RT123 I think Adam's approach (& micing an amp you like via a bigger, maybe more modern/maybe not, amp) is a nice blend of technologies. Tubes fell out of favour with manufacturers largely because solid state undercuts them massively in terms of cost, SS amps are also much lighter...a factor regarding PAs & bass/keyboard amps etc. But as far as tone alone goes tubes are largely still king. The technology maybe old, but guys are still innovating new approaches & application specific approaches.
In short, tone & timelines are not intrinsicly linked.
Universal where Muddy & Little Walter were first recorded for Chess/Aristocrat was a cutting edge studio in it's day...some of their recordings could have been cut yesterday the production was so good, they weren't recorded on shitty equipment, by and large, quality did vary...especially when Leonard started trying to record in house, but even by mid '60 the Chess in-house sound was damn good production-wise...even by today's standards.
@RT123: I did read your posts, and I find the discussion interesting, and I did not take it personally or had any intention of offending you. I don’t post often, perhaps because I guess I stink at expressing myself..LOL. Apologies! I was responding to this: “They had shitty equipment because of technology at the time was just not advanced. And any of the top end equipment they couldnt afford. If they could afford it and used it for recordings, it was recorded with more shitty equipment and the sound degraded even more.” I appreciate the irony of someone trying to make their equipment sound like old stuff, but I think the statement above is a little iffy overall. I tried to explain why, and didn’t mean to offend. I too am I fan of all kinds of sounds, and like Adam’s set up. Thanks.
maybe i should have said it differently. in my opinion there equipment was shitty compared to todays equipment. And then that is open to discussion becase 5F6H has a different opinion than i do.
No need to apologize bro!
I have some strong opinions and they are much clearer in my mind than they are when i type them out. it ll makes sense to me though!
Adam, this is a very interesting idea. I did once think about trying that, but I dismissed it as impractical. Obviously it's not.
I did recently buy a Peavey KB1 keyboard amp, which I have been using as a PA, and also have planned to use it to augment my Valve Jr.'s sound in a way similar to what Adam's doing. It's not a huge speaker but it is bigger than the Valve Jr.'s, so it should sound interesting. I'm doing this tomorrow night for a gig and I will report on how it goes.
One crucial link in the whole chain of technologies is the mic that I'm dangling in front of the amp. It's far and away the best that I've come across.
Have you tried holding it direct to the harp or only to mic the PA? I am always looking for new mics but I would just be using it direct to a single amp. I have limited knowledge of mics, but I love to try new ones.
Adam, One thing you would lose with this is the separation you were getting with two amps. Essentially this is giving you one amp unless they were both played at a balanced volume.
And a good sound guy, if you trust them, could mic both amps and that sound would be going out across the PA
You might actually like this because you are now hearing what the audience hears when you are mic's properly
Great thread! When I recently played with my LOUD band, I tried this same approach with my standard rig: (JT30/Pedal board/69 Champ modded with a line out). I set the amp on top of a little 250 watt, 4 channel PA head and set that on a PA cab with a 12" driver and horn. I miced the Champ's Weber Sig 8 speaker with an SM57 and ran it into channel 1. Just as our host states, the bass response was amazing and the tone out of the PA speaker was the same, smooth crunch of the Champ, just much louder and much deeper. Just for kicks, I ran another 1/4" from the line out of the Champ into channel 2 of the PA head. Pretty darn amazing sound but it was really easy to get carried away with it as the tone out of channel 2 became "fizzy" pretty quickly. Finding the sweet spot between the 2 PA channels was easy...and LOUD! Between the 2, I much prefer the organic sound the of Weber speaker amped thru the PA. I have found that the Champ lined out to my Blues Jr is also a very effective combination using the BJ as basically a 15 watt tube PA. The amp/PA rig has many more control options and of course, has much more volume. Schlepping 2 extra pieces of gear is not a biggie and watching the faces of my axeslingers if and when I have to step on them (for a change) is absolutley priceless!
I like having options. But I find if you use a line-out, you miss the impact the speaker has on the overall sound, and some folks spend lots of money/time/effort on different speakers chasing that speaker-specific element of the total sound.
My ‘most- gritty-Chicago-blues’ amp is an ancient Old Smokey. Its total ‘controls’ are a ¼” input jack and a ¼” output jack. I guess the latter is close to a line-out, but I use it as an external speaker drive into a very old 6” speaker in a homemade cab. Not very loud, but a great sound – and sounds best with a relatively clean mic – I use a 520DX (usually universally condemned, but I find very useful in this unique configuration). Works OK for busking too if the environment isn’t too loud.
When more volume is required, I mic that cab (SM57 in a short mic stand) into a Soundcraft Gigrac600 PA – 8ch, 600W, reverb options, relatively small and packed with a strap to go over your shoulder. I use a keyboard stand to locate it at an appropriate height to run the sound while I’m playing. I have a number of speaker options I can run that PA into – one 12” + horn PA speaker (a ‘three box’ rig) for a rig like Adam’s or two PA speakers for more grunt. I can also run a clean mic (a homebuilt) via my Digitech RP350 (Richard Hunter patches) straight into that PA, which gives me lots of effects and lots of ‘loud’ with only three boxes (pedal, PA and one PA speaker).
The full ‘big gig rig’ adds 2 x bass 8” quadboxes (they really work well for harp) to the 2 x PA speakers. And I’ve got an ancient Boss KM60 mixer I plug into one stereo channel on the Gigrac to give me 13 channels – sometimes needed when a 6-player harp ensemble plays with 15+ ukulele players at an outdoor gig. I add a 200W 12” + horn powered speaker for foldback for that one (this powered speaker also works well with the RP350 – a ‘two box’ rig). Using the small PA to add ‘grunt’ to the Old Smokey Cab works well and the 8 channels means I can run a separate channel for a clean mic - for the RP350 (handheld) or put it in a mic stand for the bass or chord harmonicas. The Gigrac is flexible enough to provide a number of options for just me, or provide a reasonable sound system for a fairly large group when Harpers Bizarre plays with the Ukulele Republic of Canberra (UROC) – noting that their bass guitar and any amped ukes provide their own amps.
The biggest PITA is the ancillary stuff that has to be bumped in and out. Mics, cables (mics – 2pin hot, 3pin hot, XLR to XLR, XLR to ¼”, ¼” to 1/4”, speakers – Speakon, ¼” to ¼”), stands, (mics, PA, speakers), electrical (extension leads, kettle cords, power boards, gaffa tape) - and then there’s the speaker(s). The PA and harp amp are the small, easy bits!
Haven't read every response here, but I tend to agree with 5F6H. Adam has found something that works FOR HIM. Adam has a one man or sometimes 2-piece band. He has complete control over the sound system, the FOH level and the stage audio level.
My recipe- as a guy who performs with a 5 piece band and/or at jams: own a very small amp (recording, low-volume gigs, practice) and a big amp (live performance with band.) You need nothing else. If the venue is big enough to need more than your big amp there will be a sound system and a guy to run it - let him. Your goal is only to hear yourself on stage.
The small amp plus personal PA to me is a very reasonable way to have a "big amp" - its just 3 boxes instead of 1.
As for "As we know, big tube amps (Bassman-sized) have a harder time delivering a good, manageable, easy-to-work-with tone in a small room, where the player is forced to dial the volume back. " that depends on the amp. For a Bassman this is frequently true. However both my Sonny Jr Super Sonny and Avenger amps sound great even when turned way down. If I need even less than that I'll use a Kalamazoo.
I'm glad to see this old thread brought back to life, but I should note that I have never actually used this method of amp reinforcement on a gig. I was speaking theoretically here: a possible way of doing business, amp-wise.
I do have something to add, though. In the happy hour gig that I've recently been playing with guitarist Alan Gross (The Blues Doctors), I bring along a truly small PA, not the sorta smallish one described in the first post above. I bring two very small harp amps (Kay 703, Masco MU-5). These are basically practice amps. They've got a great sound together, and they have SOME stage volume--not bad for a duo context--but not quite enough to hold their own against a loud guitar amp. Then I mic the Kay with a Sennheiser e906, run that mic through the small PA, and--this is the key point--turn up the bass control on that channel. The mic already has good bottom end response, but this brings out another element of that.
Turning up the low end on the PA channel through which you're miking the harp amp is only something I'd do when you're miking a small amp; it's certainly not needed when you're miking a Bassman or other 4 x10 amp or even, perhaps, ANY amp using 12" or 15" speakers. But it's something you might try. Let your ears be your guide.
All the suggestions I've made in the post are in the service of getting a full sound with workable sustain at an appropriate volume. I'd urge players to try them only if you're struggling right now with a) an amp that you just can't turn up high enough to get sustain in gig conditions without drowning out the rest of the band, or, alternately, 2) a too-small amp that keeps getting drowned out by the band.
I've had a fair bit of experience with both things. I slowly moved towards a two-smaller-amp solution, with one amp miked through the PA, and I'm really happy with my sound now.
The video below was the final song of the night. I turned up the harp slightly in the PA vis a vis earier in the gig. Alan's guitar had been dominating. This completely solved that.
Great video Adam! Question for you...are you splitting the signal to the 2 amps or are you running a line out of one into the other? I have also been using 2 amps on occasion: The Champ and bone stock Epi Valve JR combo V2. The Epi is a little brite for my tastes but with the right volume mix, it sounds really good.
Another question for you: Why is that place not packed with people????
I am a fan of the BOSE PAS systems. Adam, for $100 more you could have had the L1® Compact system
Bose® Spatial Dispersion™ loudspeaker technology delivers sound evenly across the stage and throughout the audience—even to the extreme sides.
Integrated bass speaker in power stand Two setup positions: collapsed for smaller spaces or extended for larger ones. Ideal for musical performances. Carry it in one trip. Set it up in one minute. Fill the room with Bose sound.
The L1 Compact system combines conventional PA and monitors into one sleek unit. Positioned behind or to the side of a performer, it delivers wide, even sound coverage throughout the stage area and audience—even off to the extreme sides. It's the smallest, lightest, easiest-to-set-up L1 system, weighing just 29 pounds.
I use the larger systems, myself, but for a one man band or duo, the small system is excellent for small to mid size rooms or small outdoor venues.
Brian Purdy and I did an outside experiment using one of his HarpGear amps a few years ago. His amp has a direct line out, which we plugged into the BOSE PAS. Tone through his amp is fat and juicy. Reinforced through the BOSE it was fat and juicy and filled the outside space w/out being too loud. Next we stuffed pillows and blankets over the speakers of the amp to totally muffle the sound, so all you heard was the BOSE....same fat and juicy tone as the amp.
I've mic'd my small princeton and run it through the BOSE. Fantastic sound. When I needed more volume, just bumped up the BOSE volume knob. With the BOSE behind me, the added bonus was NO PROBLEM HEARING THE HARMONICA, even with full band, and NO FEEDBACK ISSUES.
Can't beat that light weight and set up/break down in a few minutes. ---------- The Iceman
The system that I'm playing through in the clip above is actually a Yamaha Stagepas 300. Musicians Friend has it for $550. It consists of two wonderfully compact and full-sounding speakers, one of which has a 6/8 channel mixer and 2 x 150 watt amp built into it (it's removable).
I originally bought it as a powered monitor system, and the powered speaker works beautifully as that. But it has proved to be the perfect small-club PA as well. It's perfect for the duo thing we're doing. The two speakers are real easy to sling around. The clip above shows you what kind of vocal sound it delivers. Wear headphones to hear how good it is. Smooth rich bottom end response. It was money extremely well spent. I don't need a Bose!
Here's a clip in which I play through the other system outdoors. It's excellent for that.
People tend to make a judgement without ever having had the BOSE experience. BOSE puts the sound in the air in a unique way that is different from traditional proximity based directional speakers. ---------- The Iceman
For the money that sounds pretty good! There are many ways to sound good, but it becomes a bit of a challenge when you try to do it inexpensively. I was playing in a duo about 12 years ago when I was thinking about do the some similiar. I was looking at some PA amps and speaker cabinets from the late 60's early 70's. Mainly a Marshall 100 watt PA head that had solid state rectifiers and everything was tube technology. I started looking into that and a couple old EV or Altec Lansing cabinets. My god was that stuff expensive!!!!!!!!! Back then it was going to cost about $2500 or more!
Yes, Iceman, I've played through a Bose PA system. Dave on Drums, our late drummer, had one. It sounded nice, when it was working, but it didn't always work. Sometimes it decided to crackle in a terrible way. It also didn't have as much low end response as either of my two current PA systems.
I love Bose's WaveRadios. I bought one for my wife and one for my mom. They have incomparable bass response for very compact radio/CD players.
I'm extremely happy with both of the PA systems I've currently got. I have a habit, when I spend money on stuff, of second-guessing myself. In this case, I'm truly a satisfied customer.
Interesting. My first BOSE had a crackle issue. I had to pay shipping to send it in, but they fixed it n/c. That was 7 years ago, and both systems I own have been trouble free ever since.
I find the low end is pretty impressive when eq'd properly. Then again, I went for 2 sub woofers per stick as well as the mini-amp which will drive 2 of these sub woofers by itself.
For BIG FUN with larger group and/or outside setting, I'll stack all 4 subs on one side (2 running off the base unit and the other 2 driven by the mini-amp). When you stack them this way, it totally reinforces the low end like crazy (as well as gives an impressive visual). Usually run kick drum mic and direct line out of bass player's amp through system, as well as lotsa other stuff (depending on the musicians used for the gig).
Anyways, I love the system. Always get great response from audiences when I use it - lately been doing a few "sound gigs" in my small GA area for special events. ---------- The Iceman
IMHO,what Bose does best is marketing hype and a great ability to extract maximum dollars from the consumer. I've only heard the L1 once as an audience member at a local acoustic show. I was not impressed. It wasn't bad,mind you, but it didn't live up to the marketing hype. After hearing from Iceman,I'll try to give them another listen. Could have been the room.
After reading Adam's O.P. and then 5F6H's post that it was nothing new. I'm not so sure it hasn't been done before,but not very often. For the solo/duo format, it's a great idea. You can get that sweet breakup you get from a small amp and get it to sound like a 4X10's bottom end. If you brought a 50 Watt 4X10,you'd probably be too loud before you got in the breakup zone. But for a full band,you might as well just bring the 4X10.
here is a vintage champ mic'd with a fireball the bose speaker is behind me the pa is cranked up the amp is only on two no problem with feedback the speaker was ear level i could hear my self fine when that amp is turned up it has a gorgeous tone
I'm with the Iceman. We used to preform with a $7000. PA systen and had to pull a trailer around to gigs. We now play thru 2- L1 Model,2 Bose towers with 4 bass units "B1's" and 2-T1 tone match mixers. We have a 4 peice electric blues/rock band. I also use it with a 2 man acoustic act and a 5 peice easy listning act. We will never go back to a conventional PA. You just have to learn how to use the Bose, it has a learning curve just like any thing else. Hey but to each his owne. That's what makes the world go round. I also have the L1 compact I use as a personal monitor when playing with other bands and use the line out to the house PA. Couldn't be more satisfied but the cost is a bit high.Mike
There are some good discussions in this thread. The way I see it...
There are 2 distinct "jobs" to be done by harp amplification: 1. shape the tone, beyond what happens inside your harp and your body 2. amplify the sound, so audience hears it mixed correctly with the band
What many of you are saying (including Adam) is that these two jobs can be best accomplished when dealt with separately. A small tube amp with the right mic and right pedals can be optimized for the tone you want, if you remove the "amplify job" from the equation. Then as a second step, the PA (either dedicated or shared with the band) focuses on the job of faithful amplification of your sound. Some people have played that way for years. Others have always used a 1-box solution (a big tube amp that delivers both tone and volume), often with great success.
I think the revolution we now see happening is: 1. PA systems are getting better and more affordable, so as Adam suggested, why not have your own dedicated one? 2. Your options for getting the tone right are only growing, with an unprecedented range of mics, amps, pedals and cables - both new and vintage. Not to mention the massive range of different sounding harps on the market.
I like this idea of divide and conquer. Job 1 is the tricky one: getting the right tone and sound. Job 2 is relatively easy: faithful amplification arriving at all ears in the room with the right volume relative to the rest of the band.
And of course, in front of these two "jobs" is the "main job" which is performed by the interaction of lungs, stomach, throat, nose, mouth, tongue, hands and harp. That is where I am currently focusing my improvement efforts.
neil young uses a deluxe as his main amp he also uses his own pa on stage
Neil has his own private P.A and a Yamaha mixer. He has a separate microphone that's not connected to the house for each amp, and he can mix these to any level he wants. He mainly hears Deluxe, a lot of Baldwin, and very little Magnatone. Out front and on record, you can hear mostly Deluxe and Magnatone. Inside the big speaker cabinet to the audience's right are 2 two-way Maryland Sound P.A. cabinets with 2 15s and a horn apiece. These cabinets have 2000 watts of biamped power, and gets turned excruciatingly loud. It just kills me to go out there-I just about get knocked over. And that's what Neils hearing. This produces the feedback, and if we didn't have that on, the sound wouldn't be the same. Neil doesn't wear ear protection, and he's had a problem with that recently. I doubt if we'll be seeing this again soon. Right now he's gone into total acoustic.
From 1976 to 1979 I used a 1969 champ with a sm-57 mic, it was connected to the PA with SM-57 and a direct box and it sounded like a jet taking off when turned up.there`s many a way to set up and if your chops and tone are on then do it to it...
My opinion, it's all subjective. I think Adams playing style tends to be comparatively bright, his rig probably wouldn't work too well for his opposite, Deak Harp. I don't really like the Yamaha mixer effects on mine, way too bright with a real cheap sounding reverb. I prefer an old Shure mixer that I have, it has a much warmer tone and a reverb spring. My sax player friend really loves the Shure tone. I paid $75.00 for it five or six years ago.
Last Edited by Lonesome Harpman on Jun 03, 2014 10:45 AM
Right on the mark Greg! The Sonny can be dialed down and you don't loose all of the fullness in your tone. The Zoo is fun and different but it just doesn't compare to the Sonny tone.
