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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
changing my mind about traditionalism
changing my mind about traditionalism
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Little roger
7 posts
Jul 22, 2014
12:56 AM
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Interesting thread, although it does go off on tangents at times, as is so often the case. So I'd like to address some of the issues raised and forgive me if I misinterpret something someone wrote way up in the thread.
Firstly, I am English but have lived in Germany for 25 years. This is where I have done most of my playing, although I have toured round neighbouring countries. When I started out in the mid/late 80s, there was a great blues scene here, primarily spurred on by the US west coast guys, Bill Clarke, Kim Wilson, Rod Piazza and co. It was a great time, particularly for harp and every band had a harp player, preferably a harp player that sang. Every jam had good/great stuff going on, which was generally considered as "retro" blues, a label I take issue with somewhat. Anyhow we were all pretty much youngish (early 20s). I am not sure why it happened or even how it happened, but there we were. Young guys all going the same direction. Great. Exciting. Musical ferment. And yes, some of us had "discovered" the generation before the retro wave (Muddy, Walter, Wolf and many more) beforehand, some as a result of the 90s surge.
Now here's the interesting thing. Was there a bunch of harp players (as that is what we are concentrating on here perhaps) running around in the area who we could learn from? No. None. It was as if the 80s had turned up and eaten then before spewing us out. I sought out and played with great blues musicians who had been around for a while, but no harp players. This was evidently different in outer countries. I travelled round the States for a few months playing with guys who I considered the "real deal" and who had been playing for the previous 20 years. Great stuff and I leant a lot. It also changed my perspective and approach.
Back in Germany. The music had gone through various other waves in the past 20 years and soul/blues has become increasingly popular. Traditional blues has taken a back seat, if it was ever in the driving seat. However, the guys I came up with are still around but we are all 20 years older. There are almost no young guys coming up. There are sure as hell no harp players! Where are they all? And to address Adam's point, there are no middle-aged white guys strutting their stuff either. To highlight the point, a good friend of mine works in a music shop and told me he almost never sells a harmonica whereas in the early 90s they were flying off the shelves.
With the exception of free, open air street festivals, there is another point worth mentioning. The blues audience has got older too. The blues and jazz clubs here rarely have anyone under the age of 40 in, unless a jazz student wearing a Norwegian sweater wants to see "the blues."
This forum, and the internet itself, tends to present a distorted view of reality. Search and you shall find.
I certainly hope a new generation appears soon, although I'm not sure I'm particularly comfortable with being the torch-bearer I fear I have become.
Roger
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jbone
1696 posts
Jul 22, 2014
3:56 AM
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I developed maybe a bit differently musically. I was so self-conscious for years, I jammed to records mostly and did not play with anyone live. But the time came when I HAD to go interact or stop growing at all.
A lot of my progress was made or discovered at jams. I began to have a-HA moments. Things fell into place that I would not have found left alone at home, or maybe it would have taken much longer to learn things needed.
Eventually working with bands and individuals, I got chances to study the originators of the music. Instead of covering someone who covered someone who covered the original artist, we studied the original artist and at least got that much closer to our heroes.
I adopted a sort of philosophy especially after working in studio on demos and the like. The idea to me was to retain that spontaneity found in live music. Raw, Real, Right Now.
Capture my music with as few filters as possible. Take and retake a few times if necessary but limit redo's and punch-ins to keep the live feel. Sometimes rewrite on the fly if the muse takes me. Rely on the other members to bring their own skills and twist to the material.
But always, always respect the form. To me a large part of the beauty of blues music is, if my Gramps was alive today- gone 41 years now- if he were here he'd recognize what I was doing and know it for blues. As would the cats who have inspired me. The saying that sticks for me is, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
In the duo, we do a wide range of music but it's largely rooted in simple progressions. From Skip James to Hank senior, Holly to Cash, RJ to Wolf and Walter, Reed to Big Mama, there is continuity in what we do. It's basic and elemental and ultimately all very similar.
I have been very fortunate to end up with a partner for these last 10 years- and for as long as we can play. A partner who has listened and taken my counsel but brought her own unique method and style to the table, much to my satisfaction and our mutual musical fulfillment. One of her first learning materials was a book of old public domain blues and we still do several songs from it after all this time.
I came into music in Texas during the 90's. SRV was king in many minds and I got so tired of SRV wannabe's at every jam. I was more inclined toward his big brother and Kim Wilson's partner. Further on along the road I turned toward some solo and duo guys who inspired me.
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
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jbone
1697 posts
Jul 22, 2014
4:01 AM
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I said all that to say this: If you have the opportunity and blessing to get some real school and training in music, you owe it to yourself to pursue that. To do otherwise would be a shame. I look back and wish I'd hooked up with one of the great harp guys in Dallas in the 80's and 90's and really gotten some first hand education about the craft and learned some things it took me an extra 15 years to arrive at.
You just don't have to stop with whatever rules you adopt. You can bring your own self to your music. With that you can find a spot where you are happy and effective.
Music education is an excellent basis but when you learn to inject your own self in, that's when you soar.
There has been little to match the absolute rush of hearing your own material, self produced, recorded raw, and mixed and mastered well, playing on your stereo or the local blues radio show. That says something.
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa7La7yYYeE
Last Edited by jbone on Jul 22, 2014 4:21 AM
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kudzurunner
4797 posts
Jul 22, 2014
4:44 AM
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Bluesjacketsman and mirco: As representatives of a younger generation, your good and resonant posts after my last post above officially convince me that I've raised a legitimate issue here.
Bluesjacketman, my friend Jon Smith, an academic who writes about something he calls "the new southern studies," also talks a lot about a younger generation's resentment of the boomers. There's something suffocating about old folks who think that their generation, as young folks, figured it all out and engaged in all the rebellions that could ever be worth engaging in. They're exemplified by the helicopter parent--or grandparent--who constantly wants to know what "the kids" are listening to so he can groove to it, too. Or who simply condescends, smugly, to those same kids, fingering his ponytail as he does so. Young people deserve better.
Mirco: my advice to you would be to collar Aki Kumar during or after a gig and ask him how he did it. How did he learn? What sort of experience and training did he undergo AFTER his apprenticeship with David Barrett. David is the key. He studied with Gary Smith, if I'm not wrong, and Smith was one of George "Harmonica" Smith's apprentices. This chain of teaching suggests that the problem is NOT the gradual supplanting of black elders with white elders. It's the forgetting, among today's generations, of just how important that teaching chain is.
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Frank
4871 posts
Jul 22, 2014
5:55 AM
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Also, there are a bunch of players who have a list of
"excuses" for not getting any better at harmonica and music in general - like > life gets to busy, I ain't got the time, I work to much etc. etc...Even if that's true - they are still EXCUSES, and the player who insists on using them will continue down the road of musical mediocrity. The Good Pro players who have their shit together (a least musically) are the ones who constantly sacrifice things to get to where they want be as a successful musician and they reach their goals largely in spite of "life getting in the way" because they are obsessed with living the life of a working musician and most everything they do is geared to supporting that desire and dream.
Last Edited by Frank on Jul 22, 2014 6:16 AM
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Diggsblues
1450 posts
Jul 22, 2014
6:26 AM
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Hey I'm a schooled musician LOLLL.
By the way Steve Guyger and I both studied
with Forest Scott on chromatic who was a very schooled
musician.
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Goldbrick
546 posts
Jul 22, 2014
6:28 AM
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I guess Jon Smith didnt grow up with the Who or else he would see that this is not a new generational conflict
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Frank
4872 posts
Jul 22, 2014
6:45 AM
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I have a suspicious feeling that Steve Guyger took many more lessons from "Papa Lightfoot" recordings then from Forest ? :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jul 22, 2014 6:47 AM
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Diggsblues
1451 posts
Jul 22, 2014
7:06 AM
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Steve mentioned Forrest on stage last time he was SPAH.
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1847
1974 posts
Jul 22, 2014
7:21 AM
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Also, there are a bunch of players who have a list of
"excuses" for not getting any better at harmonica and music in general - like > life gets to busy, I ain't got the time, I work to much etc. etc...Even if that's true - they are still EXCUSES, and the player who insists on using them will continue down the road of musical mediocrity. The Good Pro players who have their shit together (a least musically) are the ones who constantly sacrifice things to get to where they want be as a successful musician and they reach their goals largely in spite of "life getting in the way" because they are obsessed with living the life of a working musician and most everything they do is geared to supporting that desire and dream.
very profound,words of wisdom.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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The Iceman
1841 posts
Jul 22, 2014
7:56 AM
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It's not that schooled musicians are bad...it's only when they stop at the end of classroom schooling and feel that they are "there".
One should finish the classroom and then begin the journey.
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The Iceman
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dougharps
684 posts
Jul 22, 2014
9:18 AM
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I agree that people who love making music need to continue to develop and grow. I sure intend to keep on learning as long as I wake up on the right side of the grass.
Adam' post seems to me to be focused on professional blues musicians performing on stages at festivals and in major venues. He speaks of amateurs performing who have not connected with the blues at a primal level, but regardless have risen to prominence. He refers to them as "audibly ungrounded," a nice phrase. I don't think that they are a threat to real blues. Ultimately the real thing will prevail, because it is authentic.
There have always been amateur musicians playing in many different genres that in the evaluation of professionals, "don't have it." I don't see that as a problem. Why should the players in a small town symphony be held to the same standards as the orchestra in a major metro area? Would it be better that there were NO local music that helps players develop?
I believe that music making was historically a community endeavor that involved many people from different walks of life. Most were not full time pros. They engaged in making music for recreation and community cohesiveness. Dancing was a big part of it. Music at a sub-pro level can still be fun and creates a seedbed for future pros.
Not all ball players are in the big leagues, not all dancers are on ballet stages, not all people who make music are at the highest level of performance. The pros all started out playing with a mix of talent levels around them.
Amateurs do what they can to entertain and to have fun in the absence of high level pros. Amateurs are a big portion of the audience who ultimately supports the pros financially. In making amateur music they do what they are capable of and recognize and value the skill and talent needed to play at a higher level.
It is true that many members of the public who attend a performance are more interested in talking with friends, checking out girls/boys, and getting drunk. Of those who pay attention at all, many in the audience still cannot distinguish a superb performance on harmonica from a mediocre amateur act.
I think that an amateur musician who cares about music will continue to work to improve. It is not appropriate to apply professional standards to amateur performances other than to encourage improvement. The popularity of online instruction and this forum shows that many amateurs want to improve.
The bottom line is that it is the venues who hire the acts, and the venues that want a profit. Some club owners and festival promoters can distinguish good from bad, but money is the key. There is no guarantee that the best will be successful or even hired. There is no guarantee that the other bands with whom you share a stage will be pros and "get it."
Think of it as an opportunity: you can show the audience the way blues SHOULD be played, and stand out against the mediocre background. You may inspire amateurs in the audience to improve their performances.
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Doug S.
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DukeBerryman
402 posts
Jul 22, 2014
9:27 AM
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About 5 years ago, a jam was started here in the San Fernando Valley. A bar called the Maui Sugar Mill Saloon wanted to offer a night of live music. They looked on Craigslist and saw an ad from Cadillac Zack, a local guitar player. He came in, provided live music, and has kept the jam going.
I think traditional blues happens this way, and it has to be live, and it has to have a community around it. There has to be a reason (bar needs more patrons/money), there has to be a promoter (Zack), and there have to be players (me).
In other words, the music can't survive outside of a traditional context. You want traditional blues, and new players to keep the tradition alive? Then you need the right circumstances.
But, like a gardener, if you prepare and provide everything that's needed, a garden will grow. Kudzu, I think it's about time you open a club.
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Honkin On Bobo
1213 posts
Jul 22, 2014
9:31 AM
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Whew, just when I was thinking oh great, a set of unwritten rules as to whose allowed to get up on stage (one of which apparently is you must have studied under a blues elder in person) dougharps weighs in with a brilliant essay which sums up my thinking perfectly.
Thanks Doug, saved me a helluva lot of typing.
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The Iceman
1843 posts
Jul 22, 2014
9:31 AM
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Doug laments about the people who go to bars more interested in talking, watching sports tv, etc.
I've found if the musicians have something unique to offer, the attention of this crowd can be drawn to the stage - for a bit.
My last public playing was about 8 months ago w/Bill Sheffield, a great roots/blues guitar/singer from Atlanta. He was booked into the Wee Pub in Brunswick on a Thur night during a sports on tv evening. I showed up to sit in for a set around 9 PM.
Bill was lamenting the fact that he shouldn't have been booked, as all he saw was the backs of the dudes at the bar watching the big screen tv.
However, when I played with him, there were times when the music was so compelling and interesting that even those hard core sports dudes turned around to watch.
So, have something unique to offer to the crowd and watch the reaction.
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The Iceman
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dougharps
685 posts
Jul 22, 2014
9:41 AM
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Not really a lament, Larry, just an observation. I have also seen pros play to an empty house, and marginal amateurs fill a room with attentive friends.
I agree with your assessment, though. Just give the audience something that grabs their attention, and you may have new fans.
Play it like you mean it, even to people who came for the event, not the music, and even if you are playing to an almost empty room.
Play it like you mean it, play it the best you can.
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Doug S.
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Barley Nectar
445 posts
Jul 22, 2014
10:05 AM
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The sentiment that jams are for hacks ruffles my Goose feathers. We have a jam in Sharon PA that is attended regularly by a Grammy nominated jazz musician. A violin player who's son is a leading rock guitar icon. An accordion player who has published several books on his instrument. Several local band leaders/members. Solo song writers and husband wife duets. An Irish vocalist that may know every popular song both American and Irish. And a smoking hot rockabilly fellow. All genres of music are played. These jams are attended by an educated and sophisticated audience. No drum kits are allowed, only hand drums. There is a real piano on stage. Folks are welcome to sit in the audience and play along with whomever is on stage. Beginners are encouraged and instructed as are veterian players. The "Groove" is found, and it happens often.
Thank you Dougharp for your input. In my mind, you nailed it. Let's jam...Goose
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Jul 22, 2014 10:09 AM
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barbequebob
2653 posts
Jul 22, 2014
10:21 AM
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There are schooled musicians who learn how to REALLY listen and learn and then there's the schooled musician who cops the stereotypical attitude that at times has plagued classical musicians with a condescending, snobby attitude against anything that isn't classical, or in the case of the Berklee guys, anything that isn't jazz and those are the schooled musicians I have little patience for at all. Those are the types of musicians who are textbook smart but street stupid and never really learn to understand the importance of making sure that everything you do GROOVES 24/7.
I greatly benefited from being around those older black bluesmen not just for musical reasons, but also for the business side as well, and some of them taught me not by sitting me down every second, but from keen observation and paying VERY CLOSE ATTENTION to every little detail of what was going on, trying to learn what to do as well as what NOT to do.
I don't view any of them as gods, as some of you may be doing unknowingly, but as real people with both good sides as well as ugly sides, as there is no such thing as a totally perfect human being.
From them, I learned right away that no matter how large the size of the crowd you're playing to, you damned well BETTER be playing at your best 24/7 just like it was a full house and NEVER whine when it's a small crowd because one of the things I learned is that if you play to a small crowd like it's a full stadium, you have a HUGE chance to KEEP the crowd there and what I learned is there are club owners who DO notice this and are more likely to take a chance on you for further bookings because if you can keep a crowd there with just a few, there's a pretty good chance you'll do the same with a larger audience and whenever I hear musicians whine loudly in front of small crowds when not on the bandstand, and yet still inside the venue, that's NOT acting like a pro, but just an over glorified jam hack and that's a lesson I learned from them.
Can you learn the tradition without being around them? Yes, but it'll never be the same as learning from the real deal because of the insights you get from them.
Guys like Kim Wilson, Rod Piazza, William Clarke and Gary Smith all learned a lot by being around George Harmonica Smith, whose home base was LA, plus they were around other older blues greats living in the area like Big Mama Thornton, Big Joe Turner, Roy Brown, T-Bone Walker, Pee Wee Crayton, Johnny Otis, and just watching what they did on the bandstand and how they treated fans during a break was just as much of an education as it was for me being around Jimmy Rogers, meaning the education is much more than just the music and the history of the music.
Every newer player, if you listen really carefully, you can easily trace the roots of their influences and with someone like Little Walter, as an example, I clearly hear the influences of Big Walter Horton, both Sonny Boys, the sax of Louis Jordan as well as other big band jazz and jump blues players, as well as the influence of T-Bone Walker, and how he adapted things to where the groove was being played and going back thru a tradition, you can really learn from it IF you're willing to do the amount of real homework required, and quite frankly, to be good at anything, you also have to be a VERY DRIVEN S.O.B. to want to do it and if you're not driven enough, you won't do it, and if you're driven, you will never let ANYTHING get in the way of you learning it ad that's something I certainly learned from them, and that's given the fact that a number of those old bluesmen were poorly educated and even illiterate.
@JBone -- many pro musicians I've met often like Jimmy Vaughn over SRV because one thing Jimmy was CLEARLY better at, was rhythm playing and too many people don't pay enough attention to that.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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kudzurunner
4799 posts
Jul 22, 2014
10:37 AM
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Honkin' on Bobo: I'm sure you weren't trying deliberately to miss the point, but I believe that you've missed the point nonetheless. Nothing that I've written in this thread, and nothing--as far as I can tell--that anybody else has written suggests that there's not a place for amateurism, which is to say, for developing players, in the contemporary blues scene. Quite the reverse: I've been insisting not only that amateurs are needed, but that they need to be taken seriously. I've made suggestions for how amateurs who sincerely want to improve might actually--well, improve. I suggested deep listening (and not merely watching YouTube videos) and I suggested active participation in local blues scenes.
In other words, I'm the guy who is telling you that it's okay for you to get up and play.
But I'm also urging everybody to take the learning process, and the music, even more seriously than some may have been taking it. I'm pointing out that the human connection, during the learning process, is extremely important. In other words, if you go to your local jam session, play the same two songs you always play, never take any time at home for focused study, make no attempt to listen to and critique your own (amateur) playing (i.e., by taping yourself) and improve the things that need improving, that's not good. And if your local scene consists mainly of folks like you, and if THAT local scene ends up supplying most of the acts for a local blues festival, and if those acts are what people are choosing from when they make end-of-the-year awards....well, that's not good at all.
There is absolutely a place for amateurism in the contemporary blues world. But when amateurism means that folks are ceasing to take the music seriously, and when such amateurism has enough money behind it to get its recorded products on the airwaves, and when, as a result of all that, amateur blues playing starts to be confused with professional blues playing--again, that's when, as I see it, trouble starts.
By all means, decide that you love this music and want to play it with all your heart, improving and learning as you go. And then take the music seriously. If possible, seek out an elder who is a serious player and means what he (or she) plays. (It might just turn out that a younger player in your scene is the one who has the most to teach, so don't make the mistake of assuming that "old" means "wise" and "serious.") Spend time watching this player and figuring out what sets them apart. Do some serious nighttime listening with headphones on and your eyes closed. Take the music seriously. It's not a kids' playground--or an old farts' playground. That's all I'm saying.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 22, 2014 10:45 AM
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barbequebob
2654 posts
Jul 22, 2014
11:16 AM
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Kudurunner's post I happen to agree with because EVERY pro started out as an amateur, made ALL of the amateur mistakes, and then some, but there's always going to be some sort of learning curve and you are always continuing to learn.
Your third paragraph says quite a lot because too often that's what you have a tendency to see in a lot of open jams and those are the types who basically stagnate musically because their own attitude, they can never get the hell out of their own way and yet they're the ones who wonder why nobody wants them on their bandstands.
Your last paragraph is some VERY IMPORTANT ADVICE to heed if anyone wants to become a much better musician overall regardless of what genre of music it may be and it's all not too different than what many of those older musicians have said to me.
Along the way, I know I have been humbled MANY a time and most pros will tell you the same thing and they all most certainly have been humbled as an amateur more times than they'd like to admit!
Excellent post with tons of good advice!!!!!
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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MP
3249 posts
Jul 22, 2014
2:07 PM
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From Frank-
"I think a lot of the disillusionment when listening to the throngs of harp players out there is a direct result mostly to many players reaching a mediocre level of harmonica playing and becoming satisfied with that level of ability and decide it is to difficult for what ever reason to put in the blood, sweat and tears to up their game...Let's face it - it is hard enough to reach a "mediocre level" of harp skills and musicianship...So getting to the next level ain't handed to anyone and must be earned the hard way - and a whole lot of players stay stuck because of the mandatory continuous work involved to become a really good well rounded harp musician."
I couldn't agree more. To this day, w/ easy access to all the great music past and present at ones fingertips I still see mediocre to bad harp players get up on stage and make nothing but noise. Oh well. Some things never change. One of them is tone deafness combined w/ laziness and lack of respect for blues music as a wonderful art form. (sigh)
It's not all bad. I see a lot of great musicianship out there too. Love It!
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Littoral
1125 posts
Jul 22, 2014
3:23 PM
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After reading all the posts I wanted to hear some.
Sounds A LOT better on my Victrola though.
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atty1chgo
1015 posts
Jul 22, 2014
4:38 PM
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"Also, there are a bunch of players who have a list of "excuses" for not getting any better at harmonica and music in general - like > life gets to busy, I ain't got the time, I work to much etc. etc...Even if that's true - they are still EXCUSES, and the player who insists on using them will continue down the road of musical mediocrity."
- Excuse me, Frank. We don't all want to be professionals. For me, I want to be good enough to step up and play with pros, and I have done that many times without a claim of mediocrity. Your value judgments about people's life choices and priorities are grossly misplaced. And I don't want to be single and renting in my old age eating Dinty Moore stew and Spam from a can. Maybe you don't care if you do or not. We all have our own paths in life. Calling them "EXCUSES" with a subtle hint at it being some sort of weakness of mind and desire is pure bullshit and not worthy of any merit.
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Goldbrick
547 posts
Jul 22, 2014
5:17 PM
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I think Frank is correct in his assessment, I dont think it was a value judgement
It just becomes an issue of priorities.
Not all of us want to be world class. Most of us ( myself included ) dont have the raw talent so the extra commitment would be a waste of time and delusional to boot. I believe we do all wish to be competent and knowledgeable or else we wouldnt be on the forum.
Knowing your limitations as Clint might say is just common sense. I dont think Frank is saying its a character flaw. Its just the musical equivalent of the old racing saying " speed costs- how fast do you wanna go?"
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Gipsy
78 posts
Jul 22, 2014
11:17 PM
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Simple question. How does ' paying your dues ' by listening to or absorbing from well respected blues musicians, put you in the place where the blues actually came from. It comes from the heart. It can be musically simple or extremely complicated, but no amount of associating with, listening to or sitting in with, can guarantee to put anyone in that place where true blues feeling comes from. Unless you really know how that feels, unless you've been there and experienced it, it's all pretentious twoddle.
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GamblersHand
517 posts
Jul 23, 2014
5:24 AM
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I may be missing the point of this thread, but ok, so here's a guy from New Zealand that grew up far from the authentic source of the blues, didn't have a mentor or anyone passing the torch as far as I know, and yet can play (in my opinion at least) with deep blues feeling?
So I agree with Gipsy and others on this. Some people have the passion/drive/mindset/ears/gift/whatever to play this music well regardless
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kudzurunner
4802 posts
Jul 23, 2014
9:22 AM
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Gamblers:
Thanks for posting the clip by Darren Watson. I'd never heard of him before you posted your video, and I'll agree with you that he is indeed a heavyweight. He plays powerfully, for real, and takes his time. As far as I'm concerned, we need more artists like him. He's doing a great job, in this clip, or honoring and representing a country blues tradition.
I was curious about his biography--and specifically your assumption that he didn't have a mentor or anybody "passing the torch"--and so I went looking. I found a bio, and one paragraph of it suggests that he's had quite a bit of shoulder-rubbing with top-flight American blues artists. My hunch is that he took something important from seeing them up close, and that he may well have made friends with one or more of them, shared backstage and after-hours time with them, maybe even hung out over a period of several days. But I think the question of how he learned is a fascinating one, and well worth investigating. Some gifted musicians go a long way on a few deep encounters--assuming that they've put in the long woodshed hours, and played the hundreds of gigs, which he clearly has.
Here's the bio:
"Darren Watson plays the blues with skill and conviction that's more than impressive. It's scary!" RIP IT UP
"...blues with such eloquence makes me feel glad all over. " GARTH CARTWRIGHT
Darren Watson is an international award winning New Zealand blues musician and songwriter. The former leader of legendary Kiwi rhythm & blues big band Chicago Smoke Shop is widely acknowledged as one of the country's best live performers.
In his career to date Darren has performed on the bill with a virtual who's who of blues, country, soul, folk, and rock including: Koko Taylor, Billy Boy Arnold, Robert Cray, The Fabulous Thunderbirds, George Thorogood, Emmylou Harris, Keb Mo, Doug MacLeod, Buddy Millar, Doctor John, Joe Cocker, Eric Burdon, and new soul kid on the block Eli 'Paperboy' Reed ....to name a few.
In a world where a lot of blues acts seem to be simply aping the great music of the past whilst offering nothing new, Watson is forging his own fresh, original path. His sound is a unique South Pacific 'boil-up' of his American and British influences including blues artists like Otis Rush, and Johnny 'Guitar' Watson, a dash of the southern soul of the early Stax and Hi Records sound, the country-soul of Lowell George... and even a peppering of Elvis Costello. It's a recipie developed in the relative isolation of New Zealand over the last fifteen years or so. Honed to perfection on his fourth studio album, Saint Hilda's Faithless Boy. The Dominion Post recently raved “This is world class. We are lucky to have him. More people should know that”, while respected US blues music critic Bill Mitchell said “Saint Hilda's Faithless Boy gets better each time I listen to it.”
Saint Hilda's Faithless Boy was some time in the making and follows on from Darren’s critically acclaimed 2005 LP South Pacific Soul, which features the track All Going Wrong. The tune won the 2008 Blues Award at The International Songwriting Competition in Nashville. Judges included Tom Waits & legendary English bluesman John Mayall.
Darren and his band have been selected to represent Auckland at the International Blues Challenge in Memphis in January/February 2012.
Career awards and nominations to date:
1989 NZ Music Awards - Most Promising Male Vocalist
1990 NZ Music Awards - Top Male Vocalist
1993 Wellington Music Awards - Best Live Act
1996 Wellington Music Awards - Best Blues Artist
2003 NZ Music Awards - Best Roots Album 'King Size'
2008 International Songwriting Comp. 1st Place Blues.
2009 International Songwriting Comp. 3rd Place Blues.
2009 International Songwriting Comp. Finalist.
2010 International Songwriting Comp. Finalist.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 23, 2014 9:24 AM
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eharp
2189 posts
Jul 23, 2014
9:46 AM
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" that he may well have made friends with one or more of them, shared backstage and after-hours time with them, maybe even hung out over a period of several days."
You got that from THIS bio?
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MP
3251 posts
Jul 23, 2014
1:11 PM
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Very few harp players worldwide, due to geography and many other reasons have never befriended/rubbed shoulders or even shook the hands of George Smith or Big Walter Horton...pick an artist________.
My education came from my older brothers extensive record collection and Vietnam War Stereo he acquired in Japan like so many other vets.
I was captivated by John Lee Hooker performing "Sugar Mama" on a Newport Folk Festival record.
Folk, Blues, Rock, Country, it was all music to me and I absorbed. I gravitated; as I still do to this day, to music that moves me.
I think Adams point is simple.
Pay close attention to the Masters of this wonderful art form. By all means do your own thing. But never lose sight of what drew you to the music in the first place. I call it SOUL. Blues is a soulful music and the best players are dripping wet w/ soul.
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Affordable Reed Replacement
Marks Harmonica Tune-up
Click user name MP for contact info
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Gipsy
79 posts
Jul 23, 2014
1:57 PM
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Goodness there is a load of pretentious crap in this thread. So many peeps seem to look on the blues as an academic pursuit that can be mastered by rubbing shoulders with and immersing oneself in the ' greats ' of the genre. IMVHO it's all over intellectualised bollocks. It's not an intellectual pursuit it's an expression of inner feelings and emotions. Excellent musicianship merely embellishes the authenticity of the underlying message. It's the underlying message that counts.
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Frank
4891 posts
Jul 23, 2014
2:19 PM
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Your excused my friend, now go in peace :)
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JustFuya
343 posts
Jul 23, 2014
4:27 PM
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Tradition = Inspiration, perspiration and sedation..
Last Edited by JustFuya on Jul 23, 2014 7:54 PM
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jnorem
430 posts
Jul 23, 2014
4:36 PM
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To those few who actually spent lots of time around the old black blues players, if you hadn't done that would you still be a blues musician?
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Call me J
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The Iceman
1844 posts
Jul 23, 2014
4:46 PM
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jnorem...
I wouldn't be near as good a blues musician (or funk musician either).
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The Iceman
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waltertore
2701 posts
Jul 23, 2014
4:48 PM
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I learned direct from the greats by being onstage, traveling, living, with them. My life was all about finding the guys that inspired me and hanging with them to learn. There is no substitute for this. Music has been physically passed down since day one. In 1 generation of internet this is all being erased and probably will be near extinct in our lifetime because many of the guys being regarded as great today have little to no direct link to any of the blues greats and many of the guys like me that learned direct have no interest in using the net to teach. It basically goes against the way it was meant to be learned - you have to knock on the door instead of clicking on the mouse :-). Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
my videos
Last Edited by waltertore on Jul 23, 2014 4:57 PM
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Frank
4899 posts
Jul 23, 2014
4:49 PM
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That's a hell of a confession Larry :)
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kudzurunner
4803 posts
Jul 23, 2014
6:43 PM
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Gipsy: There's nothing wrong with thinking critically about the blues--intellectualizing the music, as you put it--but it's a mistake to confuse that with the process of learning how to feel and play the music. They're two different things.
Just "feeling the blues," of course, doesn't begin to constitute an adequate toolkit for actually playing the music well. That's one of the main points of this thread. But it's certainly better to feel it than not feel it. And there isn't much redeeming value in pure technique without some soul to back it up.
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jnorem
433 posts
Jul 23, 2014
7:16 PM
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@Iceman - "I wouldn't be near as good a blues musician (or funk musician either)."
How do you know?
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Call me J
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jnorem
434 posts
Jul 23, 2014
7:21 PM
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@waltertore : "I learned direct from the greats by being onstage, traveling, living, with them. My life was all about finding the guys that inspired me and hanging with them to learn. There is no substitute for this."
Does that mean that anyone who didn't learn "direct from the greats by being onstage, traveling, living, with them" isn't as good or expressive or as knowledgeable a blues harp player as you are?
If not, then why does it matter so much?
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Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on Jul 23, 2014 7:22 PM
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Gipsy
80 posts
Jul 23, 2014
11:38 PM
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@kudzrunner. Sorry to disagree with you, but I believe there's a massive difference between thinking about the blues, and intellectualising the blues. ' The Blues ' was born out of individuals who had a story to tell, most always dealing with oppression or heartache etc, and they used the tools they had available to them to tell that story. End of. It's us wannabes who can't hope to fully understand the truly awful lives some peeps were forced to live, who hope to understand it by examining it under a microscope, or by reading about the originators or by associating with them. When in life, if we end up in that place where we ' have ' the blues, our lives, our thoughts, our art ( read music or any other form of communication ) will express what we feel, and it'll be ours and ours alone. If other peeps like it fine, if not that's also fine, but it'll be the blues.
No more from me now. I'm a distinctly average guy who is a less than average harp player, who because of my chosen profession has seen ' the blues ' at first hand. There's nothing pretty about it, there's nothing great about it. However talking about it ( singing ), or painting it might help the individual forget for a while.
Last Edited by Gipsy on Jul 23, 2014 11:49 PM
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waltertore
2702 posts
Jul 24, 2014
4:39 AM
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"@waltertore : "I learned direct from the greats by being onstage, traveling, living, with them. My life was all about finding the guys that inspired me and hanging with them to learn. There is no substitute for this."
Does that mean that anyone who didn't learn "direct from the greats by being onstage, traveling, living, with them" isn't as good or expressive or as knowledgeable a blues harp player as you are?
If not, then why does it matter so much?
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Call me J"
J: I can easily tell the difference between a player that has learned in isolation(videos, backing tracks,online instruction) vs. one that has learned from living the life immersed with the elders. It isn't strictly about technical ability. In fact that has little to do with it. Many of the guys I learned under were not technically very good but they sure could move people. Most played with what most today would call inferior gear and of limited ability. Onstage vibe is directly dependent on this coupled with years of doing it night after night. I would place myself in this catagory (20 years worth) and wouldn't change it for the world. Players that lack this backround don't hold my interest even though they are technically phenomenal because IMO the root of the blues is all about this stuff. I have seen too many technically great players that lack the root to remember on this forum. This is my opinion. Music is all about opinion. Thank god there isn't undisputable rule on art like 2+2=4... Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
my videos
Last Edited by waltertore on Jul 24, 2014 4:52 AM
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kudzurunner
4804 posts
Jul 24, 2014
4:50 AM
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I email Darren Watson to ask about his learning process and got a very friendly and long email back. I've asked him if I can post it here and he's taking a moment to vet it before I do that. I can say right now that deep, focused listening to the old masters was one of his main themes. He mentioned being frustrated with acts, often from a rock direction, that don't really care about the blues and haven't listened deeply to them but that pose as blues acts regardless.
Stay tuned.
@gipsy: I agree with you. I spend quite a lot of time thinking about the blues and no time at all intellectualizing them. I was using the word simply to make an earlier poster happy, since it's a word he used. It's not a word I use, or like.
edited to add: It's a desire NOT to intellectualize the blues that leads me, when I teach classes on the blues at Ole Miss, to invite local blues musicians into class to share their stories. Leo "Bud" Welch, Bill "Howl-N-Madd" Perry, and Mark "Muleman" Massey have been guests over the past two years. They've spoken about their harsh work experiences, addictions, prison, poverty. The kids pay attention. This speaks to the main point of this thread: if you want to learn the music--and not just learn about it--you need to spend some time with blues people, listening to and absorbing the meanings of their stories.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 24, 2014 5:12 AM
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eharp
2192 posts
Jul 24, 2014
4:55 AM
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I totally agree about some acts that call themselves Blues but are truly Rock.
Not that there is anything wrong with a Rock band ATTEMPTING some Blues.
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kudzurunner
4805 posts
Jul 24, 2014
4:59 AM
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"My life was all about finding the guys that inspired me and hanging with them to learn. There is no substitute for this."
I agree, Walter. An essential part of the blues learning process is about finding people who have lived and understand the music and spending some time in their presence. It doesn't take much. I spent a couple of hours one afternoon rehearsing two songs with Wild Jimmy Spruill in his Bronx apartment--six of us were sitting on his bed, playing our instruments, very comfy: black and white, male and female--and a couple of hours the next day in a recording studio in midtown, recording those same two songs. I learned a lot from how Jimmy talked, carried himself, and, most of all, approached the process of making music with other people.
YouTube videos and an occasional jam session at the neighborhood pub isn't enough.
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GamblersHand
518 posts
Jul 24, 2014
5:00 AM
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Kudzu - that sounds about right. Darren is from my hometown, and while I can recall him mentioning some inspirations when growing up - Midge Marsden for one, in my opinion he had surpassed them by his early 20s.
I first caught Chicago Smokeshop opening for Robert Cray in '88 I think. Cray was great, but they stole the show.
Many people have suggested that he should have relocated to Austin, or Sydney at least - New Zealand is a very small market, especially for niche music.
Come to think of it, my old NZ band back in the 90s were probably one of those blues bands playing it badly!
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waltertore
2703 posts
Jul 24, 2014
5:08 AM
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""My life was all about finding the guys that inspired me and hanging with them to learn. There is no substitute for this."
I agree, Walter. An essential part of the blues learning process is about finding people who have lived and understand the music and spending some time in their presence. It doesn't take much. I spent a couple of hours one afternoon rehearsing two songs with Wild Jimmy Spruill in his Bronx apartment--six of us were sitting on his bed, playing our instruments, very comfy: black and white, male and female--and a couple of hours the next day in a recording studio in midtown, recording those same two songs. I learned a lot from how Jimmy talked, carried himself, and, most of all, approached the process of making music with other people.
YouTube videos and an occasional jam session at the neighborhood pub isn't enough. "
Adam: Your example is great example and I can take it further with this. I was living in Northern CA on a funky "ranch" that mainly was a drug hangout for the hells angels and ex cons getting out of San Quentin. The owner's first boyfriend was Jimmy and at the time when he backed buster brown on his New king of the blues album. She gave me the original copy he gave to here when it came out. She also inspired me to keep at my music and shared many stories of her days with Jimmy and her life in the blues scene. That record went from me to Fast Floyd, an original member of Mink Deville (he named the band after pasting a thrift store mink coat over the cracked dash of his cadillac deville. He was an avid record collector and often played guitar in my band. Another is an email I got a while back from Charlie Musselwhite saying hi and that he still plays the album I gave him I recorded in Belguim back in the early 80's. These kind of connections and experiences only come when one makes the quest their top priority and no amount of youtube studying will get one to this kind of stuff. Music goes way beyond the technical side of music. That side is the easiest part of the equation as is seen here on the forum so frequently. The life is the hardest part. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
my videos
Last Edited by waltertore on Jul 24, 2014 5:13 AM
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The Iceman
1846 posts
Jul 24, 2014
6:05 AM
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Woodshedding for hours and video lessons = (not always, but frequently) music with A LOT of notes flying by.
The Real Deal Blues Masters = (not always, but frequently) choosing the one note that says it all and knowing where to place it, sucking all the marrow out of it's bone.
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The Iceman
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1847
1985 posts
Jul 24, 2014
7:37 AM
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contemporary blues players
are these the blues players we are talking about?
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
Last Edited by 1847 on Jul 24, 2014 7:38 AM
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harmonicajoe
37 posts
Jul 24, 2014
8:37 AM
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This is a great thread. Really interesting, but i guess I have a different perspective. I love blues, and blues got me playing the harmonica. But then I began to love playing the harmonica more than any one type of music. I began to adore Charlie McCoy and Stevie Wonder almost as much as Little Walter. I just wanted to play the harmonica. I played in rock bands with "blues influences" like Treat Her Right. I played in rock bands that featured harmonica like the The. And now I play in an acoustic folk/ country outfit called Session Americana. Do I miss cranking my Astatic through a 4/10 Bassman. Hell yeah! But I am playing gigs,and I am playing lots of harmonica. Some nights are better than others but I go home happy. Especially if I can pull of a good riff or two...That's my two cents.
Best, Jim Fitting
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jnorem
437 posts
Jul 24, 2014
11:09 AM
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"An essential part of the blues learning process is about finding people who have lived and understand the music and spending some time in their presence."
Why is it essential, and what if it's impossible for someone to find people who have lived and understand the music to spend some time in their presence? If it's so "essential", should that person just give up?
I hear a lot about a kid named Nick Clark, I believe is his name, and people are raving about this kid. Is that because at his tender age he found people who have lived and understand the music and spent some time in their presence?
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Call me J
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