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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
changing my mind about traditionalism
changing my mind about traditionalism
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kudzurunner
4791 posts
Jul 20, 2014
7:40 PM
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The world in which I really learned to play the blues--roughly the 15 years between 1983 and 1998--was an unusual moment within an evolving blues culture. There was a certain balance between older, more experienced players and younger, emergent players. The NYC scene in which I learned was very much a transracial thing, with as many younger black players as younger white players. I saw a lot of touring pros, not just harp players but guitar players and band leaders, and they, too, were about equally divided between black and white. They were, with very few exceptions, all experienced professionals. The touring guys, more often than not, were traditionalists of a sort: Rod Piazza, Little Charlie, Charlie Musselwhite (he was drinking in those days, and playing his old stuff), Albert Collins, Philip Walker, James Cotton, Sugar Ray and the BlueTones, William Clarke, Jimmy Rogers, Junior Wells, Carey Bell. I'm not doing a good job of naming names; there were a lot more than that. The guy I played with, Sterling Magee, wasn't a traditionalist at all--he was constantly harping on the need to innovate--but he could be that way because he had, he WAS, the tradition. You have to know it and own it before you can expand on it and/or successfully rebel against it.
A few radical innovators came through NYC, most notably Sugar Blue, Robert Cray, and, in his own way, Buddy Guy. There weren't many of them.
It has been obvious to many, including me, that the blues scene has changed in the 15 years following 1998--the last 15 years, you might say. The older black players are slowly dying off, the white traditionalists have moved into place as their inheritors, and the numerical balance has significantly shifted towards white players. The awards, the organizations, the whole tenor of the scene, has changed somewhat. I was there, 20 years ago. It's different now.
Over the past year, I've had a chance to see a range of acts, including those with significant presence on the contemporary airwaves, and I've slowly come to the conclusion that something HAS changed. Although the best players on the scene, both black and white, remain top-notch, I believe that a certain kind of well-connected white amateur, people flush with cash, conections, and/or enthusiasm but without adequate grounding in the Old School, has slowly risen to a place of prominence in the scene.
This is, in a sense, a new kind of modern blues player: the sort of player who makes me want to say, "Go back and listen to the classics. Take the shit seriously. Learn how to groove." The people I'm talking about aren't particularly innovators; they're just audibly ungrounded. They're people who BBQ Bob would almost certainly accuse of "not having it," of doing things that would get their butts kicked by the black elders who ran the Old School.
99% of the time, on this forum, I've spoken AGAINST traditionalism and on behalf of the modern sound. That is still my position: it's still ultimately about mastering the tradition in a way that then liberates you to find your own voice and make fresh, new music that has the ancestors alive somewhere inside of it. But to the extent that that position depended on my stipulation that--as I might put it--the "burdening hand of tradition rests too heavily on the shoulders of the current generation"--I'm forced at this point to modify that assertion. It's not clear to me that the tradition, such as it is, is resting too heavily on a lot of people. I think that a substantial number of the musicians I've seen in the past year would actually be well-served to go back and listen a little harder to Muddy and Big Eyes. I think it's the deep listening that's missing.
Maybe YouTube is to blame. Maybe it's all about looking these days. Maybe nobody is spending time engaged in deep listening.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 21, 2014 4:04 AM
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kudzurunner
4792 posts
Jul 20, 2014
7:41 PM
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And please note: I make these claims out of wide listening, with no intention of naming names. I will, however, say that I've been extremely impressed recently by the music of Juke Joint Johnny and Eric Hughes & his band. Kenny Neal is (still) fantastic. But it's a strange new blues world--stranger than I realized, until I got out into it and began listening hard. Women are a part of the problem, too, but no more so than the guys.
Discuss, from our own attendance at live shows and listening to contemporary recordings. Name names and post videos, if you wish. I won't. I'm just saying.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 20, 2014 7:43 PM
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walterharp
1466 posts
Jul 20, 2014
8:00 PM
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this seems like one way to deal with it..
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JustFuya
334 posts
Jul 20, 2014
8:03 PM
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Musical evolution is inevitable. Like it or not. Call me racist but I prefer a respected black musician telling me I have chops over the applause I've had from any audience.
Discuss.
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Littoral
1123 posts
Jul 20, 2014
8:20 PM
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I'll say it's a House of Mirrors and you don't much enjoy your current view -but it's nothing new. You seem to think that the view is new and yes, your experience and perspective weigh plenty given your attention for many years, but I really don't see less emphasis or value now on "You have to know it and own it before you can expand on it and/or successfully rebel against it."
I'm actually somewhat hopeful. And, I've been paying serious attention to the state of blues since about 75.
Last Edited by Littoral on Jul 20, 2014 8:22 PM
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eharp
2183 posts
Jul 20, 2014
8:37 PM
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I think you need to keep in mind that technology has had some influence on your views, Adam.
More people can be heard because of the internet.
More people can find others to play with because of the internet.
That is going to raise the numbers of players that YOU believe need to listen to the traditionalists.
And, maybe, being an educator and player and leader of a harmonica
community puts you in the position to hear even more of us weaker players. Yep. I put myself firmly in that category. I know my level, and as a good friend said to me, "You are an average player and happy with that." But I can buy a $5 harp at Cracker Barrel and release some music that is inside of me and the regular Joe will think it is pretty damn good. That is very exciting for a person who never had the patience for trumpet as a kid and who has nerve damage in both hands and loves the sound of the Blues.
But I am having fun with my playing. If I play with a band for some charity in front of 50 people, or go sit in Blues jam with Ricci, Gruenling and Madcat or entertain some friends and clients at work, I don't care if I can't play behind the beat or struggle finding the groove. I am playing for myself.
Add this to the equation, too. This country spends a whole lot on recreational activities. The average person has an easier time finding money for a harp and learning to play it than they do buying a guitar or golf clubs or fishing gear. (Well, maybe not fishing gear.)
All of this, mostly, is directed towards younger people. There are probably quite a few players that don't deal with computers, because of their age or lack of extra income, that blow the hell out of the harp.
Sarge, a member of this forum (Sorry, Sarge) is a good example of this. He is an extraordinary player, this coming from Ricci, but Sarge is not in position to heard by many people.
And, Just, you are a racist.
Having Adam or Rick Estrin or Jason or Rod or BBQ Bob tell you that you have chops aint gonna do it for you??
(the last 3 letters of the capcha was "kkk" ;-( )
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LSC
659 posts
Jul 20, 2014
9:14 PM
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Adam, I'm with you wholeheartedly. And I'll tell you why.
For the past several months I've been listening to B.B. Kings Bluesville on Sirius. They play a range from Robert Johnson and Lightin' Hopkins to Rick Estrin, Robert Cray, and a lot of guys that I never heard of but to me are obviously contemporary. Of the contemporary records most are guitar oriented and almost exclusively in the SRV clone mold. Now I love me some Stevie Ray but these clone guys not so much. They're trite in the extreme and their lyrical content is often total rubbish. Heard one the other day whining on about how awful it was being a road musician. Stevie, Jimmie, Kim Wilson, all those guys learned from the originators and had a deep respect for their art and how they got there. They genuinely studied that shit.
When you speak of the awards, the organizations, the tenor of the scene having changed, I see that in my own community as well. There's a certain arrogance coming from big fish in a small pond. Yet, the guys/gals who really have "it" got it from looking back, studying, and continuing to study while at the same time being themselves and in some cases pushing the form forward. And they recognize in a heartbeat what is real and what isn't. Because of that I would value their respect and strive to one day earn it.
Lastly, the guy I'm working for the past several months is as authentic and genuine as they come. He's worked the chitlin' circuit from the time he was a boy. He's picked cotton. He's had dogs set on him. Hell he's got a cousin whose daddy is BB King. He's also got a voice and a style you just don't hear anymore because their almost all dead. There is so much nuance and texture and just a whole lot of stuff that screams "Real Deal". An excellent guitar player who subs with us quite regularly has told me with so much excitement how much he has leaned off this guy. He said the most important lesson was not about riffs or what to play but that THE most important element was emotion. And that I think is what is missing in too much of the blues scene today but that could be found by looking back and really listening.
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LSC
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LSC
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bublnsqueak
30 posts
Jul 20, 2014
11:21 PM
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I like eharp's technology argument:
Its the same on TV. I can remember when, here in the UK, there were only 3 TV channels. You had to be good to get airtime.
Now they have so many channels they are desperate to fill them. The quality is laughable.
The same argument can be applied to YouTube etc.
So there is no evolutionary mechanism. It lets the Walter Mitties of the world have the stage.
Paul
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JustFuya
335 posts
Jul 21, 2014
12:18 AM
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eharp -- I put a hook out there and you bit. Thank you!
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harpdude61
2069 posts
Jul 21, 2014
3:29 AM
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"I believe that a certain kind of well-connected white amateur, people flush with cash, connections, and/or enthusiasm but without adequate grounding in the Old School, has slowly risen to a place of prominence in the scene."
First, it's good to know that us white amateurs have a place of prominence.
You could be talking about a lot of players on this forum.
Well, maybe a lot of middle aged white amateurs were influenced by ideas of a "modern blues harmonica", by listening to more Jason and Carlos than Sonny and L.W.
Maybe this group and it's fans are not expecting to play or hear traditional blues, so they do not feel the sense of disappointment that you do.
I'm sure those that grew up in the suberbs of the 60s, 70s, and 80s, won't quite have the feel for traditional blues that the black kids born before 1950 working in the fields did.
As well as you sing Adam you don't sound at all like the traditional black artists. You know you are near the top of my favorites list as a harp player, but I can hear the difference in the way you play compared to the old legends. Same for Jason and many top white players.
I talked to Terry Bean about this. He said that he is saddened that very few of the young black kids from the south show interest in harmonica or even blues.
The music was bound to change. We should be thankful that we do have the middle age white guy that can afford jam camp and weekends in the hill country learning the art.
No worries, I'm sure a few of "us" will stay as traditional as possible.
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www.facebook.com/catfishfryeband
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kudzurunner
4793 posts
Jul 21, 2014
4:26 AM
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Duane, I'm not talking about you, so don't worry about that.
LSC's response is resonating with what I'm trying to say. At the deepest level, what I'm trying to say is that the blues, more even than I've understood, is an art form that depends, in the learning phase, on a human connection. You can learn from records, up to a point. You can learn from videos, up to a point. You can learn on the bandstand from playing with guys from your neighborhood--up to a point. But at a certain point, you need to study with (and I'm defining "study" broadly) actual human musicians who really know and understand the music and who learned themselves from people who know and understand the music.
Pretty much 100% of the old-school black players learned this way, and all the older white harp players who we talk about here learned that way. Seriopus local blues scenes, 20 years ago, were often organized around older black players. Cleveland had Robert Jr. Lockwood; Cincinnati had H. Bomb Ferguson; Chicago had too many players to count; So Cal, 30 years ago, had George Smith. Guys like Rock Bottom and William Clarke had the professional training and people felt that. Deak lived in James Cotton's basement and we know how THAT has paid off.
The black/white issue in the blues is complicated, but there's no question that the black elder / white apprentice model has worked to communicate teachings in a powerful way.
The closest equivalent in another field to what I'm talking about is the world of buddhism, where you've got a range of American buddhists who studied with Master Rinpoche at the Naropa Institute over a period of years. They've been properly taught. They've got some authentic roux in their gumbo.
The point is, that roux is important. Those of us who have heard, live, lots of bands that had it, and who in some cases have played with or studied with individuals who had it--we hear when it's not there. BBQ Bob is the best example on this forum of somebody who can tell the difference.
In any case, I believe that the slow evaporation of the teaching-chain is part of what I'm feeling here. Another part of what I'm feeling may trace back to the near-total dominance of the "legitimate" blues world these days (clubs, festivals, societies, cruises, radio) and for the last little while by what might broadly be called "middle class white folks." 25 years ago, that side of the equation was pretty white, but the musicians who were actually being hired for the gigs and put up for the awards were, by and large, all old-school players. I believe that the contemporary blues world (and, yes, Bluesville to a modest extent) is enabling inadequately trained players/performers not just to have fun and find themselves (which is a good thing, and everybody's right), but to do that in fairly high-visibility ways, and even sometimes to win awards while doing so.
One antidote to this is for video teachers like me to make a much greater effort to remind students, in my videos, that it's not about the notes and holes and bends. Nor is is about "feeling." It's about a certain ethic of professionalism, too. That is one of the key lessons that the older guys taught. It's about taking the music very seriously, even as you're using it to make people happy. It's about knowing what the phrase "take your time" means, and why it was such an important and universal saying in blues circles of days gone by. It's about understanding what distinguishes a bad blues singer from a passable blues singer from a really good blues singer. (Some of us who began as bad blues singers and have bootstrapped our way up to being passable blues singers spend a lot of time trying to hear the difference; others, as far as I can tell, just don't care very much about the distinctions.)
Another antidote, potentially, is for all of us to make a point of letting clubs and festivals know which acts really moved us and which acts didn't--and why.
But I'm not sure there's an easy fix. I'm not making a prescription here. I'm just saying.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 21, 2014 4:39 AM
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jbone
1694 posts
Jul 21, 2014
4:32 AM
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Adam, you are leagues and eons past anything I have ever thought about this genre of music. My goal over many years has been to keep the tradition alive with as little change or dimunition as possible. I have never tried to copy anybody but of course everything I've heard has influenced my playing, vocals, and writing. Still, I like to think I've kept the torch lit for the originators and innovators who made this the foundation music of the culture, from which most all other styles borrowed or stole outright.
I found some other ways to rebel when that was my thing but I have revered my blues heroes and worked to emulate what they did, and do.
Music does mutate and maybe especially blues, which must change somewhat with the times but still be true in its core, or it would not survive long. It's been said that there is nothing new under the sun, and I tend to agree, but at the same time there is a sort of shuffling and remixing of blues almost constantly. If Memphis Minnie or some others saw what we call blues today, they'd quickly disagree I think.
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa7La7yYYeE
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eharp
2184 posts
Jul 21, 2014
4:52 AM
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Adam, You are sounding very close to things our fathers said about music.
I think many of us older members have caught ourselves saying something and then thinking, "WOW. My dad said stuff like that."
Not saying whether or not is true.
But maybe old age brings about this type of reflection.
Just- As the saying goes: Knowing you have a problem is the first step.
They also say that when the pain gets bad enough you will change.
Good luck.
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The Iceman
1835 posts
Jul 21, 2014
6:07 AM
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Very similar to the jazz tradition.
Swing was king till be-boppers made the scene. At first, they were dissed by the traditionalists/critics, but their innovations, over time, took root and became the "new wave" of jazz.
As music evolved, be-bop also became a somewhat static innovation. A backlash against this style was called "cool jazz" and was spearheaded by Miles Davis and Gil Evans.
Things continued to evolve every 10-15 years or so, with a new "sound" emerging.
Listening to contemporary players do the traditional be-bop or hard bop thang, I hear recycled ideas from the original creators, so rather than listen to a new album from a young lion, I prefer to pull out the old sides.
It's seems a similar scenario to the blues scene...'cept for a handful of entertaining contemporary players (like Juke Joint Johnny), I prefer the original stuff or enjoy the progressive sounds of Carlos or Paul de Lay.
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The Iceman
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LSC
660 posts
Jul 21, 2014
6:49 AM
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Adam's last response immediately brought to mind an exchange between our bass player and drummer two weeks ago. The guy I mentioned that we back had invited two musician friends of his, both bluesmen of the same generation and the same part of town, one a guitarist/singer the other a drummer.
Now both our guys are truly great players with enviable track records. The bass player has a strong grounding in blues with notable names in his resume'. The drummer has years of experience in blues bands but is very versatile in jazz and rock, pretty much anything. I consider him one of the very best in town and I'm certainly not alone in that.
So the two guests sit in for a couple and it's excellent stuff. Instantly recognizable as "real deal". When our drummer returns to the stage he said to the bass player, "Well, I think I just got schooled." To which our bass player responded, "Yeah, it's like your father walked up and said, "Move over son. Let me show you how it's done." A learning moment to be sure.
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LSC
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LSC
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Frank
4868 posts
Jul 21, 2014
6:52 AM
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I think a lot of the disillusionment when listening to the throngs of harp players out there is a direct result mostly to many players reaching a mediocre level of harmonica playing and becoming satisfied with that level of ability and decide it is to difficult for what ever reason to put in the blood, sweat and tears to up their game...Let's face it - it is hard enough to reach a "mediocre level" of harp skills and musicianship...So getting to the next level ain't handed to anyone and must be earned the hard way - and a whole lot of players stay stuck because of the mandatory continuous work involved to become a really good well rounded harp musician.
Last Edited by Frank on Jul 21, 2014 6:54 AM
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Goldbrick
545 posts
Jul 21, 2014
7:09 AM
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And then you had hard bop take jazz back in a more bluesy direction.
Technology has allowed musicians to become better technicians but at the price of isolation.
Used to be lots of small clubs that needed new musicians to fill in. This allowed the new guys to learn directly on the job from more experienced players. Those clubs are pretty much gone ( at least in my part of the country).
Now you can be a shredder in a vacuum- use band in a box and pro tools and throw your stuff out there with the big boys
Not sure what the answer is-live music is the key but accessible live music is tuff to find.
I know I dont attend festivals anymore ( too old to deal with drunken crowds) ( unless I am playing) and dislike concerts- there are probably plenty more like me- who wish for the old club scene- but hey I would like a 64 Dodge Charger and $12 lid of Acapulco Gold too,but thats not happening either
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atty1chgo
1012 posts
Jul 21, 2014
7:19 AM
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Adam is hitting on many valid points that need to be (if they already have not been) discussed fully. I want to throw some streaming of consciousness out there for consideration.
I don't believe for one moment that Adam is talking about nostalgia here. What some of us "traditionalists" (I count myself among them) have to be forced or persuaded to realize is that the masters aren't coming back, at least not the ones that are gone. Charlie Parker and Dexter Gordon and Miles and Cannonball Adderley are gone. So are The Four Tops, the Impressions, the Temptations and the Dramatics. The same goes for The Beatles and the old rock acts. And yes, Little Walter isn't coming back, nor is Muddy Waters or Junior Wells or Carey Bell. It's not about resurrecting the dead, but we do need to listen to their music. I just don't think that there is enough of the core, the "roux" if you will, in contemporary forms of music to give the music that important continuity but more importantly its soul. That's why we are getting those awful music forms such as "contemporary R & B" and "smooth jazz" and mindless dance music. Or a bunch of SRV clones. Only country music has somewhat maintained a traditional approach in many respects. And splicing "Hootchie Cootchie Man" on to some hip hop isn't the answer, although as a novelty it is interesting to listen to.
With regard to Frank's comment about being "satisfied with mediocrity", there may a small bit of truth to that claim, but not much. It's not about "settling". Life gets in the way. Give me a year of playing five hours a day, seven days a week, and I would venture to say that I would get pretty damn good. Time to play is always a factor in progression of skill. Scratching out a material existence, for many of us, takes precedence. Your comment is quite presumptuous and not very realistic.
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Ted Burke
78 posts
Jul 21, 2014
7:29 AM
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Change is the only possible constant in this universe, and those things that humans create that have the capacity to change have the capacity to survive, flourish to some extent,and remain expressively relevant to modern experience. Blues , like any other art, cannot remain fixed , in stasis. Those "traditional" forms of blues that well meaning players attempt to preserve and often preach the absolute virtues of, were themselves inventions who took their inspiration and building blocks from older forms that preceded them. It's desirable to listen to, appreciate and perform older blues styles as a means of staying clued to what an older generation of musicians can tell us, but it's folly, I believe, for anyone to insist that the best music peaked there and , in fact, stopped developing. There are only so many kinds of narratives we have in this current life, not so different from the experience of generations before us and, I suspect, hardly so alien to the what a younger generation will come to live through. Conditions change, though, economics, the influx of new cultures and ideas, politics,technology , all these change and inform and influence the blues players who are learning now, or who will learn. Change is the only constant, change is inevitable, and those institutions that don't have the capacity to absorb change and grow as a result will turn into a creaky, crumbling artifact. The blues is about life as it is lived and felt, present tense. As long as there are players who feel, cry, laugh hard and feel deeply, I am fairly sure the tradition of the blues will continue to thrive. It won't be the same, of course, but the point is that the history of the blues will ask you this: when was it ever the same?
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kudzurunner
4794 posts
Jul 21, 2014
7:42 AM
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Goldbrick and Frank, I very much agree with the points you've made. It's possible that mediocre has become the new good, at least in some circles. I'm 100% sure that Goldbrick is right about the tradeoffs we've made: incredible amounts of information available to us, but at the price of isolation. "Isolation," in blues terms, might speak to the fact that blues club gigs are drying up, fewer national acts are touring fulltime or mostly fulltime. Jason Ricci's playing has polarized this forum from time to time--"Too modern! Too fast!"--but nobody can deny that he paid his dues in precisely the way I'm describing: spending time in Junior Kimbrough's juke joint and mixed up in that scene, then touring the country for hundreds of dates a year, first with Big Al, then on his own. You play that many blues clubs in that many parts of America, you not only supercharge your chops and learn how to work with a band and how to work an audience, but you cross paths with a lot of your peers and you end up absorbing a lot of knowledge backstage and after hours. (I'd like to hear BBQ Bob and Mooncat weigh in on this.)
Young players who want to play the blues for real must be made to understand just how important it is to spend time with older players and absorb knowledge that way. Also how important it is to find a scene--or even relocate to where a scene is--and put in some hard time absorbing the lessons that daily interactions with a living blues scene can teach you. Lots of late nights, either attending gigs or playing gigs or, ideally, both.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 21, 2014 7:43 AM
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colman
313 posts
Jul 21, 2014
8:01 AM
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100 players playing 5 years woodsheading and 10 might be on top of the style.most people will never reach the realm of true artist`s.Jimi Hendrix took blues too another world,almost 50 yrs. ago,few have gone there,only did some copy...anyhow that don`t stop folks to love it and play it till the cows come home...!
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The Iceman
1836 posts
Jul 21, 2014
8:11 AM
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Changes in recording techniques and modern technical innovations have also changed the landscape.
Now musicians don't need to be together in the same studio to record. Many times a basic rhythm track is laid down and emailed to musicians so they can add their parts individually.
Sometimes the lead voice is recorded over the basic tracks with supporting music added after the fact.
So, that in the moment interaction in real time has been eroded due to 21st Century innovations, which has an effect on the end product.
Of course, there are those that record the ol' fashioned way, but times they are a'changin'.
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The Iceman
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Barley Nectar
443 posts
Jul 21, 2014
8:31 AM
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I personally don't get the Black, White thing. We are all just people!
The whole music seen is being dumbed down IMO. Technology has made it possible for anybody to sound good after the producer fixes all the screw-ups.
I really don't care what someone else does or sounds like. I make no attempt to mimic or copy them. Many of the famous players got that way by doing their own thing. This is possibly my only link to these folks, I do my own thing. I play harmonica, not BLUES harmonica. A lot of folks enjoy this so I keep doing it...BN
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HawkeyeKane
2569 posts
Jul 21, 2014
8:37 AM
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"Young players who want to play the blues for real must be made to understand just how important it is to spend time with older players and absorb knowledge that way. Also how important it is to find a scene--or even relocate to where a scene is--and put in some hard time absorbing the lessons that daily interactions with a living blues scene can teach you. Lots of late nights, either attending gigs or playing gigs or, ideally, both."
I couldn't agree more. When I was first starting out, I didn't have a whole lot of contact with other acts in my local blues scene. After I started pursuing it more fervently, I started hanging out with local blues buffs, both harp players and other instrumentalists alike. I learned a great deal doing this...like how to handle my own playing between different styles of blues, and though blues isn't my own band's primary genre, I think that by running with the blues cats on my nights off, I've gotten a much better grasp on it.
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Hawkeye Kane - Hipbone Sam
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The Iceman
1837 posts
Jul 21, 2014
9:29 AM
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NOT WANTING TO OPEN UP THE BLACK/WHITE CAN OF WORMS...However, growing up musically in Detroit from '68 through 2000, I did notice a big difference between black/white in regards to how they approached music. Personally, I preferred the black approach, but that's just me.
I assume that this difference had some basis in reality, even though today's world is pushed towards politically correctness and erasing of stereotypes.
I've found that the French are more into food and cooking, Germans into precision mental concepts, Swedish girls are beautiful, Africans rock to a different rhythm than mine, and other generalities.
This is not in stone, but something I noticed in many years of experiencing other cultures.
Personally, I don't want a homogenized world. I like the differences.
Just my thoughts...not fodder for hijacking this thread in a different direction.
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The Iceman
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1847
1969 posts
Jul 21, 2014
9:45 AM
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it does not matter how well a band plays,
if the vocals are sub standard,
it relegates the outfit to amateur
or possibly Simi professional status.
the vocalist needs to be held to the same standard, as the rest of the band.
people will go out and hear a great band,
and a singer with, barely passable,
intonation and timbre, and find it hard to take blues music serious.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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barbequebob
2647 posts
Jul 21, 2014
11:33 AM
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From experience working with many of those old school musicians like a Jimmy Rogers, you get true first hand knowledge in ways you will never completely learn from just by listening to recordings and for me, hanging with them as well as playing with them have given me valuable insights in ways open jams will never give you in a million years.
Even as traditional as one can be, too often many people look at someone who considers themselves as a traditionalist as someone being nothing more than a museum head just playing all the licks note for note that have already been played, but that's just not what a traditionalist really does. You LEARN from it, yet at the same time, you have to put your own personal stamp on it, yet at the same time, you have to make it fit in PROPERLY WITHIN CONTEXT and let's face it, it takes some serious work to understand it fully so that what you do fits in but at the same time, you still maintain your own personal identity.
Learning how to work a crowd is so important and as much as being a good musician is important, you're also still an entertainer and that's a lesson I took away from many of those old blues masters I've had the privilege of being around and recordings don't teach that and neither does sheet music for that matter.
I also got to learn that you have to be prepared for just about anything because a number of them didn't play things like the recordings at all and those who only work with just the recordings and not much else are often easily caught with their pants down.
The whole thing about music, including blues, ain't just about solos, but things most jammers are gonna totally ignore, like groove and feel, which are often times FAR more difficult to master because it ain't like a flashy solo that's as obvious as someone whacking you upside the head with a 54 ounce baseball bat that Babe Ruth once used because it's always the subtle stuff, the things most people RARELY pay attention that's the difference maker in a major way and those guys got on your ass about that like flies on shit.
I know Jason did his homework and learned all the old stuff, and heck, many years ago, I got a phone call from him and we spent many hours on the phone talking about the stuff and learning the tradition takes a helluva lot more than just a one hour go over seminar and there are NO short cuts for that at all.
Even within a tradition, there are regional styles that need to be understood and mastered.
There are some things I do that some may not even think of as traditional, like playing a jazz standard like Red Top by Gene Ammons (a jazzman) on harp, but learning groove, context and concepts go hand in hand.
Having actual real contact with musicians who are REALLY playing it is the single best musical textbook you will ever have and it can be the roughest, and criticisms from them can be brutally honest and seemingly harsh, but learning to be more thick skinned and not taking things personally helps you learn things in ways you can't really measure.
A classic criticism of the "more schooled" musician, that is someone from a background of a great music school/college like Berklee College of Music has been that many can do things in a very "textbook" way, but the saying is often that they're "textbook smart but street stupid," tells you that being surrounded by the musicians who play it for real will teach more than textbooks or open jams ever will 100 times over.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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The Iceman
1838 posts
Jul 21, 2014
11:46 AM
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What Bob sez about "schooled musicians" is right on.
25 years ago, at the International Association of Jazz Education conventions, (then called National Association of Jazz Education), it was the beginning of legitimizing jazz studies, methods, play along tracks, books, etc., at the college level. Many jazz musicians became college teachers (as the small jazz clubs and gigs were dying out) as a form of income production. Even back then, there were a few seminars about how this will change the end result - or the musicians who grew up through this new paradigm.
Before this new direction, jazz musicians had to learn by playing in established big bands or smaller combos. The education was through direct contact with the "old masters", the most valuable source.
However, since big bands were phased out and jazz lost its market share, these situations dried up as well.
The result was a flock of new jazz musicians coming out of schools like Berklee - keyboard players were practicing "Spain" in the practice rooms, for instance - were sounding like clones of Chick Corea rather than bringing in something new to the equation.
So, I agree with Bob in that working with experienced musicians will teach one a lot more than the play along books, videos, workshops now available to harmonica players.
The Iceman
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kudzurunner
4795 posts
Jul 21, 2014
12:25 PM
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Thanks, BBQ Bob and Iceman. The jazz-education model definitely did change. I remember my summer at Berkleee in 1977 and even then, Berklee musicians had a reputation for having a whole lotta chops but not much feeling. Very "technical" players. Yes: "Spain" in the practice room. (My sextet played "Spain." I strummed chords on that tune but steered clear of the head.) But I remember that our teachers were guys who had actually been out on the road and knew that whole way of life. I think the idea was that if we practiced enough at school and paid a lot of dues beyond that, we might get that sort of gig someday.
I think I need to make a YouTube video in which I basically say, "Forget about YouTube videos!" Or at least forget about any idea that with enough YouTube videos and enough practice time in the woodshed playing along with jam tracks, you, too, can play the blues. You'll have the beginnings of what it takes to play the blues, but no more than that. At that point, you need to leave the woodshed and go out into the world so you can get your ass kicked five different ways down the highway. Then you'll have the very beginning of what it takes, but only the beginning.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 21, 2014 12:28 PM
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bublnsqueak
31 posts
Jul 21, 2014
12:34 PM
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I think Hesiod said something like: "youth of today, no respect for society/tradition" etc etc. He was writing sometime long before BC.
My point is that we all reach an age where we dissaprove of youth.... Just saying!
Paul
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barbequebob
2649 posts
Jul 21, 2014
12:38 PM
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The other reputation Berklee guys had for many years were that they eventually "grew up" to be mainly good GB gig players if they didn't become music teachers. I remember auditioning more than a few of them who had the nerve to think that they knew everything and I can't tell how many of them over the years I've auditioned guys like them leaving with their tail between their legs and often times the very first things they couldn't understand was the groove and how to use space, and more than a few were so good technically, but emotionally not much beyond a freaking cadaver and sounding more like they were practicing running scales or trying to play one scale against another one and I've reamed their asses every time they did that.
On the other hand, in the last 12 years I've met some musicians who went there but didn't get caught up in that who took the time to REALLY learn the music in ways none of those stereotypical Berklee guys ever did and one of the first who comes to mind is a sax player named Gordon Beadle AKA Sax Gordon.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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1847
1970 posts
Jul 21, 2014
12:45 PM
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alex schultz comes to mind
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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1847
1971 posts
Jul 21, 2014
12:59 PM
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what is a gb gig player
sorry not hip myself
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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barbequebob
2650 posts
Jul 21, 2014
1:13 PM
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@1847 --- GB player means someone who plays what's referred to as general business gigs, which mainly consists of doing corporate functions, weddings, barmitzfahs, etc., where you have to play at extremely low volumes and remember that you and the band are NOT the center of attention and basically more like background music. These gigs tend to pay much better than most club gigs but originality of any kind NEVER works and these gigs are now much fewer than they've ever been and more often are now done more by DJ's rather than bands and you HAVE to know standards by the truckload (and I do NOT mean blues standards).
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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JustFuya
338 posts
Jul 21, 2014
3:10 PM
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I remember watching the Lawrence Welk show as I was growing up musically and otherwise. (A one anna two anna...) The musicians were reading from a chart and seemed perfect but stiff. I knew early on that my musical direction was elsewhere.
A few decades later I had the opportunity to bend the ear of one of the slide trombone players. He hated that time. It was just a union job and Welk was, apparently, a prick. I can't imagine punching in to a musical job that I hate. I CAN imagine a gifted guy raising a family by doing what he knows best. He found his own brand of happiness, at last, playing in a jazz quartet at a small bar in a small town. He still had a bitter aftertaste but if you didn't know him his music was wonderful.
I've been blessed with other talents that fund my sporadic musical triumphs. If the music ain't fun I don't do it beyond the short term obligation. I realize it's a serious business (©) to some and I respect that as much as I respect I-IV-V. Rules. I'll play by them as long as my smile can keep up.
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kudzurunner
4796 posts
Jul 21, 2014
6:47 PM
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Bubinsqueak, I should point out that I'm not actually speaking about the young, or not primarily speaking about the young. I'm speaking primarily about aging boomers with money and attitude who have decided that "playing the blues," making records, and acting like pros is on the bucket list.
But I'm sure that the young are part of this dynamic, too.
This music saved lives. It brought people back from the dead and kept them from going crazy. It deserves deep respect. It's not a joke. It's serious stuff, not a forum for prancing around a stage, having lighthearted fun with friends, and "finding yourself." Or at least that's how I see it. I'm well aware that not everybody sees it that way.
When I watch the long video of Muddy Waters, however, what I see is a profoundly serious man who knows what he is about and knows how to make the show happen.
Muddy, for the record, had a particular fondness for teenage girls and he was prone to beating them when they displeased him. Howlin' Wolf routinely beat Hubert Sumlin and his other sidemen, some of whom quit because they didn't appreciate being beaten. I don't advocate such behavior. I'm just saying.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 21, 2014 6:53 PM
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BluesJacketman
181 posts
Jul 21, 2014
7:05 PM
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I'm only 24 years old, consider myself young and I'm trying to soak up as much of the old chicago blues and jump blues as I can.
I'm tired of the exact people that Kudzu is talking about. We all know who they are, we've seen them at jams, luckily though here in the San Francisco bay area theres a lot of Real players and pros around here that can keep those guys where they belong. But you still see them at jams.
Heres a description:
Middle Age white guy, greying hair, comes in with a case full of brand new barely played high end hohners or seydels, with multiple very expensive custom microphones, and a big old vintage or boutique amp (Vintage: Gibson or Fender Bassman, Boutique: Harp King or Sonny Junior)
They have egos WAY TOO inflated for themselves, then they get up onstage can't sing a note if their life depended on it so they blow harp way over everyone else, badly, with no feeling, no soul, no groove, playing really loud over the the rest of the band especially the vocalist.
Last Edited by BluesJacketman on Jul 21, 2014 7:18 PM
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blueswannabe
481 posts
Jul 21, 2014
7:07 PM
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"it's still ultimately about mastering the tradition in a way that then liberates you to find your own voice and make fresh, new music that has the ancestors alive somewhere inside of it."
I can't agree more with that statement. Mastering the tradition is not as easy as it sounds either. It takes years and years. Careful listening and continuious study. William Clarke said it best in an interview that he studied the masters such as little wwalter, big walter, sonny boy, george harmonica smith, junior wells, etc. and then he made his blues a little different. He has a unique style that is all his own and you can see his influences. He started when he was 16 years old and likely played at least 20 years before he became well known. He always has the right note in the right place and with such fluidity...and it swings so well.
Last Edited by blueswannabe on Jul 21, 2014 7:08 PM
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jnorem
420 posts
Jul 21, 2014
7:08 PM
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When I was playing in England the guitar player in the band told me about "all these metal guitarists who can't get work, so they decide to be blues players because they think it's easy."
There is a tradition in blues music, one that is more, for lack of a better word, "binding" than, say, jazz or rock. I mean, there's never going to be "free blues."
That tradition is apparent and obvious to those who immerse themselves in the music of the masters and devote themselves to solving the riddles of blues to make it their own while keeping to the traditions of the music.
I don't hold with the idea that there's only one way to learn that tradition. It's too easy to say that only those who learned at the feet of masters are true blues players, too elitist and close-minded in my opinion. It's also unrealistic.
Now I've seen enough of those guys who bring cases filled with Promasters and Meisterklasses and 1847s and top-of-the-line chromatics and several really nice mics and an expensive Harp Gear /Memphis Mini/vintage Bassman amp who can't play worth a shit
I don't let them bother me. It's always been that way.
Now…what am I talking about again?
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Call me J
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Mirco
182 posts
Jul 21, 2014
7:33 PM
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I've been playing harp for about a year and a half now. I want to be part of this tradition and am willing to work hard. I am currently taking some lessons from David Barrett, I play at jams 1-2 times per week, and I spend a lot of time listening to both recorded music and the great local guys in San Jose, CA.
Being that I am relatively new to all this, what should I do to AVOID being one of the bad players that kudzu and BluesJacketMan are referring to? I think that I'm on the right path. It's just a matter of time, right? Continue learning from David, playing out with other musicians, practicing, and keeping an attitude of learning.
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eharp
2185 posts
Jul 21, 2014
7:38 PM
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I am curious as to who the traditionalists are that you people are getting your schooling from.
At some point there will be none left alive. Will people looking to become real players then have to talk/learn from those that learned from the masters? Sort of a diluted drink from the past, isn't it?
I really don't understand how the expense of the equipment has anything to do with this, either. Nor age. I would think that being older and having more money would give those people a greater chance to learn from the masters.
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Littoral
1124 posts
Jul 21, 2014
8:51 PM
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I love this conversation.
But (again) I don't think it's new. I'm certainly not attempting to dismiss the value of the observation(s), they're really important. I just don't think they're unique in any significant way now as opposed to most any previous decade/generation.
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Thievin' Heathen
342 posts
Jul 21, 2014
9:07 PM
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Hey, I'm that middle aged white guy. Some days I have the cubicle blues, some days I have the commuter blues, and other days I just revel in the fact that the money I make from commuting to my cubicle probably puts me in the upper 4 percentile of highest paid harmonica players of all time. We are the market that makes Lee Oskars, Manjis, Crossovers, and all those SS Seydels viable developments. Times change. I don't think we have an over abundance of posers, but I will concede there is no shortage of less than stellar players out there. I among them. I will not be self producing any blues projects in search of myself, delusional and disposable income is a rare combination, but I will indulge my obsession in every aspect at every opportunity. In reverent observance to some genre before my time? Maybe, but I would be much happier if I could play some Duane Allman licks.
I agree there is an absence of connection to the beginnings of the art, but never before has there been so much access. I think I am very fortunate to be living during this harmonica renaissance. 30 years ago I was in a vacuum.
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jnorem
422 posts
Jul 21, 2014
9:15 PM
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I don't get the apparent animosity for "schooled musicians". What does that have to do with anything? Yes, some musicians go to music school. I myself went to music school. Does that disqualify me as a blues player?
I mean, it's a bit silly, isn't it? Can we put that one to rest?
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Call me J
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BluesJacketman
183 posts
Jul 21, 2014
9:23 PM
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Its not just against all schooled musicians. Its against the schooled who go around acting like know-it-alls with attitude.
I took a few music classes in college and got to know 2 of the top jazz guitar players there. They were really nice guys to me but the way they thought about music was so one sided it got annoying. And when you jammed with them it was all about them, not how they could enhance the song.
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nacoran
7871 posts
Jul 21, 2014
9:25 PM
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There is a little bit of a catch 22 here. If you can't get the sound from the pages in a magazine, as they would say, then you have to go out and play, and if you don't have 'it' yet, then you are going to sound like some middle aged white guy. I know my return to music after being in choirs from high school through college, was after years away from performing anywhere but in front of anyone except the people in the back seat of my car.
I probably play out a lot less because I've seen that guy out there who thinks he's a lot better than he is. I've also seen people who suck when I first see them who get better as time goes by. How I'll think about them has more to do with their attitude than their current level of ability.
A few performers spring to mind based on this thread:
A guy who used to play at an open mic I frequented (as a spectator, before I'd really taken up harp). He'd show up and get first on the list, play the same few songs (very well, but always the same few songs). He'd pack up and leave. He never stayed around to listen to anyone else. One time he yelled at my friend because he had his camera out. He was, "You better not be recording me". (My friend was actually just testing his camera to get it set for his own performance.) We ridiculed this guy and never had anything nice to say about him.
A guy who used to show up and sweat buckets and sing with a broken, nervous voice. He was learning. We sometimes dreaded listening to him, but we were always polite.
A young guy who wanted to rap. He asked if anyone knew how to beatbox. One guy nervously raised his hand and said, 'I used to, but I wasn't great, and I'm not great'. The rapper said sure, that will do. The performance didn't go well. All things considered it was as much that the rapper wasn't very good as the beatboxer wasn't very good. At the end the rapper turned to the beatboxer and said, basically, you suck, with the mic still live. You could see all the helpful people who might have gone up and done backing for him decide right there he wasn't worth it. The beatboxer, even although he wasn't great, got to go up and sing with other acts.
(Of course, for treating fans well, the title has to go to one beatboxer... I'd tried to help a guy out who was starting out in music despite the fact that he had some emotional problems. Anyway, the strange guy turned out to be a little violent and obsessive and started stalking me and my friends. Eventually, it required getting the police involved right at the open mic. The beatboxer, even though we'd only talked a couple time, offered to kick the other guys ass for us. Nothing makes your fans appreciative like offering to kick someone's ass for them. Fortunately, the police managed to get it through the guys head that he needed to leave us alone, and the ass kicking wasn't necessary. (I'm a pretty big guy and probably could have handled it, but it was nice to know someone had our back. Pays to treat the band good.) :)
So, back to learning the blues, how do you not be the guy who doesn't have it, if you have to play out to get it, but if you don't have it and you play out you are that guy?
One thing I've noticed is that places like this forum seem to be a hard place to deliver bad news to someone. It's hard to find the balance constructive advice and ripping someone's heart out. I often learn as much from listening to bad playing as good. You learn what not to do. But you learn a lot more if someone better than you can sit down point things out. It seems if someone isn't good we are afraid to hurt their feelings (I've certainly posted a few things where I've felt people held back). Maybe some good players could record some examples of bad playing and critique it? No one gets hurt.
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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nacoran
7872 posts
Jul 21, 2014
9:29 PM
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(I wish there was a feature where you just pressed a button and could record a clip and it would auto-post. It would be amazing to be able to post something and hear an expert actually demonstrate what could be done differently. I guess that's what Skype lessons are for, although at that point only one person is getting the benefit of the lesson. I bet if you could get a talented rookie and a seasoned teacher to record their skype sessions, with a little bit of editing, it might make an interesting web series.)
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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Mirco
184 posts
Jul 21, 2014
9:37 PM
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Actually, narcoran, David Barrett has something similar to that on his website. He posts videos of his private students as they work through his material. It's useful in that they often ask the same questions I would, and it's encouraging to see that they have the same struggles.
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Barley Nectar
444 posts
Jul 21, 2014
9:50 PM
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Well J, I for one, have great respect for schooled musicians. They can talk the language of music. I can not. Don't let the "Harp Snobs" get you down. Just go out and HAVE FUN!...BN
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jnorem
423 posts
Jul 21, 2014
10:59 PM
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Thanks, Barley.
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Call me J
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