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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
3-hole bending
3-hole bending
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Reverblow
1 post
Feb 28, 2011
7:46 PM
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Hello all. I'm a new member, residing in the Puget Sound area of Washington state.
I've been fiddling around off and on with diatonic harmonica for a few years, starting out with Lee Oskars. For the past year I've been trying out other makes and models, Marine Band, Suzuki's (Bluesmaster, Harpmaster, Hammond), Seydel 1847's and Delta Frost's.
I've recently been trying to learn basic gapping and experimenting with caution.
What I've run into with OTB harps is that the 3-hole draw bends seem to be the hardest to get, but mainly always on the Ab, A and sometimes the Bb harps without some sort of adjustment. I'm a decent bender, but am wondering if that is the norm for others. This subject is likely to have been brought up before, but... thanks for whatever thoughts you all may have.
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Reverblow
2 posts
Feb 28, 2011
7:59 PM
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Forgot to mention that I have a Manji in A that is maybe the toughest to adjust. Just can't find the G-spot.
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Dog Face
96 posts
Feb 28, 2011
8:48 PM
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I don't have a Manji so I can't really say anything about that but have had a couple of different brands and I will say that it doesn't always depend on the brand. I've found that with the 3 bend, it's my technique. Even though different brands have their own juju, different keys have their own juju, and even different reed materials have their own juju, with the correct technique I'll be making the noise I want.
So to me, it's just getting to know that harp. It may take a slightly different tongue position to hit the right step in the bend than say a Hohner of the same key but I'll practice the same song or drill on different harps so as to get to know that harp. After a while you understand that harp and you'll just hit it naturally. As for tweaking, Jim's got a good series of videos on customizing.
Without someone checking my work I tend to screw my harps up. So to me, less is more when it comes to tweaking and more is more when it comes to practicing technique. So yeah, sorry for the rant. Long story short- do drills practice technique.
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Be safe, keep the faith, and don't let em tearrrrrr ya down.
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chromaticblues
643 posts
Mar 01, 2011
7:22 AM
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@Reverblow keep on tweaking the three draw on the different models you have and when you find one that is easier than the others you just found the harp that is naturally right for you!
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barbequebob
1582 posts
Mar 01, 2011
7:57 AM
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Actually, the real problem here from reading the post has very little to do with gapping at all, as it is clearly two bad playing technique problems that are VERY common with newer players.
Every harp IS designed differently (or there'd be huge patent infringement lawsuits that would never end), and every key responds differently and so that's the reason why all teachers tell you that the first key to start with is C because it's in a range that most people can easily handle and every key no matter who makes it REQUIRES subtle adjustments to get the most out of them.
The first problem that's obvious here is that you embouchure is too stiff and rigid and you're trying to force it to stay or get memory muscle and that something that you should NEVER be doing at all because one thing you need is flexibility so that you can easily make any and all necessary adjustments and along with that, all throat and facial muscles MUST be 100% FULLY RELAXED as well and trying to force it only makes everything more difficult for you and you're just shooting yourself in the foot doing that.
The other thing is clearly breath force and too many people's natural reaction to frustration is forcing everything and too much breath force is a byproduct of that and that is also bad playing technique as well and can quickly lead to damaging your harps.
The way to get the bends is, regardless of which method you use to get your single notes, is that the embouchure has to be FULLY RELAXED (this alone is something you need to take time to learn so that you have muscle momory and quit trying to force things to happen) and to get the bends, you basically just drop the teeth VEEEEEEEEEEEEEY slightly (do NOT do exaggterated movements or you'll make things difficult for yourself ASAP) and do NOT ever use more breath force because breath control is a VERY important and often times totally overlooked technique and too much force, you lose total command of EVERYTHING you're doing.
In each hole, the highest note in the hole bends down in 1/2 step increments to the lowest note in the hole. On a key of C, the draw note is a B (unbent) and the lowest note is G. There are 3 bends in this hole, and starting from the unbent draw note, first note is B, then 1st bend is Bb, 2nd bend is A, 3rd bend is Ab, and then finally the blow note is G.
If you use too much breath force, you almost automatically go past the floor of the band and the last bend will be totally out of tune and sound horrible.
Too often players automatically believe their problems are defects, real or percieved, but 80-95% of the time, the REAL problem is in their playing tewchnique and this clearly is the case and adjusting the gap really isn't gonna help all that much because even with the gap not quite right, a skilled player can still get them, maybe with a tad of difficulty, but still get them.
What Dog Face says is close to the real deal here.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Reverblow
3 posts
Mar 01, 2011
8:08 AM
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Thanks much for the comments and insight. I will indeed spend a lot more time pricticing the techniques mentioned, and I'll save my gapping practice for a couple of cheap harps before moving forward. With a little luck maybe I'll have righted my own playing wrongs by then and little gapping will be needed.
Cheers, Reverblow
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captainbliss
449 posts
Mar 01, 2011
8:29 AM
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@Reverblow, @barbequebob:
I agree with pretty much everything BBQ says about player technique, breath force and relaxation.
Actually, paying heed to two pieces of sage advice - breathing with less force and taking a singing lesson - has done *wonders* for my playing.
Although...
80% - 95% seems a bit generous to the players? More like 95% - 99%...
except (slightly OT, sorry)
RE C harmonicas:
I start pupils off with a G (and I know one of the teachers on Adam's A-list here on MBH does, too, I pinched the idea from him!)
Why?
IMHO...
(i) It's easier to make nice sounds on a low harmonica.
(ii) Low harmonicas produce a much clearer tonal "reward" for breathing from the diaphragm.
(iii) Low harmonicas seem to discourage that horrible wail-on-the-4-draw-breathe-in-breathe-out-hey-look-I'm-playing-the-blues thing that Cs and Ds seem (to me, at least) to make all too easy.
Also...
/[The C harmonica] REQUIRES subtle adjustments to get the most out of them/
That's a very interesting and very useful thought. Thank you!
xxx
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orphan
6 posts
Mar 01, 2011
9:37 AM
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@BBQBOB
I have been following what you have been saying about bending and decided to work on my technique. I checked myself with a tuner and found that although I have been bending for years and getting the 1/2, whole, & 1 1/2 step bends on draw 3, they were not the right notes. My ear just got accustomed to hearing them out of tune. I have improved the pitch a lot and need to keep practicing. My question is why does the whole step bend on hole 3 not sound as good as the other draw bends on hole 3, or the draw bends on 1,2,4, or 6? The tuner tells me I am at the same pitch but one octave lower than hole 6, (A on a C harp), but it just doesn't have as good a tone. Doesn't bother me in crossharp playing Blues, but in 1st pos. it just doesn't sound like a clear tone. It is the same in different keys. It also is the same on
a Special 20 or a Golden Melody.
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barbequebob
1584 posts
Mar 02, 2011
7:58 AM
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If you use the type of tuner most guitarists use, there's a much larger margin for error when compared to a strobe tuner. Quartz crystals are accurate to within 1 semitone (1 cent), wheras good strobe tuners being made today by Peterson are within 1/1000th of a semitone (.0001 cent), and even 30 year old Conn Strobotuners that you can still find on Ebay are accurate to within 1/300th of a semitone (1/300th of a cent).
It still sounds like you've still got very serious intonation and articulation problems with all of your bends regardless of what position of music genre your playing because those old habits still haven't gone away yet and they sound like they've become heavily ingrained and that makes getting rid of those MUCH more difficult but it CAN be overcome.
Your bends may still be far more inaccurate that you think because bending accuracy, just like overblow accuracy has VERY VERY LITTLE to do with playing positions and you're still hitting those bends harder than you think and so you lose accuracy trememdously. If you use a throat vibrato with the bend, it compounds the situation if your bends aren't 100% accurate to begin with and since the problem is in all keys and all harps, it's still a technique problem that needs TRUCKLOADS of woodshedding with, especiallly since this is heavily ingrained.
I have to assume that you've been teaching yourself since day one and this is one of the problems that can occur from teaching yourself with no one around to let you know immediately if something's not right and won't be afraid to get in your face immediately the second they hear it.
With some blues style, you may be able to get away with SLIGHT inaccuracy in pitch with bends, but once you play something outside of blues, you ZERO margin for error and every inaccuracy sticks out like a sore thumb, however it still stounds like your bending in blues is far from accurate right now.
Many teachers usually stop what a lot of players who teach themselves want to do far too often right off the bat is instantly riffing because players first need to know where everything is by memory and help them train their ears properly and when it comes time to bend, learn melody FIRST because if you can't get an accurate bend on a vocal melody, it AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN on a solo either.
Some tunes to get more practice with accurate bends and ONLY play vocal melody would be the following in 1st position:
Peg O' My Heart
I Left My Heart in San Francisco
Take Me Out To The Ball Game
Star Spangled Banner
For cross position:
Misty
Why those tunes? They ALL need VERY ACCURATE bends and the first position stuff requires tha 3 hole, 2nd bend to be absolutely ON THE MONEY.
With Misty, here's where the 2 draw, 1st bend, being a major 7th has to be on the money as well.
The three bends that many players hav trouble with are the 2nd bend on the 3 hole draw, and on the 2 draw and 10 blow, the very 1st bend, which is a 1/2 step.
There's a saying that you learn more from stuff you hate than the stuff you like and this surely applies here.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Mar 02, 2011 8:00 AM
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captainbliss
455 posts
Mar 02, 2011
8:07 AM
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@barbequebob:
/1 semitone (1 cent), wheras good strobe tuners being made today by Peterson are within 1/1000th of a semitone (.0001 cent), and even 30 year old Conn Strobotuners that you can still find on Ebay are accurate to within 1/300th of a semitone (1/300th of a cent)./
Interesting maths!
/Why those tunes? They ALL need VERY ACCURATE bends and the first position stuff requires tha 3 hole, 2nd bend to be absolutely ON THE MONEY./
Wish I'd "met" you when I first started playing...
xxx
EDITED 'cos it's rude to misspell someone's name!
Last Edited by on Mar 02, 2011 8:08 AM
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chromaticblues
648 posts
Mar 02, 2011
8:51 AM
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@captainbliss
One (1) semitone (halfstep) is 100 cents!
There are many inexpensive tuners that measure a semitone in the correct manner (which is 100 cents). Because a siemitone is 100 cents. Strobe tuners that can break a semitone into 1000 parts is OVERKILL for tuning a harp, but for trying to get perfect pitch bends it would work very well!
I would say your just going about it the wrong way from the start. Your intensions are good, but method is just in the wrong direction.
Try matching your bends to the keys of a piano! because thats really what your trying to do.
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captainbliss
456 posts
Mar 02, 2011
8:56 AM
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@chromaticblues:
Thank you for the maths, the advice and the attention to detail...
EDIT: written with tongue *firmly* in cheek, I might add...
xxx
Last Edited by on Mar 02, 2011 9:06 AM
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chromaticblues
649 posts
Mar 02, 2011
9:14 AM
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Yeah I was half kidding, but piano stuff does work real well. If you have chance give that a try.
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HarpNinja
1161 posts
Mar 02, 2011
9:39 AM
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Don't use a tuner. Bob's post is excellent and you'll get much more mileage out of trying to match a reference pitch than trying to match a tuner of any sorts.
Remember, playing 100% in tune is not always going to sound in tune. If you are playing with a band - live or virtual - the odds of everything being tuned to the same reference pitch is none. The key is to hear the note, be able to recreate it, and have enough experience that you automatically adjust your embouchure to match the pitch.
One concrete example is playing 4th position and trying to play the tonic (3 bent down two semitones). If you are resolving to that note against the band, say to end a song, you will find the sweet spot to be different from harp to harp and you naturally start to bend more or less to match it.
This is further complicated by the tuning of your harp. If the 3 draw is tuned to 0 cents on one and -11 on the other, the embouchure will be different then too.
The key is to hear the note against the chord that you want to hit and then hit it...so if you are playing a melody, you will naturally want to be in tune with your harmonica. With a band, it might be different.
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 2/24/11
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Jim Rumbaugh
430 posts
Mar 02, 2011
10:32 AM
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Today I was practicing my 3 hole bend accuracy and tone. It still NEEDS work even after 10 years, and by chance, I did play the Star Spangled Banner.
Today's self discovery is a repeat of what many other have said before. The deeper I put the harp in my mouth, the better the tone of my 3 bend.
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
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snakes
627 posts
Mar 02, 2011
11:08 AM
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Reverblow,
Hey, where do you live in the Puget Sound area? I live in Snohomish and work in downtown Seattle. I play Suzuki's (mainly Fire Breath's and Manji's). Did you know that Suzuki keeps a guy on staff down in San Diego (I think its San Diego) and that his lot in life is to tweak new harps that are not bending easily, etc. when they are returned. There is no charge for this work and it sounds like (I've talked to him on the phone and emailed him) he is not very busy (kinda like the old Maytag repairman). I hope this is helpful. If you'd like to communicate off this forum regarding Suzuki's or Seattle music then contact me on Facebook and I'll get you other contact info. My name is Weldon Follis.
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snakes in Seattle
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chromaticblues
650 posts
Mar 02, 2011
11:25 AM
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@Reverblow
I believe the mans name is Gary Lehmann. He post here under Gnarly! If you have Suzuki questions about newly purchased harps. I would contact him. Or at least he will know who you should contact anyway.
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orphan
7 posts
Mar 02, 2011
11:46 AM
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@ HarpNinja
Maybe its the timbre I'm confused about. Is the 3 draw whole step bend A on a C harp going to sound the same as a 4 blow A on an A harp?
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GamblersHand
260 posts
Mar 02, 2011
12:49 PM
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@orphan
In my experience there are very few players who can get a similar timbre with a 3 draw whole step (on a C) compared to a 4 blow (on an A). On anything other than a passing note there typically is a marked difference in tonality.
On one hand, that's part of what gives each position part of their characteristic quality, on the other
hand it gives something for us beginners and intermediates to strive for.
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HarpNinja
1164 posts
Mar 02, 2011
1:09 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/user/jasonricci#p/u/26/GC8haqwJfKw
That vid should help. The timbre will be different, but the inntonation can be identical. If you have computer speakers, just google pitch forks or pianos and you can use those as reference pitches.
I admit that I totally cheat on all bends and add vibrato. It sounds good and lets me find the pitch against the band if I want to sustain it.
I abuse overbends like this all the time too. Like the 5ob to the 6 blow over the IV. My note attack is more like Jason's than Chris Michalek's, but I pretty much try to steal his vibrato and dynamics....the operative word being, "try".
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Mike
Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas
Updated 2/24/11
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Reverblow
5 posts
Mar 02, 2011
1:19 PM
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SNAKES: Thanks for the San Diego guy tip. Like to contact him. I'm located in Bremerton by the way and wouldn't mind chatting off-Forum. I'm not much a Facebook guy, but I'll drop you line there. My photo is of my cat,, who prefers lower keyed harps. I too started harp at nearly 50. Been playing sax much longer. I had a Firebreath, but opted for Hammonds instead (I own 4).
CHROMATICBLUES: Thanks also for the followup on Gary Lehmann. I notice you're a harp adjuster/customizer in your own right. I currently have, but only two Hohner and Marine Bands. Do you also work on Delta Frosts? I have about 8 of them. I have found they play rather well out of the box, but they could probably use some tweaking by someone much more capable than I am.
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chromaticblues
654 posts
Mar 02, 2011
7:41 PM
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@Reverblow
Yes I just sent some Marine Bands and Delta Frosts to a guy here on the forum. You can contact me at sbaker60@cox.net
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