geordiebluesman
359 posts
Mar 28, 2011
1:54 AM
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Hi Harpers, i just became the proud owner of a Shure 520DX Green Bullet mic which is lovely but is feeding back like a bitch( it even feeds back from my heart pacemaker!) my amp is a Roland Micro Cube, i don't know if it high or low impedance, is there anything i can do to allow me to ramp up the volume without the horrible shreiking coz i want that gritty overdriven chicago sound and i am being denied by the feedback.
Cheers Geordiebluesman
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Fingers
16 posts
Mar 28, 2011
2:47 AM
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My old green bullet is dual impedance not sure if yours is! but if so look in the jack if there is a spare wire swap it over and see if this works! i am sure someone will come along with a more technical answer! hope you sort it out Fingers.
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jim
777 posts
Mar 28, 2011
3:08 AM
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trash it. It's not a mic, it's a marketing rip-off.
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7LimitJI
440 posts
Mar 28, 2011
3:29 AM
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The amp will be high impedance.
Changing the mic to low impedance will severely cut its output into that amp.
Sounds like its already set for high.
Turn the treble on the amp all the way down,then slowly turn it up till it feedsback, then back it off a bit.
Have the amp as far from you as practical.
Don't stand/sit directly in front of the amp in line with the speaker.
Keep a tight cup on the mic.
Always keep your back to the amp as your head/body will shield the mic.
If the above does not work, try a graphic equaliser guitar pedal to dial out the feedback frequencies.
They are not so great as it can dull off your tone if used too much.
Valve amps are easy to mod to lower the input gain just by changing a valve.
The Roland is solid state and difficult if not impossible to mod.
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Last Edited by on Mar 28, 2011 3:29 AM
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jbone
506 posts
Mar 28, 2011
4:27 AM
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7limit took the words out of my mouth.
consider a different map like a epi valve jr or even a vintage low watt tube amp. much more friendly to the hot harp mics we favor.
conversely maybe a low z mic like a shure 545 or sm57 would work better with that roland.
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markdc70
61 posts
Mar 28, 2011
7:52 AM
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You may be trying to turn your gain up too far, seeking the overdriven tone you want. Try keeping the volume up to at least half way, and then creeping up the drive until feedback is unmanagable. When I first got an amp and mic, I too was looking for a real dirty sound, but that means a lot of gain and a lot of feed back.
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XHarp
431 posts
Mar 28, 2011
7:55 AM
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I have a 520DX as well and it can produce nice tones and good volume but it does require carefull use.
I use a Peavey tube amp with 12" speaker, Boss DD6 delay and blues driver pedal.
To avoid feedback I have to have the amp high range all the way off, the mid range just off the bottom and the bass on full. Then I control the feedback using the mic volume. If I can't cut through the mix then I mic the amp and push it through the PA.
There is always a way around it and you can do it without spending any money on amp mods.
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
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Greg Heumann
1093 posts
Mar 28, 2011
7:58 AM
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Turn the gain knob all the way down. Gain is the enemy. Why? Download All About Harmonica Microphones, and Then Some to understand. But keep in mind that ANY mic/amp combination will feedback at some point. If you need more volume than what you're getting at that point, you need a bigger amp. Fat tone DOES come from overdriving an amp, but in our case, that overdrive comes from microphone + technique, NOT from increased gain (which guitar players can use to get Hendrix-like feedback and tone because guitar stings and pickups don't couple to the sound waves coming from the amp nearly as well as a microphone.)
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/Greg
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ReedSqueal
108 posts
Mar 28, 2011
9:28 AM
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Jim, don't hold back.. tell us how you really feel about that mic.
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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dougharps
53 posts
Mar 28, 2011
10:09 AM
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Greg is exactly right about the gain/feedback link using any of these modeling amps (and many tube guitar amps) with a harp mic of any kind. The settings for a good blues amplified guitar sound are feedback hell with a harp mic.
I have used a Micro Spider for relatively quiet jams, using one of Greg's Ultimate 57 high z, low output mics. On the micro spider I use the lowest distortion setting and low gain, using the volume and master volume to be louder without feedback.
You can maximize your volume with your 520DX (I used one for several years a while back) if you use very little gain on the mic or amp.
First find the tube amp model setting that has least gain and distortion, so you can drive it to distortion. If it is totally distorted a low gain, it is sure to feedback. You should choose a relatively clean tube amp model. Start with no reverb or other effects. Cut the treble very much and maybe even the mids some. Set your mic to mid volume at most, and gradually bring up volume on the amp, with the low gain setting.
Then you can experiment with the mic/amp/effect settings from there on. You can learn a lot about amps and mics by experimenting. Do this when you are alone, so you don't get a different kind of negative feedback from your "audience"!
I find that a low output mic and/or a clean mic is best with a modeling amp or solid state rig.
My lightweight sit-in rig using a Class D solid state 44 Magnum (not a modeling amp) has smooth distortion past the 12 o'clock setting, and I can reach the highest volume without feedback by using a low output Shure 585 and an eq pedal to adjust frequencies before the amp. I run it to a 10" Eminence Lil Buddy speaker. I used this rig sitting in with Kilborn Alley, which is a fairly loud band, and they liked it. It could be heard all over the club and on stage, since I tilted it way back and bounced the sound off the ceiling.
I plan on dragging this little sit-in amp along to HCH II rather than bringing my tube amps. If I find the right time and place at HCH II to bring out an amp, anyone interested in checking out a non-traditional super light weight harp setup is welcome to give it a try.
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Doug S.
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jim
778 posts
Mar 28, 2011
11:14 AM
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well I have a 520DX. And like most of you, I bought it because it's marketed as the one-and-only-true-chicago mic for harp.
I tried it with 5 amps so far and it feedbacks like hell, especially with the epi valve jr. And I can't say anything positive about its sound too...
Guys who know more about mics say that it has NOTHING in common with the old bullet mics.
As for feedback - buy an EQ pedal. I'm not sure that it will help with 520DX, but it helped with a shure 515 - now it has zero feedback. EQ will also help you get a way better sound out of it.
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Kingley
1473 posts
Mar 28, 2011
11:31 AM
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Geordiebluesman - I had a 520DX for a while and never had feedback problems with it. I would follow Greg Heumann's advice for taming the amp. I would also look at your cupping technique. If you aren't cupping the mic correctly then you'll never get a good sound or stop feedback.
Jim - Well as the old saying goes:"A bad workman always blames his tools!" :-) Seriously though. It's not as good as an old CM/CR element. However although not ideal the 520DX is still a perfectly useable mic.
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geordiebluesman
360 posts
Mar 28, 2011
11:44 AM
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Thanks for all the replies guy's, lot's of suggestions to work on.
The Roland has about 5 amp effect settings built in and i have it on the dirtiest setting with no gain and tone set to it's lowest, so based on the above i am going to try a cleaner setting and work up the gain to see if that works.
I am also interested in perhaps using a pre amp, would that fatten up the sound?, also Jim i like ya straight talking style my man, your like a sugar free Buddah!, could you give me some more info regarding EQ units?
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jim
779 posts
Mar 28, 2011
12:07 PM
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@Kingley: very funny but not the case with 520DX. With the epi, it is roaring feedback with volume at 2.
@geordiebluesman: I have bought MXR 6-band EQ. More bass, less treble. No strings attached. A 10-band EQ would give you even more versatility as it adds extra bands not covered by this box. The 6-band version is build very solid, has no noise added to the sound, and the bypass is true. It is also very small, which is great imho.
The sound difference with and without it is huge (maybe because the valve jr. has no built-in tone control?), and the last slider (3.2khz is the "feedback killswitch"). NO feedback with 515. With 520DX, EQ helps, but it's still feedbacking when you hold it not very tight.
UPD: there's also a cheaper EQ by BOSS. Don't buy it. It's not good.
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Last Edited by on Mar 28, 2011 12:08 PM
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hvyj
1324 posts
Mar 28, 2011
12:31 PM
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@Jim: The MXR 10 band also has gain and volume sliders which are like "pre" and "post" controls on a preamp and are VERY useful for harp. Also the MXR 10 band EQ has a 250hz slider which is a freq that nicely fattens harp tone and is EXTREMELY useful for harp. BUT although it has sliders at 2k and 4k it does NOT have the 3.2k slider you like so well to control feedback.
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Rift
60 posts
Mar 28, 2011
12:36 PM
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@geordiebluesman - I have found using this amp that the black panel setting is the best. It gives me the sound I like the best with no feedback. The Brit Combo and classic stack setting start to squeel right away even at low volume unless you are a full 20 foot or cable away. Even with those settings without feedback I still prefer the black panel. Set the tone around 10 oclock and add a just a touch of chorus if any at all. Then turn up the delay until you get it where you like, maybe around 9 oclock for me. It will sound kick ass. I should mention I use a JT30 and not a shure 520 mic but you should be ok.
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jim
780 posts
Mar 28, 2011
1:31 PM
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@hvyj:
what sort of "gain" can it give? I'm trying to understand how it works.
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LittleBubba
35 posts
Mar 28, 2011
1:53 PM
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I would agree with those who have indicated that the place to check first is the amp voice setting. I have one of those microcubes and have found that with a 520DX the farther clockwise the amp modelling voice is, the more chance of feedback.
I would not take Jim's advice to throw the mic away; it is not the source of the problem. Although there are many better mics, a 520DX will serve you well if you play well; and if nothin' else, one can't have too many backup mics, since wiring problems seem to occur in bunches.:)
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LittleJoeSamson
548 posts
Mar 28, 2011
2:38 PM
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Rift I use mine similarly. I like the Black panel setting, or for a little more volume and a Butterfield sound I use the JC clean.
Tone @ 9:00 , Gain @ 1:00, Volume @ 10:30, Slight delay, Chorus for minor keyed songs.
But, I use a lo-z mic...several varieties.
As for the GB's, I would say they are overpriced, given the fundamental design that has not been improved upon over many decades. Too many good players use them to say that they're no good.
Personally, though, I just don't much like the weight of the darn things.
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LittleBubba
37 posts
Mar 28, 2011
2:56 PM
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Yeah, Greg H. is always burnin' on the heft of the 520DX as well, as he should, since he's so good at solving that size/weight thing with his mics.
I've rehearsed at higher volumes playin' through the microcube (mic'ed up into the mains) and even played a couple gigs that way (wouldn't do it again) and I never had a feedback problem. I've been able to get feedback with that mic/amp combo by goin' too far up the dial on the modelling selector though.
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hvyj
1325 posts
Mar 28, 2011
5:51 PM
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@Jim: You can do a lot of different things with the gain and volume sliders. They work like pre and post controls on a preamp. They will boost or cut 12db.
You can turn both up for a hotter signal (more gain going into the amp) or you can turn both down to cool out the signal going to the amp (less gain to control feedback). OR turn the gain slider up higher in relation to the volume slider and you get more dirt. Turn up the volume slider higher in relation to the gain slider and the tone is cleaner. However, you can be clean or dirty at the SAME volume levels depending on which slider you set higher and which you set lower. Also, if you nudge the gain up just a little higher than the volume there is a point at which the mic signal sounds "big" and the mic sounds more sensitive or responsive--this is at a point just before the tone starts to get dirty. So, these 2 sliders really help tone shaping and feedback control.
You've got to fool with the relative settings on these 2 sliders and experiment to get a real feel for what they can do, but the MXR 10 band EQ pedal can work like a preamp if you figure out how to use these 2 sliders. Very, very versatile and useful for playing harp into an amp. You just have to fool with the relative settings a little to understand what they can do to your tone.
Also, pumping the 250hz slider is perfect for getting a nice FAT harp tone whether clean or dirty. You may need to turn the very lowest and very highest sliders all the way down since those are not really usable freqs for shaping harp tone, but the 250hz slider is EXTREMELY useful, IMHO.
Hope this answers your question.
Last Edited by on Mar 28, 2011 5:52 PM
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strawwoodclaw
223 posts
Mar 28, 2011
6:06 PM
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Hakanehn uses a Roland cube but I think he uses a low impedance SM57 mic without a HIZ transformer. Green Bullet DX are high impedance so you need a HIZ input you get these on vintage amps & Harp amps.
Watch Hakanehns videos I think he might use a Green Bullet as well with his Roland but with it been a modern amp I guess a low impedance mic will work better with it.
you might be able to use the effects on the amp to get a overdriven sound with a low impedance mic but it will sound different to Chicago sound . if your using a hiz green bullet you will need to turn the treble down & bass up.
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hvyj
1327 posts
Mar 28, 2011
6:30 PM
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Being a long time fan of using low z XLR style mics for harp I can tell you based on experience that if an AMP has a 1/4" input and an XLR input you will always get better tone for harp if you use an IMT and go into the 1/4" input instead of directly into the XLR input. I don't know why this is so, but that has been my consistent experience and I've been using XLR style mics for quite a while.
Btw, this does NOT hold true going into a PA board. The XLR input on a PA works just fine for harp.
Btw, I am under the impression that most of what Hakan does is purely for recording. I would be curious to learn if his sound can be reliably reproduced in a live band setting on stage at performance volumes. I'm not necessarily suggesting that it can't, but live sound amplification at different performing venues has to be done in a much less controlled audio environment than recording. What can sound terrific in the living room (or studio) doesn't always work as well live, on stage, in public with other musicians playing at the same time.
Last Edited by on Mar 28, 2011 11:43 PM
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RT123
118 posts
Mar 29, 2011
4:56 AM
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@ Jim
You have one yet you told him to trash it??? If you are going to throw yours away let me know and I will gladly pay shipping for you to send it to me. I am serious about this...
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hvyj
1334 posts
Mar 29, 2011
5:07 AM
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@Jim: I agree that he shouldn't trash it. It is very usable as a paper weight or a door stop.
Last Edited by on Mar 29, 2011 5:08 AM
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jim
782 posts
Mar 29, 2011
6:11 AM
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@hvyj LOL
@RT123 Well I meant to get a find a normal mic. What price would you be willing to pay for it? I'd gladly get rid of mine. It's modded - no cable, no VC (it was crackling after 2 months already), jack input, longer body for more holding comfort.
@hvyj: the 10-band EQ has a built-in solid state preamp?
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Kingley
1477 posts
Mar 29, 2011
6:19 AM
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Jim - All EQ pedals that have a level control basically speaking have a pre-amp. If you boost the input level then the signal will overdrive and if you set up the EQ correctly you'll get a pretty good "electric" sound by just going straight into the PA.
I played that way for a few years with just an Astatic JT30 (MC151 element) into a Boss GE-7 and then direct into the PA. It was a reasonably good sound. So much so that I often had other harp players asking me what amp I was using. They were amazed when I informed them of the rig I was using and often didn't believe me until I showed them the cable to the PA.
Last Edited by on Mar 29, 2011 6:20 AM
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colman
39 posts
Mar 29, 2011
7:16 AM
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if you cut high and middle off and low all the way up
it will be a good place to start.less chance of feedback and puts some balls on them tinny reeds.you can always adjust high and middle up but full low is where a fat tone starts.....
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hvyj
1335 posts
Mar 29, 2011
10:50 AM
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@Jim: i'm not sure if it actually has a preamp in it, but it sure acts like one. I agree with what Kingley is saying about this. It works into an amp as well as into the PA>
@colman: I respectfully disagree. In my experience the real action for EQing harp is in the LOW MIDS--approx. 240hz.
Too much low end and you get a muddy sound and lose articulation and, btw, low end can feedback horribly if you crank it up too far. Rolling off some of the highs may not be a bad idea, but I strongly disagree with the conventional wisdom that you get the best harp sound by turning the treble all the way down and the bass all the way up. IMHO, the real trick is how you set the mids.
Last Edited by on Mar 29, 2011 10:57 AM
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rharley5652
440 posts
Mar 29, 2011
11:31 AM
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Set Your Amp to a more traditional high bass, low mid, bit of treble,.. even with the 520 DX which is not a bad mic // I've built many mics with the DX element & the owners luv em//Just gotta tame the beast!
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Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
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geordiebluesman
363 posts
Mar 29, 2011
2:58 PM
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Hi guys, well i had about an hour today playing around with various setting as suggested by some of the above and the feed back issue is definatly improved on the Black Panel setting BUT even with the tone fully anticlockwise the sound is still a bit to tinny and bright for my taste so should i try some sort of FX or EQ pedal to add more base?
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Woody
37 posts
Mar 29, 2011
4:41 PM
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My tuppence worth Geordie......buy a LoneWolf
HarpBreak pedal ('Harmonicas Direct' stock them) for
great distortion and then use your amp clean.
My tuppence on the 'live gig' scenario Geordie....
If you go through the PA, good monitoring allows low
amp volume, feedback minimal.
I haven't sussed out a loud amp onstage setting other than considering buying the 'Kinder Anti-Feedback' pedal.
(I use a Fender Blues Junior, Hohner BluesBlaster mic)
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Electric Harp....I just love it.
Last Edited by on Mar 29, 2011 4:42 PM
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Rift
62 posts
Mar 30, 2011
6:41 AM
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@geordiebluesman
You have solved the feedback issue with the settings we suggested but not you are not getting the tone you want. it could be the tone you are putting into it. instead of adding effects, try to adjust your playing. It the sound is a little too bright the way we suggested i am going to guess you are not getting a full seal around the mic. to get a gritty lower sound you need to make sure you have a complete seal aroung the mic and harp.
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chromaticblues
735 posts
Mar 30, 2011
7:31 AM
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Rift if want a mic I have about a dozen!
Unlike Jim I actually threw my 520 element in the garbage. I have the shell. Which I find to be very uncomfortable to hold and easy to drop. When in the company of friends and family. I often refer to the mic in quiston as a f[]ck!n piece of $h!t! I have owned 2. Shure got sucked into that marketing ploy! Twice
Have you tried taking that mic out into your driveway and smacking it against the asphault?
Last Edited by on Mar 30, 2011 9:23 AM
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Rift
63 posts
Mar 30, 2011
7:44 AM
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@chromaticblues - I guess they must be really shitty. I think I changed my mind now, LOL. I do like my JT30 though. I never tried the green bullet but the shell looks usuable, maybe not though but what you are saying.
P.S. I love the Manji in D that I got from you a few months back. I played it again last night for about an hour.
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Joe_L
1170 posts
Mar 30, 2011
9:19 AM
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I've never understood the disdain and outright hostility toward the 520DX. I've got a 520DX. I paid $50 for it. No problems with it. I've been able to get a good sound out if it with a variety of amps. It's not the best mic that I own, but it has been well worth the price that I paid for it.
I've found it to be a great match with the Harpgear Double Trouble and a Meteor Mini-Meat.
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chromaticblues
736 posts
Mar 30, 2011
9:22 AM
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@ Rift Well its kind of to big, Its kind of heavy and its hard to hold with one hand. Its actually larger in diameter about a 1 1/2" from the front the than the grill. So it has a mild slope toward the user. What can happen (and I mean what I have done in front of a couple hundred people) is have the mic slip out of my hand and smack the floor. I've found a mic that can be held with one hand comfortably while holding a harp is a mic that you will be able to use your hands to manipulate the sound with.
I look at it like this use what ever makes it easier.
I bought the 520 twice like I said just as Jim stated. Its advertised as THE harp mic and because of the popularity of the old Shure mics. Shure sells alot of these to people that don't know any better. I know I was one! I don't really care for the sound of it either. If it was something I couldn't live without I would have figured out a way to make it work.
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chromaticblues
737 posts
Mar 30, 2011
9:44 AM
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@Joe L - There is one actual problem with the 520. The metal springy thing that goes around the cable where the cable goes in the bottom of the mic. Well that is part of the ground circuit. The first one I had was making this slight cracklin noise every now and then. When ever I tried to find what it was it wouldn't do it. Well come to find out when I was doing warbles the spring was moving and causing the cracklin. So I took it apart and saw how it was made and thought thats not a problem. I just need to put it back together tight thats all. Yeah I did. Did the same damn thing. One good thing about them is they have good resale value. Or at least they did. I brought it back to the music store and traded 3 new harps for it. So that was good.
Like Joe said its not the best mic I've ever owned. I guess I have always owned something that I liked better. Its not the only mic I have ever owned that I didn't care for. Just the only one I didn't like that I bought twice. Damn I gotta stop doing that!
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oldwailer
1581 posts
Mar 31, 2011
1:34 PM
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Hey Geordie--I know, I'm too late to help with the issue here--just thought I'd throw in a comment anyway--I have a green bullet--here's my thoughts--
1) I added a 1 meg volume pot on it--that helped a lot, although I still really have to watch the volume or it will feed back--it does help to set the bass on full and the treble backed clear off though.
2) Not to be too personal--but I have noticed in your videos that you have a rather unconventional way of holding the harp--doesn't look like a tight cup at all, and you have this habit of waving one hand around for no real reason (which is the same habit I had when Buddha smacked me with the Monkeys Fist and inadvertently named the club of his disciples).
I would say that you need to work on your acoustic cup--jam you're right cheek into your left index and thumb to close up the top side--SEAL your hands around the harp until you can feel suction in the palms of your hands when you draw. If you open your lower palms just slightly, the fuc*in harp should squeal "mama" without any embouchure change at all. When you start getting a good compressed sound acoustically--jam that bullet in there like its the head of a live cobra and you gotta choke it to death before it kills you. --do all this while maintaining a half inch or so from the back of the harp to the face of the bullet. If you choke the harp out totally--congratulations, I didn't think that was possible!
Then go forth and kick ass while staying out of the amps firing line (if you have to be in the line--get your body between the mic and the amp)--I think most of your feedback issues will go away--although you'll probably still find the bullet as goosey as a virgin lady until you get a pro like Greg Heuman to work it over.
BTW--when do we get a video of your new Dulcimer???
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