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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
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kudzurunner
2439 posts
Apr 14, 2011
8:22 AM
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@Steveleigh: I'm not only well aware of Alex, but he's precisely who I had in mind when I wrote "present-day phenoms excluded." That's why I'm bringing him to Hill Country Harmonica.
Poor reading comprehension. But great trollism, though! Damn, you're good.
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RT123
166 posts
Apr 14, 2011
9:40 AM
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could be "trollism" or he could have just made an honest mistake. i actually had to read it twice to be sure i had it right.
super sensative................
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12gagedan
11 posts
Apr 14, 2011
9:40 AM
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The discussion of keys and positions got my dander up, a bit. I will pontificate only briefly on my belief that a certain amount of immersion is required to really “get” playing traditional blues harp. Note my use of the word “traditional”
*First video in the discussion: “She’s Nineteen Years Old”
I want to focus on the youtube-only, longer version, because the sound quality is much better, and I think there’s less pitch distortion. I’m at work, so I can’t confirm keys. I think you guys are right that the song is in A. Sometimes recordings don’t sound “true” to the pitch of the harp in one’s hand. Playing along can be challenging. I’m basing my comments on my long study of blues harmonica, and my ability to play first, second, third position blues licks. I also used to make it a point to switch harp keys frequently during jam sessions, to better learn how to use positions.
The tune starts out in First position.
-At about 8:20 on the longer, second video, he goes to second position
-At 9:48 I think he switches back to first position
-10:03 switch back to second position
-10:49 one lick in first position. You can hear a slight bit of hesitation (10:52 into 10:53) when he switches back to 2nd. Switching multiple times, quickly during a song can make you miss just a little bit, as you’re mentally and physically switching harps/positions)
-It’s a first position lick at 11:03, just before the stop, then the ending continues in first position.
I’m not 100% sure on the later 1st position licks. I will review at home to confirm. I have about a 5% sneaking doubt, based on the end of the “Mojo” clip, where he sneaks in some high notes, that he may be hitting a Magic Dick-like lick. Hold off blasting me until I can get a harp in hand.
*Second video in the discussion: Titled “Hoochie Coochie Man”
Oscher is playing in first position, pretty much exactly like Little Walter did on the original recording. He omits my favorite lick in the tune, however 3B, 2B, 1B (Maybe it’s 4B,3B, 1B, but whatever it is it’s three descending pitch blow notes. I have no harp at hand . . . sorry)
Later in this video, at about 2:31, they cut to Muddy playing “She’s Nineteen Years Old”. It’s the same version, or at least a very similar version to the discussion above. At this point, the harmonica is playing in second position, just about to throw in a first position lick. Referring back to the above summary, we’re coming into that track at about 11:00 (give or take).
*Third video in the discussion: Oscher plays third position chromatic (awesome vid, by the way)
*Fourth video in the discussion "Mojo": Second position all the way
Just a point of note about Muddy; he liked things to be played a certain way. Walter broke the ground on those early records, and most guys that followed were expected to play within the harmonica “style” that exemplified that “Muddy Waters Sound” The harmonica spot in Muddy’s band was expected to play a certain way. As a young guy in these clips, I think Paul did a great job of delivering what was expected. These clips, however, couldn’t provide much insight into his creativity, as his creativity was stifled as a matter of course.
Last video: Kim’s playing First position. Another great example of this tune done in first position is the version from the Red Devil’s “King King” album.
Final point: Playing first position harp well does not require anything other than a decent ($15 and up) harmonica and PRACTICE. Setting up, gapping, etc. can’t hurt, but it’s not the secret.
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Barry C.
233 posts
Apr 14, 2011
10:02 AM
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it's good that KW shaved his head - wait is that the discussion? LOL
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~Banned in Boston!
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Stevelegh
184 posts
Apr 14, 2011
10:40 AM
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Adam, I wasn't trolling, apologies if you missed the joke (I thought the 'tee hee') was enough.
I was referring to a thread Alex made with the Youtube vid 'Hey Justine' on it. Someone mentioned he was only 18 and had only been playing two years. Alex replied with a quip that he's only been playing for 'two years' for some years now.
Sorry you missed the pun, and please be assured I had no intention of trolling, especially not on a thread I started where I asked honest questions and am grateful I got great replies and contributed to MBH with what I think is a great thread.
Regards
Steve
Last Edited by on Apr 14, 2011 10:42 AM
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kudzurunner
2440 posts
Apr 14, 2011
11:21 AM
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@12gage: You wrote: "Just a point of note about Muddy; he liked things to be played a certain way. Walter broke the ground on those early records, and most guys that followed were expected to play within the harmonica “style” that exemplified that “Muddy Waters Sound” The harmonica spot in Muddy’s band was expected to play a certain way. As a young guy in these clips, I think Paul did a great job of delivering what was expected. These clips, however, couldn’t provide much insight into his creativity, as his creativity was stifled as a matter of course."
That's an incredibly good point and needed to be made. It's true, of course, that Cotton managed to sound nothing like Walter, even under such circumstances--and even when warbling, which Walter did a lot of. But still: there most certainly WAS pressure on Oscher to sublimate his individuality, and that would have been especially true in the unprecedented situation in which he found himself: the first white guy in the Muddy harp chair. He had to prove that he was completely, unassailably idiomatic. Neither he nor Muddy could afford to have anybody, in the band or in the audience, say, "You play like a white boy." Period. He was required, in every way, to deliver a certain kind of sound--and would have been highly praised for it. Individuality played little role in that sound.
This has been my controversial claim for a long time: that many, but not all, white blues musicians are so heavily invested in producing an audible simulacrum of acceptable blackness that they've restricted themselves to fairly narrow aesthetic grooves. This wasn't particularly true of Musselwhite, Butterfield, Magic Dick, Duane Allman, or Eric Clapton: all five guys in that 60s generation of blues players were actually very adventurous; all of them went beyond the blues, and drew from sources beyond the blues (jazz, especially Coltrane, and Eastern music) in the act of making the blues their own.
But the generation of white players that followed them, a generation that produced many of the players still on the scene, retrenched, in a sense. I'm not sure why this was. Rod Piazza's early band--the one in which he DIDN'T wear dark shades--was actually pretty contemporary. I saw some film of that band once; I think it was an episode of PLAYBOY AFTER DARK. But then the shades and suits went on--after the Blues Brothers movie, I suspect--and backward-looking attitudes were cultivated.
That backward-looking attitude has changed, to some extent, in a younger generation of players, and in players like Madcat Ruth, Sugar Blue, Jason Ricci, Carlos Del Junco, and myself. I saw Madcat here in Oxford two nights ago with Chris Brubeck's Triple Play, and we got a chance to hang out. Madcat's approach was, like my approach, strongly inflected by getting an amazing gig early on--in his case, three years touring with Dave Brubeck--and in discovering that Sonny Terry licks alone wouldn't take him there. I doubt that there's any blues harp player in the world who can navigate 5/4, 7/4 and 9/4 time signatures the way Madcat does.
Anyway, I have no desire to re-litigate the points I'm making here. Lots of people here disagree with me; we know that, I know that. That's why I've just made a deal with the devil and started a new website where dark shades and sharkskin suits are de rigeur:
http://www.retrobluesharmonica.com
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Tuckster
828 posts
Apr 14, 2011
11:40 AM
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I don't know if it was the O.P's intent,but this thread is pretty educational. Can you tell its two different harp players on the first two vids of 19 Y.O.? Listening to a lot of Cotton certainly helps. That 2nd 19 Y.O is so distinctively Cotton.That 1st vid is an almost outright copy of the 2nds. Except he avoids the distinctive Cotton licks. He also doesn't have Cotton's "muffled power". I think it's because he has a super tight cup,but to be honest, I've never quite figured out how he does it. On a compilation "The Great Bluesman"(?) on a cut "West Helena"(?) Cotton towards the end of the song obliterates the 2 draw and plays the last few bars flat. Immense lung power.
As far as the 1st & 2nd pos. switching,that opening lick was a dead giveaway. It's a classic 1st pos. lick.If you dabble in 1st at all,this should be in your arsenal. Also,there was no way he was doing those blowbends on a D. I grabbed my A & D,and it layed out perfectly. If you couldn't hear what I'm talking about,then you have a hole in your education you need to fill. This is not a bad thing. To know you have a weakness is the first step in overcoming it. I welcome that sort of insight--weaknesses you weren't aware of until someone points them out to you.
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harpdude61
824 posts
Apr 14, 2011
11:54 AM
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"The discussion of keys and positions got my dander up, a bit. I will pontificate only briefly on my belief that a certain amount of immersion is required to really “get” playing traditional blues harp. Note my use of the word “traditional” "
12gagedan....Some of us may not have your knowledge and we may be unsure....but personally I think this a fantastic thread...especially if us players that still have stuff to learn, actually learn something...I know I will....I am immersed in this thread.
Last Edited by on Apr 14, 2011 11:59 AM
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RT123
168 posts
Apr 14, 2011
11:59 AM
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@12gagedan - "Final point: Playing first position harp well does not require anything other than a decent ($15 and up) harmonica and PRACTICE. Setting up, gapping, etc. can’t hurt, but it’s not the secret."
Are you the Dan that said at the end of one of his instructional videos "Practice, Practice Your Ass Off"?
It is simple to say, but they way you said it really hits home. If you get lazy, you are never going to get better. Just something I remembered seeing and it sticks with me.
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5F6H
629 posts
Apr 14, 2011
12:02 PM
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Tuckster, I hate to say this, but all 3 audio recordings of Muddy singing 19 YO in this thread are all the same - Red Lighting LP0055 recorded Chicago Apr/May 1970, for Cockliss's Chicago Blues film...all Paul Oscher.
There does not appear to be a recording of Muddy singing 19YO accompanied by James Cotton.
Last Edited by on Apr 14, 2011 12:12 PM
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harpdude61
825 posts
Apr 14, 2011
12:06 PM
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Tuckster..I knew I had weakness. That is why I spent the last two years learning to play chromatically in 4 positions using overblows and overdraws on all 10 holes.
My ear still needs more training and I cannot side tongue block to save my ass. I guess players take their weaknesses in different order.
Weakness is not a good word. How about unaware or not had the chance to practice or study.
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Tuckster
829 posts
Apr 14, 2011
12:26 PM
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Well,I tried to word that so no one would feel insulted.Not my intent whatsoever. Weakness may be a poor word choice,but really it is a weakness. It's something you need to work on. It's something you're weak in. Not you personally, but all of us. I have weaknesses that I'm aware of and work to improve. And then there are weaknesses I'm not aware of until someone points them out to me. Sort of an a-ha moment. "Damn,I didn't ever see that". How can I work on a weakness if I don't know I have it? Those kind of revelations step up my game. Relish the fact you've learned something of which you didn't know before.
5F6H- I'll take you're word for it,but I would have lost the farm betting that 2nd 19 was Cotton. That's the best Cotton imitation I've ever heard. Had me fooled.
"There does not appear to be a recording of Muddy singing 19YO accompanied by James Cotton."
I don't have the album or liner notes handy,but I remember a version that was probably live from Newport that I swear is Cotton. If it's Paul,he's got Cotton down cold.
Last Edited by on Apr 14, 2011 12:34 PM
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5F6H
630 posts
Apr 14, 2011
12:45 PM
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I've just been pouring over Wright & Rothwell's Muddy Waters Discography and I can't see a Muddy/Cotton version...doesn't mean there isn't one...I just can't find it if there is.
There is a version of 19YO on Live at Mr Kelly's, on which Cotton guests, but that track is not atttributed to Cotton, it's ...erm, well no prizes for guessing...that man Oscher again! ;-)
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Tuckster
830 posts
Apr 14, 2011
1:46 PM
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It was bugging me,so I dug out the album. Vanguard's "The Great Bluesmen". It sounds like Cotton to me. The liner notes say George Smith-harmonica. Ha Ha Ha Ha. It's a good day- I learned something new.
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7LimitJI
475 posts
Apr 14, 2011
3:30 PM
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"Anyway, I have no desire to re-litigate the points I'm making here. Lots of people here disagree with me; we know that, I know that. That's why I've just made a deal with the devil and started a new website where dark shades and sharkskin suits are de rigeur:"
Welcome to the dark side young bluesman.
Well it is when you wear the shades indoors!!
As far as "backward-looking attitudes were cultivated."
is concerned, you should have a look at the folk scene.
I think of myself as "keeping the blues alive" and honour the greats by attempting to play like them.
Its been around a wee while and I hope I can keep it going a bit longer.
Mind you. I copy Rod Piazza, who copied George Smith, who copied Larry Adler who copied god only knows!!
I think everyone is at it.You have to learn to walk before you can run.
Hey HarpDude
"My ear still needs more training and I cannot side tongue block to save my ass. I guess players take their weaknesses in different order."
Keep practising. we'll have you converted to the dark side in no time ;O)
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The Pentatonics Myspace
Youtube
"Why don't you leave some holes when you play, and maybe some music will fall out".
"It's music,not just complicated noise".
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Stevelegh
187 posts
Apr 15, 2011
5:16 AM
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@Tuckster: 'I don't know if it was the O.P's intent,but this thread is pretty educational.'
Well, yes and no. I was just trying to find out who the player was, but got far more than I intended.
Glad to have started what's turned out to be such a productive thread.
Thanks
Steve
Last Edited by on Apr 15, 2011 5:17 AM
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