Dirty-South Blues Harp Forum: For blues harmonica players, students, and fans

Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > changing my mind about traditionalism

changing my mind about traditionalism

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atty1chgo 1041 posts Aug 03, 2014 2:30 PM	@ Kingley - I don't know what town or neighborhood you live in (maybe you can enlighten us) - but I live in the Chicago area, and I have yet to go to a jam having "heard somebody (especially on harmonica) who can't even play a single note, let alone bend any notes and they proceed to blow and suck the living shit out the damn thing and play right on a vocal mic all over everything from beginning to end. What's even worse is that they then believe that they are in fact brilliant and really are a musician." And I have never heard someone who was not, in fact, a professional musician (especially a harp player) tell someone that they are a "bluesman". I think that there is more than a bit of exaggeration going on here. Or else, these events are occurring far from urban civilization. It just doesn't happen very often in this town, and there are some pretty damn good blues being played here.
Kingley 3661 posts Aug 03, 2014 4:17 PM	atty1chgo - I live in the North West of the UK in a county called Lancashire. Most players here haven't got the faintest idea what blues really is. I have never heard anyone call themselves a "bluesman" and never said I had heard anyone say that. I used the term "musician". I can guarantee you that what I'm saying is no exaggeration at all. Living in Chicago you are luckier than most to be somewhere that is steeped in the history and culture of blues music. Similarly people like Joe L and Greg Heumann live in places where there is a thriving blues scene and a lot of seriously talented players. For most of us (especially those of us outside the USA) that simply isn't the case. In Lancashire where I live many players think that Gary Moore was the best blues musician that ever lived. The lack of knowledge of most players here about blues music would astound you. Luckily there are a small handful of people who have a good depth of knowledge and appreciation of blues music and I make them most of any time I can spend with them. I would post clips of one of the "better" (uses the term in the most sarcastic fashion possible) players, but I have no desire to embarrass them or open them up to ridicule on a public forum. Last Edited by Kingley on Aug 03, 2014 4:18 PM
Littoral 1132 posts Aug 03, 2014 5:38 PM	Joe L.,"Why don't you pick your favorite artist and Google them." (on compiling good interviews). Just Google it... A lot of what I HAVE found on-line is more often housed on sites that haves collections of interviews and many of the conversations are obscure. A search by artist doesn't always work when knowing the right media source would. A lot of really great stuff is out there on video that continues to get posted on the web and finding it isn't as simple as Google.
Goldbrick 582 posts Aug 03, 2014 5:53 PM	My English geography is a bit hazy- but isnt Liverpool in Lancashire county ? I guess Blackburn is too "Four thousand holes in Blackburn, Lancashire And though the holes were rather small They had to count them all" Of course that doesnt say anything about the current blues scene there.
jnorem 485 posts Aug 03, 2014 6:08 PM	You know, all this discussing doesn't change the reality that no matter what anyone may think about what's required to be good at anything, there will always be those who did it their own way and are great, and there will also be legions of those who never had a chance, no matter what proper conventions they followed. ---------- Call me J
Frank 5021 posts Aug 03, 2014 6:13 PM	As far as harmonica playing is concerned - 99% who did it "their own way" are the ones that folks unanimously agree here usually end up being fairly lousy players :)
jnorem 486 posts Aug 03, 2014 6:18 PM	Nothing gets by you, Frank. ---------- Call me J
Frank 5022 posts Aug 03, 2014 6:27 PM	But that don't mean the 99% who did'nt are any good either - the 1% are GOLDEN though :) Last Edited by Frank on Aug 03, 2014 6:30 PM
WailScholar 6 posts Aug 04, 2014 3:52 AM	There is a problem with the 'just google it, there's only one way' philosophy - it doesn't equip people with the means to apply what they may glean from an interview. Listening and copying is fine for those with the listening chops and the playing chops to understand and apply what they hear. Yet this is a very small minority of people. Most people flat don't have the ability to just hear and know (even w/ repetitions) what is happening in the music. How many times does somebody show up here to ask what key a song is in? How many times does somebody need to be told which harp to use? If someone cannot figure this out without guidance, they sure as hell are not going to be figuring out licks, much less subtleties. For me listening works great, but that is mostly due to a large amount of time learning how to listen to harmonica and translate what I hear. The ability to do that came from watching Adam's videos. That's despite having had an already good set of ears. Harmonica just defied logic for me, and the materials available made a huge difference. Now I'm in a position where I can listen and apply. It took about four years to get there. I had a similar experience with learning statistics. Sure, all the facts were right there at my fingertips. Yet those facts were incomprehensible without having someone to function as a translator to pick apart what each part of an equation meant, and what it's relationship to a larger meaning was. In short, the 'just listen and play' is great when you have the ability to do that. For most people, it just translates as 'guess I'll just keep playing folk tunes'
BronzeWailer 1370 posts Aug 04, 2014 4:15 AM	Good points, WailScholar. A live teacher has more experienced ears, can tell you what you are doing wrong and maybe show you how to fix it. There's no substitute and no way one-sided downloading from the net can compensate. BronzeWailer's YouTube
timeistight 1632 posts Aug 04, 2014 9:46 AM	Peter "Madcat" Ruth's Blues Harmonica Lessons with Big Walter Horton He never said anything about, "inhail, bend, draw, hole number. half-steps -- nothing! It was all: he'd play something and I'd try to repeat it. The first lesson was pretty rough, so I went home and I practiced for four months. Peter "Madcat" Ruth All the "blues mentor" stories I've heard are like this (or rougher: Junior Wells talked about Little Walter slapping him for messing up a lick). Listen and play then practice. No hand-holding. Last Edited by timeistight on Aug 04, 2014 10:36 AM
kudzurunner 4840 posts Aug 04, 2014 12:52 PM	WailScholar, I agree with pretty much everything you've written. In some sense you're saying in somewhat more theoretical terms what I tried to say in two or three of my posts. I'm probably as responsible as anybody else in the contemporary world for the unsystematic, generalized diffusion of blues harmonica knowledge. (This website, for what its worth, gets hits from 175 countries around the world.) My YouTube videos were never intended as a systematic presentation of that knowledge. Quite the reverse; they were impressionistic, intuitive. They were designed to fill the gaps in what other people--including David Barrett and Jon Gindick--were teaching. Neither of those master teachers, for example, did anything like my three-video sequence from the crossroads (the really, really dark videos in which I sketched out the Path for he/she who would really become a master of the instrument) or the video that talked about blues harmonica craft as soulcraft ("You're a warrior, lover, artist," etc.) But you're absolutely right: without system, education becomes piecemeal, and it almost certainly doesn't work in as thoroughgoing a way as it ideally should. There's one big hole in your theory, of course: the Old School was completely unsystematized. Nobody sat Junior Wells down and said, "Here's lesson #1." Of if they said, "Here's your first lesson," they made it a harsh lesson: give me your harp, buy me some scotch, not get lost, kid. That's what Sonny Boy did to Junior Wells. It hurt. It hurt. Junior Wells hurt for a long time. But later, after he learned a lot of hard lessons on his own, he thanked Sonny Boy. What made the Old School work was the mentoring process. The "lessons," such as they were, were presented in a performance and social context where the music, as a living breathing thing, was front and center, and where the trainee could see and feel that. That's what the YouTube model of blues harmonica education leaves out. You watch the video, some schmuck like Gussow or Gindick or Shellist or Ricci shows you some cool stuff, and the video is over. What's next? Watch the video again, I suppose. But only the talented and disciplined will take the knowledge presented in the video and integrate it with the knowledge they already possess, allowing it to be the (sequential) next step forward towards mastery. Also, unless the person making the videos stresses this fact, the sheer DAILYNESS of practice, the need for lots of woodshed time alone, the need for struggle, and the need for spiritual development--such as fucking up on the bandstand and resolving to keep going back after learning the necessary lessons--will go unspoken for. I try to speak for those values in the video that BBQ Bob posted. More is needed, though. Last Edited by kudzurunner on Aug 04, 2014 12:54 PM
barbequebob 2668 posts Aug 04, 2014 1:15 PM	There's only so much that videos and recordings are going to be able to teach you, with even considerably less in open jams (unless you're lucky to be in an area with both a thriiving scene along with jams that have actual REAL blues playing pros playing there where you have a chance to be mentored) and being around real blues musicians, especially those masters, you tend to learn things in ways not even recordings will teach you. I can still remember gigging with Jimmy Rogers and before we started the tour, we went over most of his tunes rally quick and the only tune we never did was My Last Meal, and so when someone in the audience requested it, I had to pay very close attention to him because he did it differently than the way he recorded it on Chess and having heard it done by another band as a sort of reference, I just followed him carefully and at the end of the set, Jimmy told me the way we did was the way he intended to record it with Big Walter Horton on harp, and besides blowing my mind, it was a lesson that one seldom learns from videos or recordings alone. Adam's paragraph in his last post about the old school is the 100% cold, hard, brutal truth and learning the music isn't something done in 10 minutes, 10 easy lessons, but from hard work. I've encountered far too many people who believe that if you learn a few things about blues, you suddenly know everything about the music, and anyone who thinks they know it just like that, for me, is nothing but a trash talking, know nothing fraud that I can easily expose in a heart beat. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte Last Edited by barbequebob on Aug 06, 2014 12:01 PM
didjcripey 786 posts Aug 04, 2014 2:39 PM	From some of these posts I get the impression that old school mentoring consisted primarily of knock you down, kick you out, go learn it for yourself. Do it right without any explanation or piss off. I don't see how this is better than what we have now. A common complaint seems to be about pretenders who talk big but have no respect or knowledge. I suspect that there were plenty of these in the old days too, and that if there are more now, it may be more a reflection of our culture and the times, than a result of easily accessible teaching material. ---------- Lucky Lester Last Edited by didjcripey on Aug 04, 2014 2:42 PM
waltertore 2734 posts Aug 04, 2014 3:00 PM	Lucky Lester: I didn't have a harsh experience with most of the greats. I lived with Louisiana Red and he was as kind a man as I ever met. He was more a father to me than my own father. Lightning Hopkins was known for his harsh words but never treated me but nice when I use to back him up at Tramps in NYC. Cool Papa was another one that was like a father to me and was the one who pushed me to playing guitar onstage. He simply handed it to me in the middle of a song one night and then sat down and cheered me on. Sonny Rhodes was another I spent tons of hours around that was nothing but kind. Sonny Terry was another kind soul. Albert Collins was the king of kind. Wilbert Harrision that put me in his band after he heard me playing my harp as I walked down the street was also very encouraging but could get real evil when too high which was too often. I could go on and on.... Bill Dicey was a jerk because he was scared of me and an alcoholic. I was just a teen and didn't understand that at the time and just wanted to be around him. I remember Missippi Johnny Waters was the same as Wilbert and usually real nice till he got too drunk. Junior Wells was always nice to me. So was Pee Wee Crayton. All in all I had mostly great experiences with the old guys. The few that were bitter and afraid I soon stopped hanging with. I was also a very different duck so to speak. I stood outside Tramps in NYC from 10am until Lightning Hopkins showed up for his show around 10pm. It was the dead of winter I greeted him at the door and said I just wanted to thank him for his music and how much it meant to me. He asked how long I was standing there and when I told him he laughed, took me by the arm and brought me up to the dressing room, pulled out a quart of seagrams, locked the door and we drank/talked and he asked me to play. He then told me I would be playing with him everytime he was in NY. The back up band came in and he treated them like dirt. Champion Jack Dupree took me onstage with him for his first USA gig in 25 years. The backup band said there were no more mics so he had me sit on his piano stool for the 2 nights and would slap the mic my way for harp solos. Red told Jack about me. they lived together in Germany. Roy Buchanan and I became good friends and he would have me play his guitar backstage to check on my progress. Johnny Littlejohn was another kind man who came by my house to hang out after a gig when I backed him up with Mark Naftlins Blues Review at the sleeping lady in fairfax, CA. I could go on and on. When a true master sees a student that is devoting their entire existance to learning the music always welcomes them. The jive talking guys they peg and treated them like dirt. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller my videos Now playing: Walter Tore's Spontobeat Last Edited by waltertore on Aug 04, 2014 3:06 PM
JInx 833 posts Aug 04, 2014 3:39 PM	We need fundie mental writing skills if we need to read a paragraph like that. - Last Edited by JInx on Aug 04, 2014 3:51 PM
Joe_L 2499 posts Aug 04, 2014 4:23 PM	Lucky Lester - In my case, I can tell you that I learned a lot from a variety of players on the scene in Chicago during the 80's. Most of my learning came from watching, observing and listening. After the show, I then picked up a harp put on records and tried to recreate what I observed / heard. I went out a lot and watched everyone that was on the scene. I spent a great deal of time trying to recreate various licks and tone by trial and error. There was no science to it. It didn't seem like work or practice. It was something that I was passionate about doing. I had the opportunity to talk to some of those guys, but in my eyes, they were stars. I had instances of being on stage before James Cotton, Sugar Blue and other great players. Each time, I left the stage demoralized, because I had an opportunity to have what I didn't know pointed out to me by watching them play the instrument. Not one of them was mean or nasty. In fact, everyone was really nice. That includes Sugar Blue who had a horrible reputation at that time. When I moved to California, RJ Mischo, Steve Freund and others really helped me out a lot. They didn't really teach me anything. They gave me an opportunity and some advice on music, but never anything about operating the instrument. It was assumed that you knew how to do that. I received one formal harp lesson from Billy Branch and he said it was going to be the only lesson he ever gave me. It was very simple. A musician always carries his instrument. Had I brought my harp, I would have had an opportunity to play with some fabulous players. There was teasing, testing and mild hazing along the way, but never anything mean spirited unless your don't have a sense of humor. They want to see what you know and figure out your limits. Most of these guys are completely cool as long as you know about them and you respect their work. ---------- The Blues Photo Gallery Last Edited by Joe_L on Aug 04, 2014 4:28 PM
Komuso 367 posts Aug 04, 2014 7:46 PM	@Timeistight "Listen and play then practice. No hand-holding. " That's actually how the traditional Japanese music teaching system works, in Shakuhachi and other instruments. (actually it's also how the martial arts training works, shodo, ikebana etc etc as well) First step is play exactly like teacher, then you can develop your own style. You all sit in a room, and students take turns sitting in front of the teacher doing their lesson. There's a couple of reasons for it, not all altruistic. 1. It ensures the traditional repertoire is passed on faithfully, so students are grounded in a solid body of traditional material that can be played faithfully 2. Immediate exposure to playing in front of other people, which is not a bad thing. 3. It's a very smart economic lock in system, as students are tied to a particular teacher (iemoto) and school (aka style) and pay $x every month for up to y lessons , no refunds. It works, but it's not the only way. It has pros and cons as well. It does ensure the tradition is taught faithfully, but it can also be a very inflexible system (and expensive - but good for teacher haha!) as it does not really incorporate new knowledge of teaching techniques, how we learn, or optimal focused practice methods to suit your personal context. I guess the modern Suzuki method (and some others) are based on this to some extent but taken to an extreme. Unstructured/semi-structured/structured osmosis learning is the core of many traditional styles, not specific to blues. Sure they work, but they are also at risk of dying if all the knowledge is locked in someones head and they die before it's passed on. In depth interviews, such as David Barrett's series and others, are a great way to capture a lot of this tacit knowledge which would otherwise be lost or only captured by lucky people who were physically able to get 1on1. Now we have video chat and people have access to many potential quality teachers who can do feedback learning in bite sized chunks. Then the question still comes back to: Why do you play music? Music doesn't always have to be about playing in a smokey bar to a sweaty crowd of hard drinking peeps, though that particular social context can be really fun. It's not the only reason to play music, on any instrument. But that's digressing. If your end goal, in the context of playing harmonica, is to play live (as a beer salesperson because isn't that what live musicians are reduced to now days anyway;-) then there are many more things you need to learn than just the technical aspects of playing blues ... as a lot of people have pointed out. ---------- Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream Last Edited by Komuso on Aug 05, 2014 2:03 AM
jnorem 487 posts Aug 04, 2014 10:38 PM	I'd like to put this up for consideration. If a harp player can play really well, knows how to work his gear and has it all together, conducts himself as a professional at all times and understands how to work with a band, but had never had any kind of mentorship at all, would it matter, if you were to find that out about him, would that be a deal killer? ---------- Call me J
Komuso 368 posts Aug 04, 2014 10:44 PM	Mentorship is a bonus (and great bragging rights) not a requirement at all. Q: Who mentored the mentors, especially the ones who pioneered stuff that hadn't been done before? oops! ---------- Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
jnorem 488 posts Aug 04, 2014 11:08 PM	Talking about mentorship really amounts to nothing more than a trip down memory lane for the person telling the story. I just don't believe that every single blues player in the top ranks of the music had the kind of one-on-one mentor relationship that's been described here. Hey, I met Muddy Waters when I was just a teenager. I played my harp for him, and he said he liked it. This was in his dressing room during intermission. But so what? It has nothing to do with the way I play. ---------- Call me J
didjcripey 787 posts Aug 05, 2014 12:31 AM	Thanks for your response Walter, I'm glad to hear it. My experiences with local legends has been the same; very friendly, kind and supportive. But that is in my small local scene on the other side of the planet, over the past fifteen years. I expect different people have had different experiences, and that is the impression that I get from some of the preceding posts, and blues lore in general. Rick Estrin says in his instructional DVD that 'sometimes people would tell you the wrong thing just to mess you up'. Being a great musician is no excuse for being an arsehole. Like you say: 'When a true master sees a student that is devoting their entire existance to learning the music always welcomes them' Thanks too Joe L. I learned much the same way, but for about twenty years I did not have the opportunity to see or hear any of the greats. I made almost no progress until the past ten or so years when almost the whole catalogue of recorded performances became available to watch for free on youtube. I realise its not the same as being there, but perhaps in some ways it was even better, being able to watch again and again to try and pick every little nuance and subtlety. My learning was greatly accelerated by the expert tuition of our own Gussow as well as Barrett. I am super critical of myself, think I have a good ear and am able to self correct. So perhaps I have had the best of both worlds. I have the give it all away mentorship of modern teachers (even though I've never met them). In my virtual world they have infinite patience, repeating a lesson, a phrase a description as many times as I want. I have 'seen' the greats, if only on a small screen. Their power and mojo moves me still. ---------- Lucky Lester
waltertore 2735 posts Aug 05, 2014 4:38 AM	Lucky Lester: I am glad you have had positive experiences as well. What Rick said is true. Bill Dicey told me so much wrong stuff I am lucky to still be alive (no lie- it went well beyond learning music). Most of these type guys were the ones that had skidded, all mixed up, and were addicted. The bottom line was one had to become part of the scene to gain real access to the top players. I am not talking a weekly show up at a jam. I am talking hanging with them outside of the clubs and being in the clubs everynight. Got a day job? Tough luck but that is what it took and I didn't get a solid nights sleep for almost 20 years. I regularly told guys that burst in on our break and wanted to immediately get up and jam this- "believe it or not I have played over 200 gigs a year for 20 years, had to move to 2 countries with not a dime in my pocket, lived illegally overseas always in fear of being deported, didn't know French from Turkish, lived coast to coast in the USA never knowing anyone when we got to new places to hopefully find a nitch, worked day jobs, lived hand to mouth, have no kids, no life outside this, no hobbies, don't own a house, have no health care, and this little stage and crowd is the summation of all that. So if you want to get up and play go through all this and you might be lucky enough to have been as lucky as me". It is about respect. If you show respect and prove you are devoted most all great musicians that learned through mentorship will open up to you. It is a spiritual thing that passes on the spirit. The notes, gear, etc, can be learned by anyone but that thing you can't touch is what is going to make you stand out. You might also call it "this music is my life". Obviously this upsets some people on the forum. I am sorry but there is no way to get around this kind of learning and being a hobbiest is fine but accept that. If it really bugs you refer to the quotation I posted here. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller my videos Now playing: Walter Tore's Spontobeat Last Edited by waltertore on Aug 05, 2014 4:42 AM
Komuso 369 posts Aug 05, 2014 5:21 AM	“As far as the business end of it, when you’re in a band, all you are is just a beer salesman,” Going Underground: Denver’s Indie Music Festival Wrestles with Corporate Ties ---------- Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
waltertore 2737 posts Aug 05, 2014 11:52 AM	This is a great example of mentorship. I posted this on the "lets work together" thread but figured it would fit here as well. I use to do this song as a teenager everynight when I played with Wilbert Harrison as well as Kansas City(his other big hit in the 50's). This is his song and was done as a 1 man band and millions have been made off it. He never got a dime off it or Kansas City, and lived in poverty/bordering on homelessness when I was with him. It kind of hits me wierd to see famous bands doing this song and making more for 1 show than Wilbert did in a year. Wilbert played the bass drum, guitar, and harp, on this song. He also played piano. I learned the 1 man band from him and this song was the biggest 1 man band hit to date as far as I know. Walter Here are some old 1 man band recordings I did in tribute to Wilbert. Without his mentorship I would never have been able to catch these grooves. wilbert harrison taught me the 1 man band wilbert harrison ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller my videos Now playing: Walter Tore's Spontobeat Last Edited by waltertore on Aug 05, 2014 11:57 AM
The Iceman 1900 posts Aug 06, 2014 7:03 AM	Aside from name dropping who you hung out with and mentorship, nost that are lucky enough to experience it gained from the time spent. No one said you need a mentor to sound great on harmonica. Sometimes a sentence from an ol' mentor can change the way you orient yourself to music. I've had a few good experiences like this...in person and through personal research. One of my favorites that affected me deeply was the quote from Miles Davis when he was asked how he can play such unique solos - where does he start. His answer - "I think of a note and then don't play it". Why deny the advantages or argue against it? ---------- The Iceman
6SN7 447 posts Aug 06, 2014 7:29 AM	Sometimes, I think people confuse mentorship with name dropping or hanging with a "star."
Frank 5049 posts Aug 06, 2014 7:53 AM	Dennis just brings the "Legends" on tour with him, makes the MENTOR-SHIPing a no brainer :)
JustFuya 372 posts Aug 06, 2014 8:15 AM	Most all of my brushes with musical celebrity were seasoned with drugs & alcohol. There was a lot of conversation (unpleasant at times), some playing and very little of what I would consider mentoring. A respected musician once told me to bury my flute where the sun don't shine and stick with the harp. I did not heed his advice. Does that count as mentoring?
Komuso 370 posts Aug 06, 2014 8:38 AM	Sounds like a case of Miles Davis Syndrome ---------- Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream Last Edited by Komuso on Aug 06, 2014 8:38 AM
kudzurunner 4845 posts Aug 06, 2014 8:41 AM	Thanks for your stories, Walter. For me, the most interesting thing is the fact that, having had so much exposure to the old timers in so many different contexts, you're so determined in your own playing NOT to repeat, much less recreate. I mean your sound is very traditional--I hear a lot of Lightnin' Hopkins--but your spontobeat approach of never recreating or even repeating "repertoire" could not be more different from standard traditionalist approaches. You're at the other extreme. I'm guessing that this is at least partly a result of the old-timers having demanded that you find your own voice. Were they schizophrenic in that way? Did they insist a) that you adhere to a certain kind of groove and sound that they were invested in, and b) that you never simply copy or ape another player, but instead make a name for yourself? What amazed me about working with Sterling Magee was how deeply he was embedded in a living musical tradition, but simultaneously how pointedly he stressed his own originality. "I got me a three-octave sound ain't NEVER been heard before," he'd brag. "That's the hardest thing a musician can do: get himself a brand-new sound." He was always about that brand-new sound. But his grooves were deep in the tradition: heavily syncopated, easy to sink into. @jnorem: It recently occurred to me that almost every one of your posts in this thread views our talk about the importance of mentorship with aggression, alarm, and antagonism. We get it. Since nobody seems to have directly answered your concern: of COURSE there are some fine blues harmonica players who didn't have this sort of one-on-one mentoring relationship. There are always exceptions to the rule. Only a fool would insist that there aren't. You certainly don't need to feel defensive about your own lack of mentoring. Neither should you feel like you need to put down those of us who think there's something important going on here and want to figure out what it was. We're not just engaging in a trip down memory lane. Call it that and you're trivializing something that you admit you know little about. That's unwise. Mentoring, in ANY field, makes a difference. It can speed up, or constructively slow down, the learning process. It can deepen the learning process. It can impart spiritual and ethical lessons, rather than merely technical ones. Bad mentoring--and such a thing does exist--can also kill off the learning process; stop it dead in its tracks. We are all familiar with brutal, jealous, insecure teachers, or merely incompetent ones, who crush the spirits of the best students. There is no one path to mastery. I think almost all of us can agree on that. Last Edited by kudzurunner on Aug 06, 2014 8:47 AM
Goldbrick 590 posts Aug 06, 2014 9:37 AM	One of my heros- but obviously some tuff love here Last Edited by Goldbrick on Aug 06, 2014 12:06 PM
1847 2027 posts Aug 06, 2014 9:51 AM	sounds like buddy had some mental health issues ---------- i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica "but i play it anyway"
Honkin On Bobo 1224 posts Aug 06, 2014 9:59 AM	HA! LOVED the Komuso link on Miles Davis Syndrome. I learned a long time ago to separate the achievements of the "genius" in any field from the person him/herself. I suspect the MDS is present in all fields of human endeavor, and in the same general proportions as in the population at-large. The geniuses are simply more tolerated because they are, well, geniuses. That's particularly difficult to accept in musicians because of the way their music makes us feel and the notion that all great music contains a piece of the musicians soul. We conflate that to mean musicians must be good guys/gals, when, in fact, that's no more or less likely to be true than for any non-music playing individual. At least, that's been my experience in life. Note: "genius" being used here as a proxy for someone who has gotten to an extremely high level of proficiency in their chosen endeavor, not necessarily like mensa type genius. PS: JustFuya's "Does that count as mentoring?"......cracked me up Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Aug 06, 2014 10:09 AM
barbequebob 2669 posts Aug 06, 2014 10:17 AM	I have a copy of one of a number of bootleg cassettes of Buddy Rich berating his bands and that video has one of them and they always made me pee myself laughing and in blues, the closest to that was Albert King. Some of the old schools guys were real nice guys and some were just as manic as Buddy Rich because the one thing one HAS to remember that when it is YOUR band, each and EVERY LITTLE THING reflects both well as well as very poorly on you, which is one of the things some of those old school musicians drilled into my head and that is so 100% true. If you're dealing with a pro who is extremely passionate about their music, you're gonna have to EXCEPT them to be perfectionists that will never put up with anyone's BS at all, especially the dumb things I've far too often seen in open jams and more than a few will show absolutely ZERO mercy on them for that and won't give a rat's ass if they're screaming at you in front of a crowd or not, and some will take you aside with some quietly or quite loudly reading you the riot act and for some musicians, unfortunately, it can be a necessity. Mentors can help you keep an eye out for things to look for for the future once you're out on your own. Just from their experiences on the BUSINESS side of music alone is often quite valuable, and for me, it was especially true before the internet and books being published about the business side of music, which can get quite ugly at times. Now a number of you have seen my postings about groove and time and hopefully some of you have learned from it and some may have not learned much of anything, but those are important things that were drilled into me and it was part of the learning curve to ensure I had people around me to get what I needed happening, which are things you'll NEVER have happening in an open jam, and you eventually get to learn that you have to have a real strong concept/idea of what YOU want to sound like and what your band NEEDS to sound like and tho it may make you seem too fussy to some, but from experience, I'd rather play for a bandleader who has an idea of what they want things to sound like and won't put up with any dumb crap like you see in an open jam and will not let any of them get in the way of what they want regardless if it deflates egos in the process. Plenty of truth here in Adam's last paragraph!!!! ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
waltertore 2738 posts Aug 06, 2014 10:40 AM	Adam: You answered my reason in your last post - "What amazed me about working with Sterling Magee was how deeply he was embedded in a living musical tradition, but simultaneously how pointedly he stressed his own originality. "I got me a three-octave sound ain't NEVER been heard before," he'd brag. "That's the hardest thing a musician can do: get himself a brand-new sound." He was always about that brand-new sound. But his grooves were deep in the tradition: heavily syncopated, easy to sink into." If anyone hears my own sound in my music that is great but the thing is I do. I feel it is always changing/"found a new sound" and getting deeper, and with that it also has gotten simpler. The old blues guys were a gift from the universe. I was trying to play in regular bands and running into trouble all the time because I wouldn't sing the songs as they were written. I liked the beats but these movies that appear in my mind had to come out. The old guys used me as a backup and opening act with fronting the band. As long as I kept the crowd happy till they got up they really couldn't care less what songs I did. If anything I never challenged their repetiore so to speak. When I backed them up they just nodded and you played as I know you know. So through them I found a stage where I could let my spontaneous songs out as the frontman opening the shows and as a backup musician I could be free to blow anything I wanted. Again if the people were grooving that was the main thing and the people liked what I played. Was it traditional? Pretty much so compared to stuff I hear on this forum. For me the simple 1-3 chord song is still infinitely unexplored. It never ceases to grab me. It is the perfect palate for my spontaneous lyrics. Most players think they have mastered that stuff in a few months. This is what seperates them from the people we call great because they stuck to their one groove and just tweaked it a bit here and there. Today most bands are deathly afraid to play a slow groove for more than 1 song in a row and feel compeled to cover every beat known. Why? Because they don't have their own sound and jump all over the musical map of beats to hold the crowd. Their constant fear of losing the crowd is so clear to see it is sad. But they think this is the answer to success when all they have to do is go back to the basic 1-3 chords and find themselves. The bad news is this takes a lifetime and most will never do it. When I sit in with bands and they do what I call thinking chords it turns me off. I like a steady, predictable beat that allows the groove to twist and turn in little ways to no ways for most listeners/players but for me it is an endless frontier. Like Sterling I am very happy with my sound:-) Thanks. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller my videos Now playing: Walter Tore's Spontobeat Last Edited by waltertore on Aug 06, 2014 11:00 AM
jnorem 489 posts Aug 06, 2014 10:49 AM	@kudzurunner: I'm sure the "aggression, alarm, and antagonism" you perceive are your own projections. Should I put little smiley face signs after my posts? Nor am I defensive about my musical upbringing. I'm just posting, that's all, no hard feeling. Are we all supposed to agree on this forum? You say that good players who had no mentors are "exceptions to the rule." Well, why is it a rule to have a mentor? And as long as the point continues to be pressed that it is, why can I not continue to press my point that it isn't? ---------- Call me J
waltertore 2739 posts Aug 06, 2014 10:51 AM	PS: This thing I do, Spontobeat, came to me. I never planned a thing with my music and never will. That is another pitfall of most musicians. They think way too much. One has to let ones art unfold with no restrictions or rules. I see art as ones music being done as it has to be done. There is no concious choice and when one tries to control it, it vanishes. What is left is commercial art and 99.9999% of all music that involves a dollar exchanged, a desire to please, fit in, and any other outside influence falls into this realm. I will still play live but it is 100% on my terms with material, money, duration of performance. I really don't care anymore if I play a live gig to people again unless it is with these guidelines. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller my videos Now playing: Walter Tore's Spontobeat
The Iceman 1904 posts Aug 06, 2014 11:08 AM	jnorem: I have to agree with Kudzu regarding your postings. They feel to me to be argumentative and antagonistic - even your most recent one. You seem obsessed with "rule about having a mentor". I've never interpreted anything here which insists that a mentor is some sort of requirement. Perhaps simply stated - It is a blessing to have had a mentor in any sense. It is not a requirement to playing well. ---------- The Iceman
jnorem 490 posts Aug 06, 2014 11:26 AM	Okay then. :) ---------- Call me J Last Edited by jnorem on Aug 06, 2014 11:41 AM
Joe_L 2500 posts Aug 06, 2014 11:27 AM	"It is a blessing to have had a mentor in any sense." Benefits are quite simple: 1. They can hip you to cool new music. 2. They provide a critical ear and can point you in the direction of bad habits to change. 3. They can give a person valuable opportunities for being "on stage" with an excellent band that you might not find at your average local jam. 4. They are a valuable entry point into a network. There is an old joke that there is only one Blues Band in the world and it has 50,000 interchangeable members. 5. People who provide some degree of mentorship, formally or informally, are typically on a similar trajectory from a musical perspective. Can a person do it without a suitable formal or informal mentor? Absolutely. I think it is more difficult. ---------- The Blues Photo Gallery

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