large amp to distort at lower volume.
Talked to my tech friend and I think I can get the amp tweaked tomorrow. He had the parts and was familiar with the amp.
The only con is I have the original version that had a hard time fitting larger tubes. I will see what I can do about the 5881 as I believe I have a couple at home. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
you need to be very familiar with the player in question & their gear to have half a chance of correctly identifying big & little amps...
This is very true. A friend of mine that I used to jam with recorded every single jam that we attended for almost two years. About a year ago, he gave me a bunch of the recordings.
I started listening to them. I couldn't tell what amp I was using. The only amp with a completely recognizable sound to me was a Meteor Mini Meat. (It was distorted almost like a Champ, but at a higher volume.)
During this time frame, I owned a Fender Pro Junior, a tweed Champ clone, a Meteor Mini Meat, a reissue 59 Bassman LTD and a Harpgear Double Trouble. During this time, I had also used a Harpgear 30, a 1963 Fender Vibroverb reissue, a 1964 Fender Vibroclone, a blackface Vibrolux Reverb, a blackface Bandmaster and a couple of other amps including all of Greg Heumann's amps, most of RJ Mischo's amps and a couple of Mark Hummel's amps.
After all of this, I realized that I needed to learn to like my existing sound or work on it until I liked it. Chasing a specific sound by buying and selling microphones and amplifiers becomes very expensive, very quickly.
If I was content with the sound that I was hearing after listening to a bunch of performances and not being able to tell what equipment I was using without supporting video, then I needed to stop chasing gear. It didn't matter.
I ended up settling on three amps that work well. They sound good and if they don't sound good, it's not the amp.
Now, I can focus on listening to music and learning new tunes.
@Joe_L: I know it's not his amp. I haven't seen him play live, but I've seen videos on Youtube and the video of Aki Kumar interviewing him (were he plays a bit). He seems to have tone for days acoustic, so I imagine he could probably get a good sound out of any amp! But there was a bunch of talk about the mods done to the VHT he was playing, and was wondering if anyone knew what was done? ----------
@HarpNinja: When you bring your amp to your tech tomorrow, are you going to have him mod it they way 5F6H suggests? I am really interested in the outcome and what values you come up with for R10, R12, R13, R15 and if you add or remove anything else! Best of luck!
That Aki Kumar is a beautiful human being and a fabulous player. Bruce Collins did the mods on that amp. Rick Davis owns it and is looking to sell it. You might want to contact him or Bruce.
"you need to be very familiar with the player in question & their gear to have half a chance of correctly identifying big & little amps..."
"I couldn't tell what amp I was using"
The bottom line IMHO is we have a sound in our heads we like, and dial in different amps to achieve that sound. Some amps will not get near that sound so need modding/selling. Some players use effects to get that sound.
Each player has a sound. A way of phrasing,favorite licks, a certain attack or decay of a note. Their own tone. This is what differentiates us. Not the amps we use.
Let Jason Ricci/Kim Wilson, or any recognisable player play through a rig without changing any settings. They will not sound the same. Each one would be recognisable and sound different. ---------- The Pentatonics Myspace Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
After many years experience with trying to play amped I've learned a couple of things...
1.) The gear quest is complicated by the fact we are using a harp, mic, and GUITAR amp. IMO, discussion of any GUITAR amp being made better for harmonica should not require people stating over and over that it is all in the player. While correct to an extent and often makes a person sound like a grumpy old man, it provides no support in a thread such as this. Also, while a good player can sound good through many things, they may not sound ideal. Interesting that so many of those top end guys have specific gear they always try to use. There is a huge guitar thread on this at thegearpage.net with numerous examples of great players playing great things but having relatively bad tone as the guitar and/or amp sucks (see Eric Johnson through some SS Fender thing).
This is further complicated by what is often the heart of this matter, at least for me, of balancing stage volume with feedback threshold withing a full band. Playing in your bedroom is different that playing jams. Playing with a gigging band(s) is different that playing in a jam. Playing a small stage is different than a large. Playing for 20 people is different than 200.
2.) Mic choice. Some mics are so narrow or obvious with their tone that they dominate the amped sound. In general, matching a mic to an amp is yet another variable to consider even if it is just a matter of volume before feedback.
3.) There simply aren't the resources, especially economically, for harmonica gear that there are for guitar. We almost always end up using things NOT designed for harmonica at all with harmonica. Kudos to those thinking outside the box and putting the time and money into figuring this stuff out.
It is a lot harder to when you aren't after a typical blues tone.
4.) There comes a time where good is good enough, but there should be no shame in wanting a sound to inspire you when you play...although expensive, this quest of sorts also helps you find your sound.
5.) Playing well acoustically does not promise someone will sound good amped. It is two different skill sets.
6.) A good rig is a good rig - meaning if it has been optimized for harmonica and still sound like crap to you, it isn't the amp. It could be the whole signal chain, but it isn't the amp. Boutique harp amps and mics are typically good gear. Anything, like the VHT, that isn't set up for harmonica is up for debate, IMO.
7.) When playing with a full band, the options that maximize the FOH sound are often ignored with harmonica players. Adam Gussow has hit on this at length. This is also something I see hit on all the time on non-harp boards. People worry so much about what they hear of themselves on stage and don't give a crap about what the audience hears. The $5,000 guitar or harp rig and then the person won't even sound check their vocal mic, etc.
I'm quite intrigued by the VHT Special 6. From what I've heard in sound clips, it certainly sounds like a great little amp for the price. How does it compare for example to a 5F1 Champ tonewise?
I haven't played it next to a Champ. Originally, I was going to get a HarpGear Rockbottom as it had a 10" speaker and then the VHT came out and people said it sounded a lot like a BF Champ, which is something I've had before and liked.
When word of a HG50 for sale came up, I was ok ditching the Champ (actually two) to fund the purchase - also sold my second HG DT - to get it. No regrets as the HG50 is steller and, if you dig up past posts, I felt the HG50 could sound like the DT at DT volumes.
This was at a time where I had no solid monitoring, PA, or anything else. I almost always got all my FOH volume from stage and for sure my stage volume.
It was not the ideal and now that I have way better PA gear and gigs, being professional about stage volume and setup is an important piece of the puzzle for my current project.
Enough rambling, so here is some audio to illustrate where I am coming from.
http://www.mikefugazzi.com/fr_liveaudio
I apologize for not having more, but I have enough time, resources, and know how to easily record all my gigs. In fact, I've been doing so with one group but will not be sharing it yet. It took a long time to figure out an ok to good set up!
The Groove Stew clips suffer from poor recording set-up but are with the VHT...I think it is the Ramrod speaker. Small room with awful sound and acoustics...holds maybe 100 people and was one of our first gigs...I had a Zoom recorder aimed at a main and didn't even have a mixer yet.
The Mark Cameron clips are the next night in a large room with a full pro PA, but awful sound man. Same recorder set up next to the mixing board.
The oldest clips are a stock DT and Boss DM2. Room similar to the Groove Stew clips, but packed to capacity and some amp through the mains.
IMO, there is a huge difference in the tone of those two amps. The stock DT, which wasn't really louder than the VHT has way too much speaker breakup for my taste. The VHT, even with 1/3 the wattage sounds better.
I use a modded DT - as in different ceramic speakers on the my site player on the bottom of the page - Hungry Ghosts and North Wind. LOVE LOVE LOVE that sound. The other studio tracks are with a Champ. I can hear a clear difference, more in the EQ than anything. I liked those solos enough to keep them even though I didn't have the amp set up for a tone I was in love with.
So, for me, a kinda clean BF Fender kinda sound is what I like best. The HG50 can do that depending on how I cup it and sound huge. When I dig in, it has just the right amount of crunch. The VHT is similar in that it starts a little cleaner and gets dirty but not too dirty.
In talking this through, I realize that it isn't necessarily the tone of the VHT that needs to be tweaked for me, but rather how it is eq'ed relative to being used for harp. The tone control is not optimal for harp and having fixed resistors makes it hard to dial in a different feel.
All-in-all, though, a mildly scooped tone that is almost too dark is the ideal. Any excuses for sucking then fall on me. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Thanks for all the info Mike. I like the BF Fender sound a lot too. I think I'm going to have to hunt down one of these VHT amps in my local music shops and test one out. At the price point they certainly seem to be great value.
The newer ones might run a bit more but have room for larger power tubes. Personally, I'd check out the Classic 6 which is pretty much the same with with a 1x12. I have no clue how it sounds for harp, and I am sure it would need a different speaker, but it looks sweet, lol.
I will, or have the amp tech, compare the volume to a stock Pro Jr before picking it up.
I was wondering which Special 6 you had since they make a few different models. Open or closed back, 10 or 12 speaker?
I seem to be in a amp frying mode. My Champ that I bought 2 weeks ago in the pawn shop for $70 just let go. Then today my Blackheart little giant started to fry while home on lunch. I looked into the back and the 6BQ5 had a fireworks show going on inside. Luckily that was just the old tube giving up.
I have the 1x10 open back combo. The "Classic" is the 1x12 American made version. There is also the head and cab.
I thought about getting the head, but the measurements were so close to the combo, I figured it would be just as easy to use the combo with a bigger cab.
I haven't done that live, just at home.
I really hope I can get it back tonight and record it tomorrow. The next week is a huge room where the HG50 was miked and I am not sure which amp I will take. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
