HarpNinja
1235 posts
Mar 21, 2011
7:16 AM
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I had a very *interesting* gig this past weekend. It was a small stage we'd played before (not my band but a band that asked me to play with them). The first time, I had my HG50, but we were crammed on stage. This time, I was going to just run my board straight to the PA and use a powered monitor.
Well, the house PA was a mess. The monitor out was somehow connected to the mains. Meaning, if you messed with the mix of the monitor out, it messed with the FOH sound. So I had to have EVERYTHING in my monitor, which defeated the purpose.
Plan B was to plug straight into my QSC K10 powered monitor and lineout to a PA channel. In that way, only harp would be in the monitor, but it could be mixed FOH. The problem was my signal going into my Harp Break and then the QSC wasn't hot enough even with the QSC cranked.
I ended up having to use the monitor out which made my signal hot enough to have the QSC at 9 o'clock.
So here is the question....
What can I use to boost my signal if I wanted to go straight into the monitor? Would a DI box help? Should I get a small two channel mixer?
The ideal would be to use the QSC like an amp and feed its lineout FOH. Thanks!
***When I play with my band I use my mixer and run the monitor out to the QSC and everything is bliss, lol.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 3/17/11
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JBharmonica
16 posts
Mar 21, 2011
8:19 AM
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I would definetly go with a DI box. Do you have a stereo out?
I guess I need to know your signal chain first.
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JB
http://www.facebook.com/jbharmonica
jbustillos@gmail.com
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MrVerylongusername
1629 posts
Mar 21, 2011
8:21 AM
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Can you clarify the entire signal path from mic to FOH mixer, I'm a bit confused when you say 'run my board' do you mean pedal board or a minimixer of your own.
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Greg Heumann
1074 posts
Mar 21, 2011
8:34 AM
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First - its your gig. Why not wire the PA properly with separate monitor channel?
Into an unpowered monitor, you need an amplifier. For a powered monitor you need to boost your mic signal to line-out level. You need a little pre-amp. I think you have a harp attack pedal - that will do it - however the output impedance is high whereas the PM's input is low (even though it might be 1/4") so hook up an impedance matching transformer between the pedal and the powered monitor.
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/Greg
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HarpNinja
1236 posts
Mar 21, 2011
9:23 AM
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I was running an Ultimate 57 with a impedence transformer into the Harp Break. The Harp break then had a 1/4" out to the board (I tried it into the QSC and that was when the signal was too low).
It wasn't my PA or my gig. I had set up my rig and everything was fine. Someone else then went over and made adjustments to the board including unplugging some cables and not plugging them back in. There was all sorts of feedback and mix issues. Not fun. Eventually it got straightened out to good enough.
Honestly, I knew exactly what to do (which isn't saying much as I have very limited PA knowledge) and offered to several times, but my help wasn't wanted. However, there was a bit of too many cooks spoil the stew, so I just stepped away.
It was a classic case of using too much gear (too loudly) to do a small gig.
Regarding a transformer or DI box. Doesn't a DI do that as well? If anyone can share a link to a good one to get, please do. I greatly appreciate the help!
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 3/17/11
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Joe_L
1140 posts
Mar 21, 2011
10:00 AM
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Mike - I'm an old school, traditional Blues player. I try to keep things simple. When I play through the PA, it's vocal mic -> cable -> PA. Mix the vocal mic as any other vocal mic.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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Kingley
1463 posts
Mar 21, 2011
10:04 AM
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I'm with Joe.
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hvyj
1321 posts
Mar 21, 2011
10:28 AM
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I'm also with Joe. i used to do A LOT of straight to PA playing. Most PA boards have sufficiently sophisticated EQ to allow you to get a decent sound going XLR style mic>XLR cable>PA board. A VC on the mic (like you have) can be helpful.
Now, this being said, sometimes getting a decent monitor mix can be a problem. An experienced player should be able to get through a gig without a stage monitor when confronted with that problem, but it ain't fun and it ain't easy when you can't hear yourself.
now, when you use the 1/4" board input jacks, you bypass the board's mic preamps. So, I think you get better EQ for harp using the XLR input--if you want heat, just up the gain control and maybe pump the midrange a little while you're at it for thickness. You don't need a distortion box. The controls on the board can give you just about everything you want. But when you turn up the gain (or "pad") on the board you have to be careful--a little can go a long way, and you may also have to turn down the volume control on the board a little to compensate when you turn up the gain so you don't feed back.
I'm not sure whether using the 1/4" input instead of an XLR input on the board contributes to monitor mix problems or not--I don't pretend to be a sound tech. I'm just passing along info I've picked up along the way over the years.
Last Edited by on Mar 21, 2011 10:44 AM
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MrVerylongusername
1630 posts
Mar 21, 2011
10:52 AM
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Driving monitors from the main FOH mix is a pretty last minute resort. Must have been a pretty crappy desk to not have a pre-fade aux.
Going straight into the board wouldn't have helped his monitoring issues because the PA guys clearly didn't have the equipment or the knowledge to set up decent fold back.
Mike - I'm not familiar with this powered cab, but I've sound an image of the connections.
I think you could solve this by taking the output level of your rig down to mic level with a DI box as others have suggested, but it should just be able to go into the left xlr input with the switch set to mic level, then an xlr out from the (what I presume are) thrus (the xlrs before the gain stage) which should drive a mic channel on the desk.
Worth a try.
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HarpNinja
1239 posts
Mar 21, 2011
11:06 AM
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@Joe_L
Trying to do that was the problem. The PA wouldn't let me run that signal back to my monitor through the monitor out. It was a very loud band and there was no way I'd have been able to hear myself at all without using a monitor (there was no amp to use).
The first thing I did when I got there was try to plug straight in with an XLR. Everything was fine until someone else adjust the board.
At that point, using the monitor out from the board was 100% useless. I then tried to use my mic right into the mixer on the powered speaker. However, there is no eq or ability to adjust the gain...I can only adjust the volume of the speaker. It was not going to be nearly loud enough for stage volume.
I then got out the Harp Break thinking it would bump my signal to the monitor enough to be heard, but that didn't work either (it also let me try a 1/4" to see if that was a factor).
With time and resources being as they were, I just took the 1/4" out of the monitor and plugged it into a channel on the PA - that way it was obviously not an XLR or something anyone else would need to touch.
I ended up setting the gain on that channel to less to unity and using the monitor out (which also sent signal from everything else) to the monitor. I had plenty of stage volume and signal, but no control over the mix which was overwhelmingly guitar, and the guitar amp right behind me. It was harmonica hell. The more I turned up the harp in the monitor the more everything else was turned up too - no independent mix.
The ideal would be to set up a self contained PA and lineout to the board - my original intent. However, the powered speaker doesn't have a mixer built in, nor does it evidently have a preamp that would get my signal high enough.
So what I need is something that let's me go to the monitor/speaker and control how hot the signal is - like a gain knob on a PA channel. I thought maybe going mic to DI to powered speaker would work for a pad, but I don't know.
For my band, I just go right into the board and eq/mix from there and send that to my monitor regardless of if I use an amp or not. It works perfectly every time and I have tons of volume to spare.
When sitting in with groups, I want 100% control over my stage sound, and a night like that explains why. Other people can mess with the settings, etc. My VHT would have been the right size, but not nearly loud enough. Using the powered monitor like a keyboard amp would have been the perfect solution.
My monitor lets me lineout right to the PA and has two channels, so I can run my vocals and harp mic right into the back and then send it to the PA. However, there is no eq or gain on it.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 3/17/11
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Joe_L
1141 posts
Mar 21, 2011
1:31 PM
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Mike - You could have removed some of the other channels from the monitor leaving just the vocals and harp. If not, you're sort of screwed and out of luck. Additionally, if you can't hear yourself in the mains, you're equally screwed. When I am in that situation, I pare back the amount of playing I do to something I know stone cold and know I can pull off without being able to hear myself. What did the singer do? Was that person in the same boat?
You might be better off finding a quieter band.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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HarpNinja
1242 posts
Mar 21, 2011
1:38 PM
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Evidently, this is what I was told, that when the monitor gain was turned down on the other channels it effected the FOH mix, so yeah, I was screwed.
He didn't use a vocal monitor. I was close enough to the main that I could hear his singing, but I am not sure how he did it.
Normally I bring an amp just in case. However, my battery died right when I was set to leave. In my haste to switch vehicles, I forgot to go back in the house and grab the amp and stand for my harps.
My buddy who plays in a really successful contemporary country cover band emailed me today saying he now uses a 5w Victoria Champ for all his gigs. Jealous!
They play rooms from 200-2,000 people for $1,500+ a night...so he has every excuse to lug around the loudest amp he wants, lol.
The group I played with this past weekend is usually very fun and easy to work with. However, I had a horrid week in general and this was really par for the course.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 3/17/11
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Joe_L
1142 posts
Mar 21, 2011
2:43 PM
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Mike - Maybe your future is playing country music?
If you were close enough to hear the singer, why couldn't you hear yourself? Did they cut your level in the mains?
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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HarpNinja
1244 posts
Mar 21, 2011
2:55 PM
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Sorry. I meant monitor. Everything foh was in my monitor including his vocals.
I have responded to a dozen+ Craigslist adds for country music with one no thank you and one really ridiculously arrogant and rude no.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 3/17/11
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Joe_L
1145 posts
Mar 21, 2011
4:12 PM
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Well Mike, I was sort of joking about your future being in country music.
Country music, like Blues and Jazz has a very tight network of people. To break into those genres, you really have to pay a lot of dues. You have to meet people and invest the time.
To some people, the players in those genres appear cliquish, but they tend to be people who know what they want. They are accepting of people with a similar love of the music.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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dougharps
50 posts
Mar 21, 2011
7:23 PM
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Do any of your effects have L and R outputs for stereo? Or do you have a signal splitter?
I have played a few gigs with one band (don't use it usually with others) and have used a digital effects unit that has stereo outputs. I send one channel to the board for the mains, and another channel to a Fender 1270P powered monitor. The monitor has its own volume and tone control, so I can adjust it and hear myself fine. I hear the singer on a regular vocal monitor from the board.
In a desperate situation you can put a cheap foam earplug in one ear and hear yourself better through resonance.
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Doug S.
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HarpNinja
1248 posts
Mar 21, 2011
7:51 PM
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That might be worth a try, Doug, as I do have stereo outs from my M13.
Joe, I actually would love to be in a country group. They don't usually want harmonica...so technically, I take the gamble of replying to adds for steal, utility, etc. No one on our craigslist ever needs a harp player, lol.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 3/17/11
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boris_plotnikov
485 posts
Mar 21, 2011
9:34 PM
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I still hate playing to PA, as I become dependent on PA quality and stupid (usually), drunken (often) sound guy. If it's possible I prefer to get two amps to gig. However recently I have a harmonica hell with local Marshall amp, as we was no allowed to plug our amps (contest conditions, all bands played through the same rig), I plugged my own tube pre to Marshal poweramp it was big 4x12 cab and it feeds back too early and was to quiet, while drums and bass was too loud, sure If i'd use my two 1x10 amps I'll sound much better.
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
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Greg Heumann
1076 posts
Mar 21, 2011
11:09 PM
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One word. Avenger.
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/Greg
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didjcripey
50 posts
Mar 22, 2011
12:46 AM
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I have found I can get a good result using a valve pre amp. I was going to get a DI box, but the pre amp does the same job and adds the warmth of a valve. You can run a hi or low Z mic into mine and it has a low and a high Z output, so I can run one to PA and one to small amp for monitor if I want, or what I usually do is split my signal after effects; one to amp and one to pre amp/PA. Usually I leave the pre amp turned down and save it for when the band gets stupidly loud.
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Lucky Lester
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Shredder
247 posts
Mar 22, 2011
5:02 AM
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No more giant amps. for me. 5 watt HG2 to the PA. Been doing this for a while now. I do use a delay pedal when not playing thru our PA. My bands PA has a sweet delay effect in the mixer.
Mike
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HarpNinja
1250 posts
Mar 22, 2011
5:39 AM
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Greg,
The issue with this particular event was the stage size. The footprint of the HG50 isn't all that enormous, but I didn't even have room for my pedal board. Bottom line, I guess I am most interested in whether or not a DI can boost one's signal.
This was the worst case scenario of playing with a band. It will probably never happen like this again - or at least I'll remember my amp as back up.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 3/17/11
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