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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
changing my mind about traditionalism
changing my mind about traditionalism
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The Iceman
1850 posts
Jul 24, 2014
11:43 AM
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"Devil's Advocate" J...
Perhaps "essential" is not the best adjective...
Substitute "beneficial" or "valuable".
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The Iceman
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Ted Burke
83 posts
Jul 24, 2014
11:48 AM
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I do believe that one can learn the feeling and the craft of the blues and make legitimate, moving, innovative blues music mostly from listening to recordings and attempting to emulate what's being heard. Unlike a good many graduate students who attended college the same time I did, I believe in the metaphysics of presence, which means, simply, that great music, great art, great novels and the like embody the virtues and nuanaces of the artists who made them and that those qualities can be transmitted to others who are likewise interested in expressing their emotions and experience in ways more beautiful than snippy complaints. I can only speak of my own experience, of course, but once I heard Butterfield, my choice was made for a life time. What is essential for a blues harmonica player to get to the level of conveying great emotion through an original take on familiar blues structures is to play, play, play and play again; if the student is determined , the path will be cleared.
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jnorem
439 posts
Jul 24, 2014
1:47 PM
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Great post, Ted.
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Call me J
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tbirdflier
55 posts
Jul 24, 2014
6:06 PM
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EVERYTHING changes as time goes by, nothing is sacred, all things change with time. Music is not sheltered from the passage of time and changing ways.
Every time I play a tune I've played many times before, I never play it exactly the same way every time. It's living in the moment and I love that fact!
Playing with others in a jam, yes, understand the groove, it's a core value that must be understood and followed. Add to the music, don't subtract from it, when your solo comes along go for it and then go back to the groove and follow the flow. Amen!
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jnorem
441 posts
Jul 24, 2014
8:23 PM
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After all this I think it's pretty much evident that one can become a good blues musician from intent, desire and hard work alone, since no one has spoken up to defend the spending-quality-time-with-an-established-master-is-essential position.
There's no discounting plain old human ingenuity. Is there?
Sure, it's nice if you were fortunate enough to spend time with an old blues master. It must have made quite the impression, a memory to last a lifetime. But essential? Hardly.
Can we bury that myth now?
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Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on Jul 24, 2014 8:35 PM
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Gipsy
81 posts
Jul 24, 2014
11:06 PM
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Check out the French word TERROIR. It mainly applies to wine. For me it could equally apply to the human condition in general, and in particular to music of any genre, but the blues in particular. IMVHO it seems to sum up a lot of what peeps have been trying to say but in one word.
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The Iceman
1851 posts
Jul 25, 2014
5:46 AM
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"Devil's Advocate" J...
Perhaps "essential" is not the best adjective...
Substitute "beneficial" or "valuable".
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The Iceman
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jnorem
444 posts
Jul 25, 2014
11:10 AM
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@Iceman: I'm guessing that we all have beneficial and valuable experiences on our paths to becoming musicians, no?
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Call me J
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nacoran
7881 posts
Jul 25, 2014
1:30 PM
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Okay, a little late to the thread, but I found this article interesting, on autodidactic learning.
Ed Tech Promoters Need to Realize We're Not All Audodicacts
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Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
First Post- May 8, 2009
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walterharp
1472 posts
Jul 25, 2014
4:06 PM
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weird, the thread started about listening to traditional approaches, and turned into who is your teacher.
got me, in part, to get the first music lesson in 42 years.. but with a teacher who might be considered a non-traditionalist!
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kudzurunner
4806 posts
Jul 25, 2014
6:02 PM
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Here's what Darren Watson wrote in answer to my question.
"Yes, I have met some wonderful musicians in my 30-odd years of playing here and in Australia. Mostly opening for 'em. I did play with Billy Boy Arnold which was great fun and we got on really well but I wouldn't call the time we spent talking about John Lee Wiliamson mentoring exactly. More shooting the shit and laughing. He was a bit of a mean old man when he first arrived, I could almost see him thinking "Oh no, not ANOTHER awful white, know-nothing, no-feel pickup band!" ha ha, but once he found out we could play it was all good. He's got some great stories. Also had a great time touring as support to Koko Taylor when I was a YOUNG man in the late 80s. Her live guitarist of the time (the late) Eddie King was great to hang with for a week or so. Again though, we didn't really talk about guitar much or jam at all. Just the hang. It was the first time I noticed the fingerstyle thing working in a band environment though.... wouldn't have known that from a record I guess.
"But what I know I have gleaned from records mostly. That and being blessed with a fair amount of natural ability vocally I guess. There are some real bad singers in this business whose vocals seem to exist just to fill the gaps between interminable solos. For me the song is the deal. I continue to work on that . . . whether it be interpreting or creating new stuff.
"And there's certainly no one local that has really 'mentored' me. I have a few great friends here in Wellington who share the same passion who I have played with on and off for 30 years or so - so we kind of encouraged and pushed each other to do it right. I know a lot of folks who have been put off blues music for life by being subjected to sub-par SRV and T-Birds covers, or even worse the kind of bogan Brit-flavoured blues-rock favoured by some 'biker types' around here... played sans feel and subtlety. Or Delta blues reduced to polite folk music. I wanted to redress the balance. Ha ha who knows if I'm succeeding, but I sure try."
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kudzurunner
4807 posts
Jul 25, 2014
6:06 PM
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jnorem: I'm curious: Who was your teacher or mentor? What real-life person, I mean? Did you have somebody like that? From the position you're arguing, it's a good bet that you didn't have somebody like that--since my experience tells me that people who have had important teachers--in-person teachers--make a point of honoring them publicly. But perhaps you, too, had an important mentor, somebody without whom your playing wouldn't be as deep or wide or powerful. I've learned to ask people about such things, not make assumptions.
Please share a little more about your own learning process.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 25, 2014 6:08 PM
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jnorem
447 posts
Jul 25, 2014
7:08 PM
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Hi Adam. I did not have a harmonica teacher/mentor, I never did. I was already a pretty good drummer for a kid, and a friend of mine that I played with had the first Butterfield Blues Band album, which I heard one afternoon at his house. He always had the coolest new albums. And just like that I wanted to play harp. That damn record changed my life. This was in 1968, I think. I was 15, and suddenly I was hearing harp solos in my head.
At that time Chess was releasing a lot of old recordings done up in compilation albums, and I got "Hate To See You Go", "Bummer Road", "Chicago Bound"; and I read about "Fathers and Sons" in Rolling Stone so I got that too. Those four albums were my teacher and mentor, particularly "Hate To See You Go." That record devastated me, and I learned every harp lick on it.
I was never without a harmonica, I played it when I was with my friends, I played it to girls, I played it at school, and soon I had a little group of guys who wanted to play blues music, and we all learned from listening to those records.
Apart from that it was practice, all the time, practice practice practice. I was just a kid, so I could do that. I was rarely not playing the harmonica, and my friends encouraged me and I was playing in little teenage blues bands, on the lookout for more blues records when I had some money and just immersing myself in the music. The music gave me a sanctuary, a place to go, to get away from my screwed up alcoholic father and school and pimples and awkwardness; when I played my blues records I was away from all that bullshit, I was cool and safe and It was the first time in my life that I was in love.
I felt blues welcome me, include me, I felt a sense of home that I'd never felt before, and I want blues to be like that for everyone who falls in love with the music like I did. I don't want to see an arbitrary system of points to score before anyone can join this world, I want to welcome all who enter here. I remember how it was. You know that was the most magical time of my life. Little Walter, Rice Miller, Paul Butterfield, Jimmy Rogers and Muddy Waters were the guys I'd go to just to feel safe and relaxed, see what I mean? That's where I wanted to live, and I want it to be like that for everyone who ventures this way.
And please, Adam, call me J. All my friends do.
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Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on Jul 25, 2014 7:33 PM
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Goldbrick
559 posts
Jul 25, 2014
7:22 PM
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Very nice, J.
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jnorem
448 posts
Jul 25, 2014
7:32 PM
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Hey, thank you Goldbrick.
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Call me J
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waltertore
2704 posts
Jul 25, 2014
7:41 PM
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J: Your story sounds much like mine and in the same era as well. Naturally this drive took me to hearing those guys live, which led to hanging in the clubs they played, that led to getting to know them, that led to playing/living with them,moving around the country/world to be in the scene, and doing it full time for 20 years until other things called me in a different direction. What kept you from taking it to this level if your love was so strong for the music as a player? Live music was dying and I was witnessing the Austin scene die before my eyes in the late 80's. Luckily my current passion was lit at the time - becoming a special education teacher. Music remains the root to my sanity and I continue to play as much or more as ever in my studio. Those years with the blues guys still inspires me like it was happening yesterday and all those wonderful days come to me each time I sit down to record my spontaneous music. Louisiana Red, who I lived with as a teen and maintained a 30 year relationship with, died a while ago. With his passing I think the only old guys I use to play with that are left are Sonny Rhodes, Buddy Guy, Frankie Lee, Charlie Musselwhite. The crop of wilson, estrin, hummel, and such and such are more peers than old guys to me or I am I now an old guy too :) ?
What Darren wrote to Adam stated that he just talked with those guys. That was a huge part of the mentorship. They never talked of gear and such like people do here. Their clothes and car was more a priority than the shape of their instruments. I remember my friend was managing Otis Rush. He was also a world class luthier and one day told me to try this red semi hollow body guitar on his bench. I couldn't get a decent note out of it. Guess whose guitar it was? Otis's. He finally let my friend take it to restore it. Many of the greats never owned an amp regularly. Their way of doing music was as much about image as skills. I knew one guy who had a complete line of wild womans dresses that matched his suits. He would find beautiful women, loan them the dress, and have them sit at his table. Today's players tend to be too sterile for me. No mistakes, everything perfect. That is not the sound that turned me on as a kid and still does. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
my videos
Last Edited by waltertore on Jul 25, 2014 8:08 PM
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jnorem
449 posts
Jul 25, 2014
8:18 PM
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Why didn't I do the same thing you did? Because I'm not you.
It's just peachy keen that you got to do blah-blah. Let me tell you something, Walter: you didn't get to do any of the stuff I did, because you're not me.
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Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on Jul 25, 2014 8:33 PM
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waltertore
2705 posts
Jul 25, 2014
8:24 PM
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J: I don't understand your response. I figured with your post about your love for music and the era it took place in, it would be a natural for you to persue the guys you loved on records. I never meant to refer your life should mirror mine. It was simply what many did in those days who found music through records because live music was so vibrant and the greats so easily accessible. My blah-blah is simply the life I led. I like the "kid" part though. It made these old bones feel good and the gray hair not so gray :-) Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
my videos
Last Edited by waltertore on Jul 25, 2014 8:32 PM
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jnorem
450 posts
Jul 25, 2014
8:31 PM
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Walter, why do you think I never "pursued the guys I loved on records?" I did! Everyone did! It's just that I don't feel I need to bolster my credibility by talking about what famous black blues players I've met. What does it accomplish, what does it matter. I'm the one who has to get up and play, not them.
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Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on Jul 25, 2014 8:34 PM
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waltertore
2706 posts
Jul 25, 2014
8:39 PM
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J: The stories I share are not meant to bolster my credibility but are simply the life I led, the same as a person that posts a video of themself playing to a jam track or a video of a performance they did at an open mic. Historically any artistan endeavor has been taught through mentorship. That is rapidly dying with the internet. I am thankful I learned the way I did. I have no desire to do music full time anymore and have no agenda other than to share stories that will die with me unless I share them and I figure a blues forum is a good place to share such things. If my stories about my experiences with the blues legends offend I really don't know what to say. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
my videos
Last Edited by waltertore on Jul 25, 2014 8:45 PM
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jnorem
451 posts
Jul 25, 2014
8:55 PM
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Okay, so what were you taught? I keep reading guys saying they learned so much from their mentorships with blues masters, but no one ever says what it is they were taught. It seems to me that if it's such important stuff you'd naturally want to share it.
So. What did you learn the way you did? Please tell us before you die and that knowledge is gone forever.
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Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on Jul 25, 2014 8:59 PM
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eharp
2198 posts
Jul 25, 2014
9:15 PM
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I would think that a sense of responsibility from people that learned from the masters to pass on what they learned. Especially when they see the internet destroying the old ways.
Of course all we can hope for is stories since some have lost the need or desire to live the old life.
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waltertore
2707 posts
Jul 25, 2014
9:17 PM
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J: What I learned is the spirit of the music that can only come from human interaction with someone that learned it the same way from an elder. It is a continum that goes back to the beginning of music that has an elder passing it on to a youngster. Seeing how they talk, walk, do life, move, approach music/life is as important in learning as is learning the notes. It is like any apprentenship and there is no other way to get it. People can learn to be technically great in isolation but the thing you can't physically hold/touch is the stuff you learn from living with someone and that is the stuff I am talking about. For those of us that learned this way it is a knee jerk impulse to continue the continium. If things go as they should in this experience one takes this stuff and turns it their own way creating their own sound. I have no desire to do copies of the stuff I did with Lightning Hopkins, Albert Collins, Louisiana Red, and all the other guys I spent time onstage with. There are a million clones out there and being a generic player is of no interest to me. I remember Lightning Hopkins speaking one night on this subject. He said there is only 1 Lightning and when he is in town the people will come to see him and not the imatators. What I do get from those days are flashes of them coming through me that comes out at times. I never know know when it will happen. It is like they are playing and I am watching. That certain moment when he was playing a certain note in a room with a certain vibe, after a round of drinks, etc. It all comes back like it was happening all over again. This stuff can only happen from being a part of their lives. No records or videos can make that happen. It is the way it was forever until recently. I saw Ralph Stanley a few months ago. He had a teenager traveling with him. He told me he always has carries a youngster that wants to learn. His band is all acoustic so they don't need a roadie. This kid was carried by ralph with food/lodging because he feel the need to continue the way he learned. I do the same to anyone who shows up at my door with a true passion for learning. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
my videos
Last Edited by waltertore on Jul 25, 2014 9:20 PM
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JustFuya
363 posts
Jul 25, 2014
10:01 PM
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I appreciate all the stories I read on this site. Credentials are what they are. Experience animates them and I love the tales. When paths intersect it's exciting and life changing at times but ultimately we choose our own way.
I don't see cause for argument here. Some of us have rubbed shoulders with our heroes. Some have not. BFD [you are not in dead water if you have not]. If you have been fortunate to sit down and BS [converse] with one of the greats you will come away knowing one thing. We are all human.
I have one question for fans. Did you ask for advice and an autograph or did you ask how his family is doing?
Edited to clarify acronyms.
Last Edited by JustFuya on Jul 26, 2014 2:59 PM
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Gipsy
82 posts
Jul 25, 2014
11:43 PM
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@jnorem. Really well put.
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waltertore
2708 posts
Jul 26, 2014
6:40 AM
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justfuya: Maybe it is a language thing/generation gap issue that I am misunderstanding. For my generation to use BFD and BS means that it is no big thing and basically a put down of the experience. If it isn't a BFD (as you stated)to have mentored under a legend(s) I don't know what is. I didn't BS (as you stated) with the blues greats. I was driven to find them. Helping Sonny Terry get around to his NYC gigs led to all kinds of conversations of family, life, death. Technical music conversations never happened with those guys like it does here. Life was more of the talk. If mentoring under a master is just a casual BFD thing I feel sorry for where our culture is going. Asking for an autograph or photo with one of the greats was almost always a sure fire way to not get close to them. They would go on auto pilot when this happened. Some guy would come backstage say how much they love their music, ask for a picture/autograph and then leave asap to hang it on their wall and tell everyone what great friends they were. I have no photos like this only gig photos people took and gave me. I don't have many because back then a camera was a major affair and when you are traveling by the time it was developed you were long gone. Often you would get them on return gigs sometimes years later. The world has changed in so many ways. This is just another example of how easy it now is to document stuff and how hard it was back then. A video camera was a thing hardly a soul owned much like owning a home studio was only for the rich and famous. Now if one has hundred of thousand views of one of their youtube it can translate to not even one gig offer via it. Back when I was playing if someone had hundred thousands of people watching them in a year they would be at the Rolling Stones level of fame...... Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
my videos
Last Edited by waltertore on Jul 26, 2014 6:55 AM
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kudzurunner
4808 posts
Jul 26, 2014
9:43 AM
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Thanks, J. That's a great accounting of a learning process, and an honest one. If this thread or any of the posts in it serve somehow to dissuade anybody from picking up a harmonica and finding their place in the world with it, that's wouldn't be a good idea. It sounds as though you had a deep encounter with the music, and that's what counts. I was urging people to do that. The human connection with mentors and elders is one way of achieving that, but the sort of passionate, attentive response to recorded music that you describe is, I think, also a key element of the process for many of us. (Robert Johnson certainly spent a lot of time listening to and learning from the blues recordings of his own day.) My worry, actually, is that YouTube ends up taking attention away from the deep listening part of the equation.
One part of having a mentor, at least of the Old School variety, is that they aren't, weren't, always nice people--or at least one lesson they taught is that people who play the blues well and live the blues aren't always sweet-tempered people. 99% of my YouTube videos were recorded in the guise of Friendly Adam (so to speak), but I did record one video where I modeled a much harder character--I slapped the camera at a couple of points, as though it were an inattentive student--and I'm surprised by how many people seem to have learned really well from that guy.
The elders and mentors, BTW, don't have to be black. They may have and almost certainly were that in the old days, but now we live in a world filled with crusty older white blues players with decades of gigging experience under their belts, and they've got a lot to teach, too. Not just white guys. There are blues elders in many part of the world, and they're worth seeking out.
waltertore is absolutely right about the fact that the black elders he knew were not particularly concerned with gear in the way that many here seem to be. This is, I think, mostly a matter of expediency. Blues people back in the day didn't have a lot of money for new gear. Stuff was always getting stolen. They were playing a lot of gigs and beating stuff into the ground. Sometimes instruments needed to be pawned. The survivor, the pro, was the person who could play anything--or who could build his own instrument.
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tmf714
2662 posts
Jul 26, 2014
10:14 AM
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From harp-l:
Nice work by Dennis Gruenling playing over a "Mojo" groove:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHJrr_I9v04. There's always a surprise or
two in his solos; stuff you would never hear anybody else doing. Made me
think of a quote I ran across recently: "If a genuinely individual
expression comes inside a familiar-sounding package, that shouldn't reduce
its value."
Mick Zaklan
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tmf714
2663 posts
Jul 26, 2014
10:15 AM
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tmf714
2664 posts
Jul 26, 2014
10:17 AM
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Rod passing the torch:
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JustFuya
365 posts
Jul 26, 2014
10:38 AM
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waltertore: Misunderstanding. You make my point.
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kudzurunner
4809 posts
Jul 26, 2014
11:32 AM
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Here's a new video I made about some of the issues discussed in this thread. It takes its time rather than moving quickly in the bam-bam-bam video-age mode--and that was very much my intent.
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Littoral
1127 posts
Jul 26, 2014
1:59 PM
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Nice work (very). There's a lot to articulate and I would think different parts would, naturally, connect for different people. That may depend on where they are on the journey and that may also suggest why you've now made this video. I confess it was the James Bond : Blues Ethos that resonated with me. I began to mentally construct a continuum of actors/artists that could represent stages in the journey (Pauly Shore came to mind -oh my, The Knights Who Say Nit, Marcus Aurelius...).
Again, nice work. Brave even.
Last Edited by Littoral on Jul 26, 2014 2:02 PM
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jnorem
453 posts
Jul 26, 2014
5:10 PM
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What kind of car was he driving?
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Call me J
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Frank
4936 posts
Jul 26, 2014
5:23 PM
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Who's he?
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The Iceman
1861 posts
Jul 26, 2014
5:53 PM
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Vicki and I used to hang with Jimmy Fields - 90 year old black career guitar player/singer. Met him at a farmers mkt where he played solo.
He played minstrel shows as a young buck and performed for 70 years.
He taught me to listen more than play when on the bandstand. He also said "no matter how good or bad the band, put a pretty girl out front and you'll bring the house down".
I also learned a lot about playing music at Augusta Heritage Blues Week, where a lot of old musicians came to teach. Watching them was an education in itself - the way they carried themselves, how they related to the audience, etc.
In the funk band, I learned not to rely on counting the beats, but learn how to feel the groove.
So, hangin' with these types of mentors did add to my musical education in ways that weren't available to me via listening to records or studying books.
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The Iceman
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Thievin' Heathen
350 posts
Jul 27, 2014
10:03 AM
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I met James Cotton once. I could say it changed my life, but I still got up and went to work the next day. That's the essence of the blues. White boy cubicle blues, not cotton pickin.
Should I have left my wife & kid and followed him to the next show? Would that be dedication or stalking?
I played/jammed on a stage in HI one night with Phil McCormack. If I hadn't shown up for work the next morning NIS would have tracked me down and thrown me in the brig.
I guess I missed my 2 opportunities for mentoring. 2 perfect opportunities, and I failed to seize them. The must have been more. No dedication.
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Chris L
54 posts
Jul 27, 2014
10:44 AM
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Adam: re. Respect the blues. I hear you! The road to mastery of the instrument is neither quick nor easy. The road of a professional performer is more difficult still. But please don't forget, the "dark side" you mention lies not in your seven years of giving. The dark side is just an aspect of all of our humanness, laziness, missing the point, trivializing other's struggles, mistaking the part for the whole, ego, etc. etc. I just want to express my gratitude for the encouragement and insights I have drawn from your lessons over the last 3-4 years of my learning this fascinating little instrument and the blues ethos in which it found its fullest expression. Thanks again, Adam.
I'd also like to express my gratitude for the insights and encouragement I have received from members of this on line community over the past year. I have been astonished that a hobbyist like myself can ask a question and receive helpful personal responses from professionals and experts who have paid a lifetime of "dues".
If this thread represents a need for hobbyists, amateurs and sub-pros to have their egos subdued or chastened by the pros, message received! I am not necessarily thrilled with everything that has been said, but message received, and thank you all for contributing! :)
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kudzurunner
4813 posts
Jul 27, 2014
7:14 PM
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Thanks, Chris.
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Honkin On Bobo
1216 posts
Jul 28, 2014
10:52 AM
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"The music gave me a sanctuary, a place to go, to get away from my screwed up alcoholic father and school and pimples and awkwardness; when I played my blues records I was away from all that bullshit, I was cool and safe and It was the first time in my life that I was in love.
I felt blues welcome me, include me, I felt a sense of home that I'd never felt before, and I want blues to be like that for everyone who falls in love with the music like I did. I don't want to see an arbitrary system of points to score before anyone can join this world, I want to welcome all who enter here. I remember how it was. You know that was the most magical time of my life. Little Walter, Rice Miller, Paul Butterfield, Jimmy Rogers and Muddy Waters were the guys I'd go to just to feel safe and relaxed, see what I mean? That's where I wanted to live, and I want it to be like that for everyone who ventures this way."
-jnorem
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Hey j, that's some of the best writing I've read on this forum (and I been around a while).
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jnorem
462 posts
Jul 28, 2014
10:58 AM
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Why, thank you Bo.
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Call me J
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barbequebob
2658 posts
Jul 28, 2014
11:02 AM
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Adam, your post about those older black musicians is absolutely true. Some of the were anything but nice people and some were among the nicest you'd ever meet.
Elders, both black as well as white, certainly do have experiences that they can teach are often hard, but valuable lessons needed to be passed down, and a number of those lessons they learned often came the hard way and you do learn about what to watch out for and then some, and it isn't just about the music, but also the business side of music as well along with important life lessons.
Waltertore's experiences about the blues elders and gear is the exact same thing I experienced as well and it has never ceased to amaze me how many times younger musicians think I'm totally BS'ing them whenever I say that those guys like a Big Walter Horton were NEVER gear freaks and used whatever was available.
There's always stuff you have to learn on your own, often times the hard way being the best but at the same time, the most brutal of all teachers, but having someone like a Jimmy Rogers as a mentor for me, as an example, can only help you and lucky for me, he was one of the nicest people I've ever met and willing to show you anything and some of them were hardly that at all.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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waltertore
2718 posts
Jul 28, 2014
12:08 PM
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Barbeque Bob: I think most players today are so hung up on the actual technical ins and outs that they miss the stuff the old guys had in spades- how to walk big and tall in a small spectrum of the music universe. That is IMO 90% of being a musician in the sense of what being an old school blues musician is about. The 10% is the playing of the instrument. They owned a small nitch of the spectrum and were able to express themselves and make it groove all night. Conversely, today most players own nothing of the musical spectrum and instead spend their learning time on splattering the entire spectrum. That leads to never having ones own sound. For me, if you can't identify the player in a few seconds of listening, they have no sound of their own, and that is the sound of today. There are millions of players out there today that will never make it to a major stage setting that are technically darn near perfect but they lack anything more than that and that unto itself is boring when performing in a live setting. Back in our day these kind of players where known as top 40 players who played to audiences that were not listening to them but to the songs the top 40 bands were copying. Look at Jimmy Reed, Howling Wolf, Junior Wells, Buster Brown, and guys of that playing level. Technically they are very simple and limited but coupled with their presence it results in being a legend. Todays players tend to bore me with their gear obsessed perfect playing. Raw can be smooth as silk (T Bone Walker, Magic Sam)if you got it right. Boy have things changed! If we were in a room with Junior Wells, Big Walter, Lightning Hopkins, Sonny Terry, the amount of gear talk would take up about 1% of the conversation and that would probably be- do you have a g harp I could borrow for my set, or my guitar is busted can I use yours........ Today when I get around a bunch of musicians backstage at a festival 90% of the talk is on gear and I fade out of that scene. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
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Last Edited by waltertore on Jul 28, 2014 1:47 PM
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Goldbrick
568 posts
Jul 28, 2014
12:38 PM
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for the gear heads:
Paul McCartney: I'm one of the least technical people you're likely to meet. I went into a guitar shop in America a few years ago and some guy said "What kind of bass strings do you use, Paul?" I said, "Long shiny ones". "
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jnorem
464 posts
Jul 28, 2014
3:09 PM
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Walter - only you can make yourself feel big and tall, regardless of the spectrum or universe or whose pocket you lived in for however long it was. Only your own personal achievements can do that, no one can do the work for you.
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Call me J
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LSC
664 posts
Jul 28, 2014
3:45 PM
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J said that no one has mentioned what they learned from a "mentor" or hanging around any of the originators. Now I've had contact with some old school players over the years but never spent any great length of time or could say anyone mentored me. Having said that I will submit the following.
James Cotton after hearing me jam with Bobby Anderson and Luther Tucker in the dressing room of the old Hollywood Palladium when I didn't know 3rd position from missionary position said, "I can hear who you're listening to. Don't try and sound like them. Sound like you." I've never considered myself on of the best players around. Loads of guys can kick my ass seven days from Sunday but lately I've come to realize that I sound like me. I've got my own style and it's a good one. It works and on most days I can hang with anyone but I'm still often dissatisfied and still try and improve and get better even after over four decades of playing these little buggers.
Jerry Portnoy responding to a comment I made to him regarding what I had learned from him about the nuances of a slow blues, "This guy gets it."
RE: Some of Walter's comments about the old school guys being not at all concerned with gear and not banging on about various techniques. So true. I heard James Cotton walk up on Johnny Winter's stage at Antone's, pull a harp out of his pocket, and play down a vocal mic on "Hoochie Coochie Man" and produce the biggest tone I had ever heard in my life. It was like the voice of God. He blew the roof off and at the end just put the harp back in his pocket and ambled off the stage knowing full well what he had just done.
And lastly this, again from Jerry Portnoy. When asked in an interview to discuss his microphone technique he simply replied, "Try not to drop it."
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LSC
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LSC
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Joe_L
2491 posts
Jul 29, 2014
7:52 AM
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Adam - I blame blues jams for the lack of quality. Nobody really has to pay their dues before they are allowed to step on stage. It's the equivalent of karaoke night. Thirty years ago, people were doing their homework. They went to shows and listened to a lot of music. They learned from it. People had respect for the music and the tradition. Getting on stage was something you had to earn.
BluesJacketman - I resemble that guy you described. Don't judge a book by its cover. There are several of us out there. Some of us can play. You had better bring your A game. You may have to eat those words. If you live long enough, you may be that old guy.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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kudzurunner
4824 posts
Jul 29, 2014
9:21 AM
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Your insight about jam sessions may be right, Joe. And if you're right, I suppose that those of us who have made money putting on and teaching at blues harmonica jam camps (the term is Jon Gindick's) need to accept some of the blame. Blame isn't quite right right word; responsibility might be a better word. Everybody is a jammer these days--or can be, if they spend the money and show up at his camp, or Hill Country Harmonica. Everybody is a jammer. Get up and jam! Jon specifically encourages beginners, whose who may never have attended an actual jam session in an actual blues club, to break the ice at his camps. Everybody is a jammer, folks! The only thing you have to lose is your fear.
And there's something great about that attitude. Blues harmonica, as a discipline, has been pulled into the orbit of New Age self-realization. This weekend you might go fire-walking. Next weekend it's blues harmonica.
I'm exaggerating to make a point, but simply because I think you've got a great point. There's a hidden cost to pay for all this generalized fun and frolic. The shadow-side of "Everybody is a jammer!" is an overall downgrading of the complex, sometimes troubled, and definitely NOT touchy-feely art of blues harmonica. (Remember how John Lee Williamson, Big Walter, and Little Walter died: violently.)
Interestingly, serious distance runners, those who race to compete, have been complaining about exactly the same thing. It's inarguably clear that the world of distance racing, and especially marathoning, has been dumbed down--and slowed down. Races these days are far more often put on by charity organizations (raising money for breast cancer, or animal shelters, for example) than by running clubs, as in the old days. The average finishing time has slowed significantly. In many races I've been to, the actual WINNER of the race--i.e., the best runner of the day--has to wait until first, second, and third place trophies have been awarded to the males and females in every age-group categories, from under-10 to over-70. By the time the winner is given his trophy and money, two-thirds of the crowd has dissipated. That's sick, frankly. It's screwed up. But it's where our culture has gone. Everybody is a winner! Everybody gets a medal!
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 29, 2014 9:24 AM
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timeistight
1626 posts
Jul 29, 2014
9:32 AM
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"Remember how John Lee Williamson, Big Walter, and Little Walter died: violently."
Wikipedia says Big Walter died of heart failure. Is that incorrect?
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The Iceman
1871 posts
Jul 29, 2014
9:36 AM
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Everybody is a winner. Everybody gets a medal. Everybody is special.
Bad idea.
If everyone is a winner/special, logically it would lead to no one is a winner/special.
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The Iceman
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