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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
changing my mind about traditionalism
changing my mind about traditionalism
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waltertore
2725 posts
Jul 29, 2014
9:38 AM
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Joe/Adam: You guys hit a bullseye. There were always a small minority of people at gigs that would come up to you and ask to sit in with no respect shown. I learned a lot of approaches from the old blues guys to deal with this type but they were only the occassional hassle.
Sundays/Mondays use to be the blues jam days. I remember sitting at Dan Lynch's Sunday blues jam from 11am-2am for a year and never got asked up to play. I would let Bill Dicey know I was there and he told me he would get me right. He had heard me play so knew I could hold my own. He even invited me to his apt and paid some very big compliments on me. He then proceeded to send me to a dive on bleeker that was full of junkies. they tried to get me to try herion which I declined. Eventually I got asked up to play with Bill and he changed the key on me in mid song. I got in a big fight with him and the back up band when they started laughing. I was thrown out. Bobby Radcliff came out and told me they were scared and that is how they deal with it. So I would hang out in front of the club with Bobby, and Danny Russo, who drove a cab. Danny said he had much the same experience and we ended up playing together in his cab many an hour. I ran into similar stuff in the bay area but eventually cracked the Eli's mile high club jam and Mark Naftlins blue monday at the sleeping lady in fairfax which was aired by tom mazzolini on kpfa. I learned a lot of mean ways to deal with honest, passionate, green bean, players, and I am ashamed to admitt I used it on some. But in general I prefered to say up front that this isn't a jam session.
Then the smaller clubs started doing blues jams on sunday, which led to more days of the week because people came in with lots of $ and friends and no waiting to get onstag. One got to be a rock star for the evening...... This began the begining of the end of house gigs, and the 50-200 seat clubs.
Now comes these jam camps and such. There is instant gratification which is our way today. I heard from a guitarist who plays with a national blues act about a festival he played that offered seminars with the headliners. Louisiana Red was one of the presenters. He told that all the other guys had a very scripted/interactive format with lots of handouts and such. Red on the other hand just showed up with his guitar and proceeded to play like he would at any gig. My friend told me he was the only one at Red's seminar and the others were overflowing. He said Red was really hurt no one came. My friend, like me, said the session with Red was one of the highlights of his life. He learned more than he could ever decode in a lifetime.
Because of all this change to all are great I am glad to be out of music for any kind of finacial need. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
my videos
Last Edited by waltertore on Jul 29, 2014 9:40 AM
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waltertore
2726 posts
Jul 29, 2014
9:54 AM
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PS: These jam camps are a in a big part the direct result of the loss of decent club gigs due to the downward spiral of live music which is a result of musicians undercutting each other, play for free, pay to play, blues jams where everyone gets their time (I even saw a schedule grid you filled your name on at one). This has left the guys trying to earn a living to having to do these session/camp things.
I have tried doing a couple and did them much like Red did in my post above-no adgenda, just an informal session where I play and chat. I answered questions but didn't have the person asking them come up and try the stuff t hey were asking about. I left it to them to figure on their own because that is the way I was taught. Some people seemed to really enjoy what I did but most couldn't wait to get on to the jam section where they could be onstage. Back in the day we would be confined to the basement until we earned our wings, but now it is all up front, video taped, and often recorded for your memories. I think Charlie Musselwhite may be the last, or one of the last, that doesn't do the jam camp things.
I remember sitting at the feet of the greats as they played and getting so excited I wanted to jump up onstage and play but I would never do that. Instead I took that inspiration to my room, a street corner, or the band I was with, and used it to move to new levels with my playing.
In conclusion, I know there are lots of respectfull players out there that would never push themselves on a scene. They use to be the majority but are rapidly becoming extinct.
Adam: My hat is off to you. You have flowed with the internet and turned a career that was probably destined to telling old stories and an occasional gig into a profitable venture via a forum, lessons, gigs coming from these, books. I think this is what is going to be the norm from now on and the players will come up via youtube learning. Less actual gigs where people come to hear the performer and more instructional/interactive things where the audience becomes the performer. You may be the last link of the old school that enjoys success in the new school.
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
my videos
Last Edited by waltertore on Jul 29, 2014 10:03 AM
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Goldbrick
569 posts
Jul 29, 2014
10:12 AM
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Walter and Joe L. are correct- Blues jams have become a source of free entertainment for club owners. Its seems that people have no pride in their actual ability and get on stage to impress their friends. The bar owners sell drinks to their buddies and dont pay a band. Miami is overrun with that crap.
If you ask some of these guys why they play the blues ( and I have ) the answer is its " easy" drum circles are " easy" low level running is " easy".
The issue is when it clashes with those of us who are more serious in our pursuits. I just bite my tongue and pass it by If its in your heart do what you do and screw the Blues Brother and all the rest of the dilletante amateur hour crap
The serious will still be there when the walker gets his pin, the blues brother turns to football and the young know nothing finally gets a girlfriend and a car payment.
Its a catch 22- those of us in fringe pursuits want acceptance and approval yet that often brings a cheapening and watering down of our pursuit.
I used to be heavily involved in harleys and worked for some national publications. It was pretty fringe 40 years ago.. When factory customs came out and every clown with a ponytail had a rubberband bike with a hard tail that was it for me.
Luckily the blues is enuff a part of me that- I just try to avoid the loudmouths and the wannabes and I "just go back to the border - a place where I am better known"
Last Edited by Goldbrick on Jul 29, 2014 10:18 AM
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Tuckster
1445 posts
Jul 29, 2014
10:19 AM
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All this begs the question of who does the mentoring today? In the past,the blues greats were approachable physically,at least.Nowadays,you can't do that with Kim Wilson or Charlie Musselwhite or Estrin or any of the big names. There may be a very small handful of locals that do blues right,but they're hard to find. Where do I get mentored?
As far as tradition, a lot of "blues" players education goes as far back as SRV or maybe Clapton. They never dig back any further. They seem to only pay attention to the solos and "big" parts of the music and totally ignore the nuances that make blues special. How many bands nowadays can play like Muddy's bands?
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barbequebob
2661 posts
Jul 29, 2014
10:25 AM
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Too many blues jams are often going to be the WORST place for TRULY learning the music because it's far too often like a macho karoake contest of who can be more of a flash ass and the vast majority of jammers often don't know squat about the music at all and that has certainly NOT helped the music much and too often you have jammers with at times with a seemingly entitled attitude made even worse with a know it all thing on top of it and if they were ever around pros who REALLY know the music quite well, they'd get badly exposed in a NY minute.
When I started, I made it a point to hang out with the masters whenever possible to learn, but making sure I treated them with respect and never get pushy, plus going to as many shows as I possibly could to LEARN as much as possible, which means I had to NOT listen to music the way the average jam hack does, meaning the idiotic thinking of "solos first and everything else dead last." I had to pay attention to EVERY little detail of what's happening BESIDES the soloing, which too often you don't seem the majority of jammers ever really doing.
I had never asked to sit in with anyone, even the masters, and let them do the asking. Most players who nag to sit in, 99% of the time are always going to be awful players barely good enough to even be participating in an open jam, and that's saying it quite politely.
The business side of music certainly hasn't helped as waltertore says, plus the decline of the musician's union really hasn't helped either since the heyday of the disco era of the 70's, and they only power they still really have is with major labels, studios, symphony orchestras, GB gigs, hotel circuits, and maybe a small number of area locals.
The uglier side of the open jam for a band hosting them is that they'e gonna be putting up the equipment, risking the possibility of their stuff getting ruined by jammers for a variety of reasons, including spilling drinks on the amps (you spill a drink or even place a drink on my amp, you'e dead meat to me), plus too often, the host band is severely underpaid for what they've got to put up with (and the pay is often times far less than even a low paying regular gig.
Part of the tradition is mentoring, which as many of those masters did for me, I also did for a very young guitar player who I met while I was hosting a jam for a year and helped get him straight and that was Troy Gonyea, and had be been around the usual jams, they'd most likely turn him into a crappy musician from being around jammers without a clue. Paying it foward and mentoring is also a part of the tradition as well.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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BigAl
29 posts
Jul 29, 2014
10:52 AM
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Amen Bob.
One piece of advice that has stuck with me, never ask to sit in, never. If the band requests you play, it shows your reputation before you ever play a note. After all it is their gig. When you don't ask, when you could, it shows something about your musical maturity. Respect. The music doesn't need you unless you have something to say. Respect the music. Respect the time you put into forging your sound. Respect the the band you are borrowing for a tune or two.
Just my two cents,
Al
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The Iceman
1872 posts
Jul 29, 2014
10:57 AM
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Tuckster opines..."who does the mentoring today? In the past,the blues greats were approachable physically,at least.Nowadays,you can't do that with Kim Wilson or Charlie Musselwhite or Estrin or any of the big names. There may be a very small handful of locals that do blues right,but they're hard to find. Where do I get mentored?"
Have you tried contacting Musselwhite, Wilson or Estrin?
You might be surprised.
Also, re:Waltertore's jam experience...this type of silliness runs rampant at clubs where the local "kings of the blues" hold court. If someone shows up with considerable talent, it is not unusual for the "kings" to promise to call them up (usually at the end of the last set) - effectively making the talent sit there all night - and then not calling them up.
A twisted power play by the easily intimidated 1/2 talented paper thin "local kings of the scene".
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The Iceman
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walterharp
1474 posts
Jul 29, 2014
12:52 PM
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this is a weird thread, some of it pretty damn straight forward. Here is my take FWIW
1) You gotta listen to, assimilate the classics before you break new ground. This requires deep listening and playing lots of hours. It used to require getting records and repeating parts again and again, with figuring most of the stuff out on your own.
2) IF you are lucky and persistent you should find a mentor, but that is a roll of the dice. Some guys just don't want to deal with it. Some places have none.
3) You can jump start some of this by going through the youtubes and lessons. It is a way to get down some of the difficult tricks in far less time. The major failings are pointed out here, but nothing substitutes for a real teacher.
4) Playing live with other people helps, but jams are not the best way to do this unless they are professionally run.
5) If you have the dough, you can go to jam camps or pay for lessons with some of the top names. This somehow seems antithetical to living the blues life and paying your dues.
6) Equating teachers or mentors to traditionalism is sloppy. If the mentor is a traditionalist, then yes, that is true. If the mentor is not, then you are learning whatever their musical preference is.
7) if you work hard enough to be happy with what you play,you are there...if you want others to share with that then you need to learn to play in public or make kick ass youtubes. For the public bit, you need learn to perform and click with other musicians. Timing, listening, communication, all that.. A mentor helps, time on stage helps, and lots more work.
I bet if you talked to bluegrass, jazz, folk, country or other musicians this list would be about the same.
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jnorem
470 posts
Jul 29, 2014
12:57 PM
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Agreed on all 7 points, Walter.
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Call me J
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nacoran
7888 posts
Jul 29, 2014
2:32 PM
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Is the jam scene really all that different though, than a family sitting around with their neighbors on the front porch playing and singing?
I think it's important to listen to the classic to the extent that you want to sound like the classics (or even if you want to make sure you don't sound like the classics). They teach you that in any creative field. Read Shakespeare, look at Picasso. The reason to do it is because the more you listen/look at quality performance and the more you talk about it and study it (formally or informally) the more little nuances you'll pick up.
If I could magically pull any one feature out of the ether and add it to this site it would be a 'quick record' button that would let people post sound clips really easily. We get people posting a clip of themselves, and if anyone wants to give them a demonstration or ask a question it's a whole process. That one thing, I think, would make the site much more like having a mentor (or really, lots and lots of mentors). We did try once, having Skype chats, but it's kind of hard to keep a chat going across multiple timezones.
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Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
First Post- May 8, 2009
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Billfish89
14 posts
Jul 29, 2014
11:34 PM
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this 1st part is regarding Adam's video and the thread's root topic.
Adam, great video topic!
I agree with Chris L's comments 100% (back on page 3). Thanks for sharing everything you have with us.
I think your video lessons contain a good backdrop of history - enough to prompt someone to research it more.
There are articles, interviews, both text and video which we can find online,
I found some books on the subject (you may have mentioned in one of your lessons)
The Devil's Music: a History of the Blues, Giles Oakley, (Da Capo Press, 1976)
Deep Blues: A Musical and Cultural History of the Mississippi Delta, Robert Palmer, (Penguin Books, 1988)
Journeyman's Road: Modern Blues Lives From Faulkner's Mississippi to Post-9/11 New York, Adam Gussow, (Tennessee, 2007)
Adam you had a hand in documenting the blues history; we need to realize it and in turn respect it.
I think I'll start with the latest book first.
Re: Jams and Jam Camps:
I play harp because it makes me feel good, plain and simple. Melodies, rock, folk, blues.
'advanced beginner' I follow Adam's lessons, both free and downloaded. No one-on-one teacher.
My brush with seasoned players is through deep listening to the music and through this forum community.
I'm OK with that, for now.
Walterharp- your 7 points are very helpful -
thank you!
for developing to play better, and with others, sounds like jams and jam camps are not so great.
but, listening to others play a Lot, practicing, recording, and self-critiquing- better.
But then after that, ? Workshops?
Last Edited by Billfish89 on Jul 29, 2014 11:47 PM
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blueswannabe
487 posts
Jul 30, 2014
4:45 AM
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most of us are not fortunate enough to have a blues great mentor us in person. I wish that weren't the case. And time is usually limited. I think the next best thing is listening to their music, over and over again, studying one note, one bar, and one chorus at a time. Pay attention to everything and listen often. Try to catch as many blues shows that you can. You can learn a lot by seeing a pro in action. During a break in the show, buy their CD, and show support. Although their time is limited, some are willing to share a few brief thoughts. Be respectful of their time.
@bbq - you're right about the jam.
Last Edited by blueswannabe on Jul 30, 2014 4:50 AM
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Frank
4956 posts
Jul 30, 2014
5:29 AM
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I know this is a very serious topic - and this short message has a moral :)
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atty1chgo
1029 posts
Jul 30, 2014
5:54 AM
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"5) If you have the dough, you can go to jam camps or pay for lessons with some of the top names. This somehow seems antithetical to living the blues life and paying your dues."
"And there's something great about that attitude. Blues harmonica, as a discipline, has been pulled into the orbit of New Age self-realization. This weekend you might go fire-walking. Next weekend it's blues harmonica."
"Blues jams have become a source of free entertainment for club owners."
Well now, there is a simple solution for all of this. Don't let people get up and play unless they have the chops. Period. Just don't. Then maybe much of the buzz out there in the hacking amateur group of persons who wish to play publicly, not just this instrument but any instrument, might be tempered for the good of all concerned. Only the true believers, those who are completely dedicated to the craft, should be allowed to progress publicly.
I'm not making a joke, I am serious about this. Stop enabling people in this manner. And when they do get up and suck, tell them the truth. That way the vast majority of the painful sound will cease, and maybe only the most dedicated will continue the fight until their skills merit public display. Isn't that they way that the pros did it in the past? They cut heads. So start the heads rolling.
Last Edited by atty1chgo on Jul 30, 2014 5:57 AM
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The Iceman
1874 posts
Jul 30, 2014
6:25 AM
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Jam Camps have become the "dream camps" of the baby boomers w/disposable income (for the most part).
I don't feel they are as deep as finding the traditional style mentor or attending Augusta Heritage Blues Week, but they do serve a purpose.
btw, did anyone attend this year's Blues Week?
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The Iceman
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atty1chgo
1031 posts
Jul 30, 2014
6:34 AM
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Remember when the movie "Urban Cowboy" was released circa 1980? There was a huge interest in looking like a cowboy (at least one that was out for the evening after a hard day's work) or a cowgirl. Country bars sprang up like so many weeds, the clothing industry mass produced fancy jeans, belt buckles, boots, hats, you name it. Why any young man who wanted to show their skill at being a "cowboy" might take their turn on the mechanical bull. And all of the fancy Dan's would get on the contraption and try their luck. It was a macho thing. Those who had skill were evident, but even this was fake, because it wasn't getting up after being thrown by a real bronc or bull. It wasn't REALLY learning how to ride, just like playing at a blues jam really isn't like learning to play music (for the duffers anyway).
What is the difference between someone who doesn't know how to play, but who gets all of the latest gear, dresses in black with a blues hat and shades (indoors) and posing as a blues man at blues jams, and those faux cowboys in the cowboy bars of the 1980's? Absolutely nothing. They are caricatures.
And what happened to this craze? It faded into obscurity, a part of societal history. It was a trend that faded. I predict that the blues harmonica craze, at least that part that everyone is complaining about, will fade as well. Things will be back to normal in a few years, and the craft will be saved.
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atty1chgo
1033 posts
Jul 30, 2014
7:31 AM
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Let me put it another way.
I am an attorney who tries cases in court. Quite often, people will represent themselves, either because they don't have the money to get an attorney, or sometimes (I am guessing) they watch a lot of TV shows like People's Court or Judge Judy or something like that, and they think that they can do it themselves. But they have a RIGHT to do so. For an attorney, it is a bit tougher to try the case if the judge gives the non-lawyer leeway in court with regard to the rules. But even when they do not, things do not go smoothly. This is what we are talking about: an amateur entering the arena of the professional.
Nine times out of ten, the DIY lawyers get their ass kicked, as they should. They should because they don't know the rules of evidence, they don't know how to ask questions, they don't know how to negotiate, and they are stubborn in their ignorance. The attorney fresh out of law school is easier to deal with, but things may still be choppy. In these situations, there is some skill, and the earnest right to learn, but also the RIGHT to be there. There is NO such right on a music stage.
The point is that an amateur entering the arena of the professional SHOULD reap amateur results absent acquired or natural skills. Professional lawyers control their "stage" - to the extent that they can - by the use of headcutting. If the pros don't control their stage, the results are their responsibility.
JMHO.
Last Edited by atty1chgo on Jul 30, 2014 7:32 AM
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Tuckster
1446 posts
Jul 30, 2014
7:44 AM
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atty1chgo While I don't totally disagree with you,my sense of fairness and equality rails against the exclusivity. If it's an open stage,anybody should be allowed up to play. Where else can you get that kind of experience? Some of my best learning has come from making a fool of myself. It's a good reality check.
Last Edited by Tuckster on Jul 30, 2014 7:46 AM
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kudzurunner
4826 posts
Jul 30, 2014
8:03 AM
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Let me be clear about what I think of jam camps and mass teaching events, including Joe Filisko's annual teach-in at SPAH: I think they're great! I'm not saying that there's something fundamentally flawed with them. They are a good thing for the blues.
BUT: They're only a good thing for the blues if the everybody's-a-jammer, conquer-your-fears ethos is hardened with something a bit more stringent--something that gives jammers a sense of the way that the blues world actually works, and actually used to work.
I think that every jam camp should make a space within which some core values of the blues can be communicated. Those core values are NOT all touchy-feely. They don't accord particularly well with Jon Gindick's big bear-huggy Big Lebowsky persona. In fact, they're the shadow side of that. And one reason why Jon is successful is that he, too, has a shadow side--a badly wounded side--and it sometimes flashes out at people during his camps (especially his teaching staff) in uncomfortable ways. When I worked for him, he hadn't yet found a way to put it all together. He overemphasized the get-over-your-fears element but didn't really say, "Respect the blues," because he himself didn't come up through an Old School blues culture where he learned that value. (To his credit, I think he knows that and senses its importance, which is why he was very smart to make R.J. Mischo--as Old School as they come--a part of his team.)
In any case, I'll say it again: jam camps are good. But they need to teach the full spectrum of blues-knowledge, not just skim off the cream and say "If you overcome your fears and get up there and wail, you'll feel great and everybody will slap you on the back and tell you how great you were even if you really sucked." Of course, nobody ever utters those last five words, but that is the creed.
The creed should include more stringent stuff, like "Watch, look, and listen before you play." "Take your woodshed work seriously." "Respect your blues elders; they know things you don't know." And "Respect the music; don't wear a gangster hat, jump up on the bandstand, make a lot of noise, and think you've suddenly become cool. You haven't. You've become an idiot in the eyes of people who actually play the blues. So take it slow, newbie. But you WILL get there, if you hang in for the long haul."
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 30, 2014 8:08 AM
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Frank
4960 posts
Jul 30, 2014
8:50 AM
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He even insults "buskers" at the 1 min mark...enjoy :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jul 30, 2014 8:55 AM
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BronzeWailer
1361 posts
Jul 31, 2014
3:26 AM
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Nothing wrong with buskers! Some of my best friends...
BronzeWailer's YouTube
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Frank
4966 posts
Jul 31, 2014
4:44 AM
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Some of mine too, Paula was really upset that he said the guy sounded "buskerish" ?
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BronzeWailer
1362 posts
Jul 31, 2014
5:23 AM
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I am in my fourth year of busking. It's been fantastic. If I do ten years, I reckon I can learn a lot. We hit the streets tomorrow!
BronzeWailer's YouTube
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Frank
4967 posts
Jul 31, 2014
5:54 AM
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That's a great accomplishment Eric, I'm sure your proud of that...yeah , if you make it to 10 - you'll be ridin high by then :)...I don't even know what Simon meant by a "buskerish" sound anyway?
Last Edited by Frank on Jul 31, 2014 5:55 AM
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mr_so&so
848 posts
Jul 31, 2014
8:19 AM
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I've been reading this thread with interest. If I understand Adam's posts correctly, his point is about respecting blues tradition in this modern culture where traditional values are in flux. With seemingly everything available to us via the Internet 24/7, we start to expect that everything is easy (and "free").
I've benefited from that, but I've put enough time in now that I know what it really takes to be not only a harp player, but a musician. It takes years and years of hard work and cultivating relationships. If I were really serious about making a living as a blues harp player, I'd be searching out a mentor. And I wouldn't expect that I deserve a mentor. I think Adam's message is basically "Respect. Don't expect".
I am also aware that blues has deep roots as a folk music tradition. Folk music is by definition accessible music. You don't need fancy schooling or expensive instruments to join in. Folk music is inclusive music. I think we shouldn't forget that either. There is a place for jam camps and bar jams. Participants and their audiences just need some reminding that these are (modern) forums for that welcoming part of the blues tradition, where newcomers can learn, show what they can do, and mess up. Getting invited to sit in with pro bands is something completely different, that amounts to initiation into elite circles. There should be no expectations about that. That requires the shed time, respect, and all the other human interactions that constitute payment of "dues".
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dougharps
701 posts
Jul 31, 2014
9:33 AM
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I strongly agree with mr so&so, particularly the last paragraph.
There is a need for folk performances of music including those players whose abilities are not ready for the stage with a band. More experienced players in these amateur performances can guide those of lesser skill, and give them feedback and suggestions to improve.
Just learning how to comp and not to play over everything is needed information. Learning to listen with big ears and watch the leader for cues are needed skills. I started learning theory and performance skills from experienced musicians in casual jam situations. I did not have just one mentor, but a number of experienced musicians saw potential and offered me encouragement, criticism, and tips over many years. I also sought out musical information and practiced in my self directed fashion.
When it comes to performing with working bands, it is by the band's invitation and should be restricted to those whose demonstrated ability will enhance the music and won't hurt the performance. I am fortunate in that after playing in the area over the years, a number of bands have issued open invitations for me to sit in with them. This includes blues bands, folk, bluegrass, and rock bands.
You DO have to establish that you know when to not play, and that you have the ability to add to the music in a positive way. Bands are justifiably wary of random harmonica players.
I earned gradual acceptance, with musicians who had confidence in my ability introducing me to other musicians. When I was introduced as being able to play at that level and demonstrated it on stage, I started being offered more opportunities. The studio work, invitations to sit in, and offers to work as a substitute or a sideman in band gigs came from these connections and by establishing a level of competence. (not mastery or star like playing, just journeyman competence)
Once you are being invited to sit in with different bands, it can be a real skill builder. You need to approach it as a serious task, working to improve the overall music and only cutting loose when given the go-ahead.
You can learn a lot sitting in. But you don't start out there, and have to earn it.
EDIT for typo
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jul 31, 2014 9:35 AM
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barbequebob
2665 posts
Jul 31, 2014
10:20 AM
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The last two posts says a lot that many players NEED to learn and this is all stuff that you will NEVER learn in textbooks, You Tube videos, open jams or harmonica jam camps and many of these lessons are going to be hard lessons that often takes YEARS to learn, the kind of stuff you NEVER learn in a few months or 10 easy lessons, and many of the lessons along the way are going to be quite humbling.
Here's a video Adam just posted on YT that says it all and it's all the truth:
You can learn from sitting in, BUT sitting in with a band doesn't automatically mean you're now a great musician and you can brag how great you, which I've seen some players do.
People may not like what someone like a Simon Cowell says, but from my own pro experience, there are plenty of people in the business who are going to be very brutally honest and if you're thin skinned and take everything personally, you've got no business being in the business because even for putting something out there on You Tube as someone NOT being a professional, you ARE opening yourself up to that and here's where having thick skin becomes important and some of you have bitched and moaned about being criticized in just this forum alone and then get flustered and lash out at people, which pros have told me NOT to do. If you can't take criticism on a harp forum, God help should you turn pro because you ARE gonna get some of that and the only thing you become is your own worst enemy.
In the video, just as I've said tons of times and also what Waltertore has pointed out, the vast majority of those old pros didn't give a rat's ass bout gear and so many harp players can't seem to talk about anything else but gear and for those gear heads, who often have far more great gear than actual playing ability (go ahead, rip me to shreds, but it's a truth that I stand by 100%), think that's what's gonna make them a monster harp player, which is nothing but 100% total BS, which is kinda like the old tale of Samson and Delilah, where once Delilah cut off his hair, he was weak, and in some ways it's also like a drug addict has a seemingly hard time functioning without their drugs, and the gear heads, like it or not, are very similar in this respect, and too often they don't really take the time to REALLY learn how to play and want a quick fix for everything.
Where Waltertore said that 1% of the conversations he had with old masters he worked or hung with was about gear, from my own experience, that's the same for me. Good gear and really good skills are two TOTALLY different things.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Little roger
9 posts
Jul 31, 2014
11:53 AM
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Can't really add much but Bob (and the great YT video by Adam) say it all. That's just how it is.
Best
R
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Frank
4971 posts
Jul 31, 2014
2:41 PM
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“An exceedingly confident student would in theory make a terrible student. Why would he take school seriously when he feels that he can outwit his teachers?”
? Criss Jami
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BronzeWailer
1363 posts
Jul 31, 2014
4:06 PM
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@Frank. Some buskers seem to just make a lot of noise without caring about audience reaction. They can sort of play but are often not very musical Maybe that's what he meant by "buskerish."
There has been a lot of comment on knowing when to lay out.
Three things I learned from my teacher about when not to play:
1. Don't play on top of the vocals.
2. Don't solo all the time, because when it comes time for your solo, you'll have nothing left to say.
3. If you have nothing to say, STFU.
BronzeWailer's YouTube
Last Edited by BronzeWailer on Jul 31, 2014 4:07 PM
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nacoran
7894 posts
Jul 31, 2014
4:10 PM
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One problem I've found with open mics is it's hard to get an honest critique. Great acts get thunderous applause. Newcomers get thunderous applause. People who are friendly get thunderous applause. Really, you to get no applause you have to go in and be obnoxious to everyone and offend everyone before you go up and then suck when you do.
That's very useful for someone trying to get over nerves and it's a supportive encouraging environment, but it doesn't fill the mentor role well. It can, like I said, serve as a practice session and get you over stage fright, but it's not as useful as having someone who can tell you, hey, your rhythm was off and your tone was off on your bends and you missed the change on the second time around. (Recording yourself can help a bit with that as long as you have a good ear.)
The question is though, is it your fault if you go up on stage and everyone says your great or is it everyone's fault for not being honest, or is it other performers fault for being too thinned skinned that creates an audience that is afraid to be honest?
It's funny, when I was a kid my friends and I used to brutally insult each other. I remember my mother used to get angry at us for it. I wonder though, if that sort of banter isn't maybe a little useful for thickening up people's skin. Dealing with criticism is something you can practice, just like anything else. That's not to say you should walk up to a stranger and point out that they are so ugly the garbage man is likely to pick them up if they stand by the curb, but being able tell someone they need to word on their tempo is good for them. You don't need to tell them that they smell like a hair clog right after it gets pulled out of the tub drain, and you don't even have to go out of your way for it, but a lot of people wouldn't give an honest critique with their tender bits hanging over a blender.
Seriously, I'm a guy who can play well at an open mic. When I've had time to practice a song enough with a band I can play moderate level stuff and as long as I don't get nervous I can sing a little too. A whole string of things can derail my performance- I'm no where near that pro-level where I can just jump up and jam on a song I don't know in front of a bunch of people and nail it even most of the time, but I've gotten good enough that I can at least hear when I'm sucking. On a good day I can walk of the stage and smile to myself. When someone I know can hear how bad I sucked tells me I was fine it's frustrating.
I still think music needs to be accessible. As long as I see someone getting better week to week I'll listen to anyone at an open mic, or even a lousy opening band for a band I like. There are people though who don't get better who go up week after week. Even then, if they treat the other acts with respect, I don't care. The guys who used to burn me up were the guys who'd walk in, sit with a group of friends and be so loud you couldn't hear the other performers, then go up, play, and leave. I guess, I think, down at the purely amateur end I think part of paying your dues is sitting through all the other acts respectfully, offering any constructive criticism you have if asked.
So basically, please don't suck, but if you do, be respectful of the venue and the rest of the audience. If you don't suck and someone asks for an opinion be honest. You don't have to mention that their 4 bend sounded like their mother last night, but at least let them know they were a little out of key. If you are a good band, still respect the audience and other performers. Have some idea what the music is about. Don't wink at the girl in the front row when you are singing a creepy song, don't be the white guys using the n word, don't be the rich guy singing about filthy beggars or whatever. Know the context.
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Frank
4992 posts
Aug 02, 2014
6:27 AM
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This lady here is crackin the whip on a new show she has out :)
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waltertore
2731 posts
Aug 02, 2014
6:40 AM
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I think one problem today with the decline of live music is the amatuer players love to get onstage and play but don't come out in similar numbers when the pro is in town. Thus the open mic concept and amatuers playing gigs for free/paying to play, is a no brainer for club owners who are in the business to make money not subsidise art, and this trend continues to explode as the pro gigs shrink. I remember when I based my band out of Brussels Belguim for 2.5 years we did lots of gigs in Europe that were in clubs that only opened for shows. They were subsidized by the government and were truly doing it for the art sake. America is about the dollar and professional live music can die for all it cares if more money can be made some other way. This has all come to pass. I also remember when the DJ started appearing. they came in the clubs we were playing and we were getting $200-1000/night and they asked $100. They carried records and a stereo system. Most clubs hired them and fired us live bands. I told Roy Smeck this(google him). I was hanging with Roy at the time and when I told him this he said that was nothing. When the radio and record came out he said 90% of pro musicians were out of work. I guess mankind has been working at putting live music out of business since day 1 and with todays technological advances exponetially advancing each year it won't be long before live music by professional musicians is just about extinct. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
my videos
Last Edited by waltertore on Aug 02, 2014 10:30 AM
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Goldbrick
575 posts
Aug 02, 2014
6:44 AM
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We know who Roy Smeck was
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waltertore
2732 posts
Aug 02, 2014
6:50 AM
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Goldbrick: Thanks for posting that. I figure most people never heard of him. He was huge in the day with his own signature line of guitars, ukes, instructional material. He and his wife lived in NYC and I went by their place to visit. Roy wanted me to join his group but I knew(and still don't know) nothing of music theory. He said he would teach me. I was really mixed up with that because it didn't interest me but he fascinated me. Then Louisiana Red appeared in my life. He never spoke of theory and offered me to move in with him on the couch. I jumped on that. I remember Roy talking of so many things about music/hollywood in the 30's and that Segovia was one of his best friends. Roy was a master of working with no effects and making sounds that if the youth of today knew who he was would be copying his stuff asap. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
my videos
Last Edited by waltertore on Aug 02, 2014 7:09 AM
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Joe_L
2494 posts
Aug 02, 2014
8:31 PM
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I don't think that mentors are that hard to find. I think the challenge is that most people have zero appreciation for the tradition or digging deep.
1. When RJ Mischo started a jam at a local bar, he used all sorts of local talent. He had band members with deep blues pedigree. When major touring acts passed through the area, he would often hire those guys to back him so they could make their tours a bit more profitable. What was the response? To people in the know, they were grateful and he would let us sit in with those guys. To the vast majority of know nothings, they were just some chumps hosting a jam.
2. Aki Kumar hosts a nice little jam. He has some fabulous players come through there that tour all over the world. They garner zero respect from the know nothing crowd. These guys get little respect because they didn't play with some has been 70's rock band. So when these great guys blow through town, few people know their music, so the guys who did their schooling get to play.
3. I played at a very well known jam in the area. I had the chance to play with some quality guys that know little about blues music history. I was leading the band. When they asked what I was going to do, I told them a Sonny Boy Williamson style shuffle. The guitar player looked at me with a puzzled look. I told him it was a Robert Jr Lockwood style shuffle and turned around and heard him, the bass player and the drummer talking.
"Who are Robert Jr Lockwood and Sonny Boy Williamson? "
"I don't know. Probably some old dead black guys."
I change the tune to a simple box shuffle but you can probably guess how well that one went over it sounded really stiff.
it isn't really hard to do homework. you don't really need a mentor. what a person really needs is an open mind a willingness to listen and a place to start. There are a multitude of books and magazines the people can consult to learn about blues music history. Unfortunately that requires work that most people are unwilling to do.
I live in an area with a great music scene. there a lot of great blues performers here with a deep rich pedigree. there a lot of great harp players to learn from. Unfortunately you see very few harp players showing up to peoples gigs.
David Barrett has got an incredible set of interviews with great players that learn to the old school traditional way. they all tell a very similar story, but it's amazing to me how that story falls on deaf ears. Walter and Bob tell very similar stories. Both of those guys are extremely patient. They repeat themselves over and over and over and over again but people don't seem to listen.
the funny thing is quite frequently the people that everyone raves took a very traditional path. it isn't an easy path but it's a proven path. a lot of people have taken that path and have done well.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by Joe_L on Aug 02, 2014 8:44 PM
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Kingley
3656 posts
Aug 03, 2014
1:42 AM
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I agree with Joe on the whole jam thing. A lot of people just don't do their homework. I find this to be the case with lots of musicians on all instruments. I know an awful lot of drummers who can't play a shuffle or who can't swing. They don't even know there are different types of shuffle. I know so called bass players who don't know what a walking bass line is. I know piano players who don't even know a single left hand pattern. I know numerous guitarists who don't know what a box shuffle, harmony shuffle, etc is. They don't even know what a 2-5-1 turnaround is. They don't know how to play any chord in blues other than a seventh. Many of them don't understand how to play rhythm. I know many harp players that should just chuck the damn thing in the bin. So many people I know listen only to one or two records and think they know how to play blues. When they blatantly haven't even listened to those records properly, let alone any other blues music.
On the other hand I know a handful of players that know so many artists and specific songs inside out. They even know the intricacies of versions of the same song by different artists. They know so many different ways to play blues it'll make your head spin and have an intimate knowledge of the music. I jump at every single chance I get to play alongside any of those guys.
Last Edited by Kingley on Aug 03, 2014 1:49 AM
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Goldbrick
581 posts
Aug 03, 2014
6:12 AM
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I believe Adam's vid is aimed at the more serious player.
For many folks tho, music is just a fringe hobby.
Sadly many choose to hack at blues because the format can be simple and its kinda cool to tell your buddies you are a "bluesman".
They wouldnt know Little Walter from Little Joe Cartwright. They are the people tho, who will pony up 5 grand for a Les Paul standard and a Marshall 'cause their hero plays one. My amigo who is a well knwn guitar tech calls them " stockbroker and lawyer guitars"-they keep him in business because they cant even change strings
I find it best to stay away from those people because they are happy at their level and they are " musicians". Nothing wrong with that - anymore than the guy who plays golf twice a year or buys a harley off the shelf " custom"
Dont expect to convert them - just stay away
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Frank
5008 posts
Aug 03, 2014
6:59 AM
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The Players that most of us whole heartily admire, respect and in awe of their talents are the Harp Players who "wanted it so much" > the immense skills that their hero's had -
that they have dedicated their lives studying their Hero's every nuance's with a fine tooth comb and they leave no stone unturned to "get it all"...
That takes TONS of extreme discipline to unlock the hidden mysteries of the styles of the Great Harmonica Players of the past.
There are levels of harmonica playing - with in the simplest licks of Rice Miller or John Lee or Jimmy reed etc that most of us ain't never going to attain.
Sure we may play the notes - But the Pros, Rick and Kim etc. have the understanding of every tiny breathe and dynamic etc. they made to get the lick or notes to sound the way it does.
Their listening skills are off the charts.
Point is, that others have made too, most of us are in it for FUN whether we are giggin or not - compared to the Pros who have dedicated their very lives to the Art Form, sure they make their shows a big fun party, but - deep down, those Mother Fuckers are SERIOUS AS HELL :)
Most of us try to ACT serious about the blues and harmonica...But lets get serious - it's only an act!
Last Edited by Frank on Aug 03, 2014 7:17 AM
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Kingley
3658 posts
Aug 03, 2014
7:24 AM
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Whilst it's true Frank that most people are indeed in it for fun. That is still no excuse for ignorance and just plain and simple stupidity. I've lost count of the amount of times I've gone to a jam and heard somebody (especially on harmonica) who can't even play a single note, let alone bend any notes and they proceed to blow and suck the living shit out the damn thing and play right on a vocal mic all over everything from beginning to end. What's even worse is that they then believe that they are in fact brilliant and really are a musician. Sadly I often hear the same level of non ability with most other instruments too. The only exception I've found generally speaking is saxophone players. They generally seem pretty rounded musicians and know when and when not to play.
To me if a player can't even be bothered to understand even some of the basics of their instrument and understand a very simple chord sequence like a 12 bar blues. Then they really have no place being onstage.
Sadly like Joe said though, the whole "jam night" thing seems to have made that kind of non ability and piss poor performance acceptable. When I first ever went to a jam it was weeks before they allowed be to get up and play. I kept asking, they kept making excuses. Eventually after about six weeks or so of asking and being ignored. I asked if I could get up in the break and just play some solo harp accompanying a friend of mine who sang. They looked at me like I was nuts, laughed a little and said sure if you want. We did two country blues numbers and I just backed his vocals with my harp. The following week as I walked in the door, the harp player in the house band looked at me, handed me his mic and said we're in the key of A.
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waltertore
2733 posts
Aug 03, 2014
7:35 AM
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The vast majority of people that call themselves musicians will never forgo their other life that pays the bills to follow music blindly. In other words it is a hobby. I think with the birth of music forums lots of hobbiests get to pretend they are more than that. For most on these forums if someone with a pro/deep mentoring backround shows up it is a welcoming thing. But for a small amount it seems to really upset them to the point of responding in ways that if were done in the flesh they might find themself laid out :-)
That is all fine with me but what saddens me is the big picture of live music dying and the way of teaching it dying too. I lived my every breath for nothing but music until my early 40's. My life was based on this and thus through the theory of - the universe provides all one needs- I was able to mentor under many of the greats. One thing that never transpired in these experiences was me paying to be around them. It was done out of the need to do it on both sides. I would help in ways I had skill-fixing the vehicle, bodyguard, roadie, cooking, etc. IMO once cash starts to flow the entire relationship changes and it becomes a business transaction/commercial venture. Sadly most pros in the blues are having to do this just to eat. The community needs to stand tall and support live music and make it vibrant again. In other words turn off the gizmos and go out and experience as a audience. this means not getting to play but learn. This is dying off in our right now society and if you have the $ you can make wrong right :-) Passing on the blues tradition historically has never entailed exchanging $ and the presence of it in such a thing messes it all up. I have been to these seminars and I have seen people teach with a fear ladden undercurrent of losing the audience/paycheck. In a real mentorship it is friendship and this bad vibe is not present. I am so happy to not be playing for $ anymore because it continually messed with the art and I welcome anyone with a passion knocking on my door and will welcome them just as I was welcomed by the greats. Anyway, I am happy with my current position with music and hope you all are too! Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
my videos
Last Edited by waltertore on Aug 03, 2014 10:21 AM
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WailScholar
5 posts
Aug 03, 2014
9:54 AM
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There's a central questions here. What should blues pedagogy look like?
We are now seeing the result of massively diffused informal learning network. Adam's (and others) great videos, websites, and access to pretty much every recording known to man all combine to make a large network of free educational materials.
One of the consequences of massively distributed and inexpensive educational materials is that the vast majority of people don't actually learn very well from them. The main issue is that people stop their learning early, or never actually engage. This is seen in the MOOC world, where nearly all who enroll in these free college courses never actually do the work.
This is in part because feedback is difficult to acquire - you get the content for free, but knowing when you've mastered something is generally something we need other people to do. Without feedback people generally have a limited ability to evaluate themselves. While they are playing they are burning up cognitive load figuring out how to play, and thus are not able to reflect on the quality of their playing.
One traditional way to address this is to develop (for lack of a better word) standards, or levels of mastery that people can work through. Another traditional way is to arrange learning materials in a sequential manner.
In contrast to this, many informal harp education materials have a 'just go for it' attitude, including many who say you once you know the blues scale, a few licks and bends, that you are ready to go perform. Ask to sit in. Go to a jam. Etc...no where do I see "you need to be able to do X, Y, and Z to Xa, Yb, and Zc levels before you take your harp out of the house." While jam forums have some feedback, much of it is beginners complimenting beginners. Even more expert feedback simply tells people what to do, and not how to do it.
Informal learning is fraught with many problems in this and other regards. Still, it is a powerful tool, particularly when availability of information is so low that the knowledge is in risk of dying.
In short - what we are seeing is likely a result of the pedagogy design - informal, not sequentially organized, with little quality feedback, and without a culture of high expectations. There is also the issue of scarcity. Now that these materials are available, and will always be, it is difficult for people to treat it as a scarce good which demands their full attention.
Sry for the academic speak - pedagogy design is an academic interest of mine.
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jnorem
484 posts
Aug 03, 2014
10:00 AM
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I really enjoyed that analysis, WailScholar, and I have to say that I agree with it.
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Call me J
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Ugly Bones Ryan
104 posts
Aug 03, 2014
10:22 AM
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I agree. While I've practically screamed for inovation in the blues I couldn't be playing with Murray The Wheel (modern blues-rock group) without having some sense of tradition. It's important that people LEARN from tradition but move it forward once they grasp it.
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Littoral
1130 posts
Aug 03, 2014
10:38 AM
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I appreciate WailScholar's extensive post and I agree with his thoughts. Pedagogy, I call the art of teaching and learning. It's also (very much) an academic interest of mine. I'd emphasize focused reflection as an essential component but that's really just different language for some of the points he made. The immersion with mentors may be the most illusive piece and I think the crux of Adam's pitch. On;ine interviews are great and they could provide a support reference to negotiate the meaning of topics like player/band/club/audience interactions (code} that are typically subtle but essential, but still can't sub for the real thing.
Last Edited by Littoral on Aug 03, 2014 10:43 AM
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Littoral
1131 posts
Aug 03, 2014
10:45 AM
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*Can somebody initiate a list of online blue people interviews? I know Barrett has some that I've really enjoyed but I'd love some help finding others.
Last Edited by Littoral on Aug 03, 2014 10:46 AM
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Joe_L
2495 posts
Aug 03, 2014
11:21 AM
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Why don't you pick your favorite artist and Google them.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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Frank
5012 posts
Aug 03, 2014
12:04 PM
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This should suffice :)
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Kingley
3659 posts
Aug 03, 2014
12:40 PM
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The interesting thing about all those interviews is that you only really need to watch/listen to a single one and you'll find the answers if you really want too. If you take the Barrett interviews for example. All the players basically say the exact same thing about what makes a good harmonica player and how to learn to play. There is/has and always will only ever be one simple answer. Pure hard work, endless amounts of listening, repeating/imitating what you hear and eventually playing with other people. That is the only path there is too take if you wish to improve. Whether you use online lessons, an in person teacher, a book or a bunch of records. The path is always the same.
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nacoran
7897 posts
Aug 03, 2014
1:11 PM
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In one way at least it's great that there are lots of untalented guys going out and playing. Say we have a theoretical instrument, lets call it the zaboomaphone. It has the potential to sound great, and there are all sorts of technical things people could learn. The problem is, right now, 10 more or less randomly self-selected people play the zaboomaphone. What are the chances any of them are great? What is the collective pool of talent they can draw from? How effective will they be at evangelizing the instruments to other players, or even drawing new fans in? The zaboomaphone makers, how much money are they going to spend developing better zaboomaphones?
How many of my record purchases were made based on the harmonica content before I played harp? After?
I really think we have a bias to hear 'lousy' harmonica. If you go to any open stages and really listen to the guitar players there are guys there who have hear, 'What key?' and then ask 'What chords are in that?' and guys who can't play to the song, just doing riffs that let them show off. Think of jams as the place where you pay your dues. Yeah, it sucks that the guy can't bend a note, but if you are playing a jam, that's what it's about. You go down to the jam to play. Sometimes you will the be the best guy in the room. Sometimes you won't. If you just practice to a record, how do you learn to handle it when someone else decides to yell, 'One more time through the chorus'? or when someone goes to the wrong key? You hear stories of bands that were friends before any of them could play that all decided to buy instruments, but most bands I've met started when one member met another out on the local scene. Jams are open auditions. They are places to teach the next generation and they are front porches where people who live in apartments get to go play loud. I love the music I hear people post on this site, and I try to learn from it, but any day, give me getting to play. If I show up at a jam and don't know the tradition, teach me the tradition.
I remember we had a songwriter's circle. When Bo Diddley died a local blues guy showed up and told a story about the 'shave and a haircut two bits' rhythm.
As we get farther from the headwaters, water from more sources is going to mix in. It's great to have someone who knows their SBW and Little Walters, but what if the guy at the jam it steeped in Pearl Jam? At some point you start arguing over which tradition is more pure. We can decide to learn all the traditions, but that is probably impractical. Now obviously, even although there is a little bit of harmonica in Pearl Jam Eddie Vedder isn't going to be remembered as a harmonica great, but you can steal from sources that aren't just harmonica. I'm all for exposing people to the classics, but what if we say, well, you are using major and minor scales, so you have to study early Western church music and since you are playing harmonica you have to be well rounded in German Oompah tradition.
Now clearly, there are some techniques it's worth learning from people who really knew their way around the instrument and maybe one guys explanation of how to overblow is better than another's (for you?) but any time you start talking about traditionalism you have to start defining a canon and once you start defining a canon you are ultimately going to have to start pushing people out of it and making rules.
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Nate
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