Rick Davis
146 posts
Feb 02, 2010
8:29 AM
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OB's are OBsolete! You can play all the chromatic notes on a diminished-tuned blues harp using only simple bends. All the notes sound full and they "fit" into the blues harp tone, not like thin OB notes. And you only need ONE harp to play in any key.
Check out this thread.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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ZackPomerleau
624 posts
Feb 02, 2010
8:46 AM
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I don't think that tuning will stand a chance considering you lose the ability to play chords and split chords. Of course, that is, unless you WANT to play diminished chords.
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ZackPomerleau
625 posts
Feb 02, 2010
8:46 AM
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I don't think that tuning will stand a chance considering you lose the ability to play chords and split chords. Of course, that is, unless you WANT to play diminished chords.
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Rick Davis
149 posts
Feb 02, 2010
9:50 AM
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Zack, you CAN play some nice blues chords on the diminished-tuned harp, but you have to tongue-block. That's not too hard, is it?
If you heard AC Blue play his harp I know you would be impressed: Great tone on all notes. You could overblow on any note if you wanted to, but you would just have the note of the next bend!
It is funny that OBers object to the idea of a diminished harp because it might be -- you know -- too hard or too different.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2010 9:52 AM
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nacoran
965 posts
Feb 02, 2010
9:59 AM
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GH, saregapadanisa, awesome!
GH, I can see one flaw in that instrument. For years many guitar players have suffered with carpal tunnel and other wrist related problems because of the awkward angle the neck needs to be to hold the strings. That doesn't have strings but they don't do anything to make the neck more accessible.
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barbequebob
419 posts
Feb 02, 2010
10:58 AM
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This pro/con overblow argument sounds more like hearing the old school chromatic harp players talking crap about the diatonic and the idea of jsut bending a note when all of them are there on the chromatic.
With that being said, it's about 2 generations later of harp and all I have to do is change from the chromatic arguement and replace the bends and the diatonics to the overblows and I almost have to laugh at how similar these arguements are, tho no one on either side is gonna want to admit it.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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ZackPomerleau
634 posts
Feb 02, 2010
11:01 AM
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Rick, do overdraws suck? Get the joke, hahaha :)
But, it's not that it's too hard but I can see its limitations, but that being said the standard diatonic has those limits, too. I can definitely say I wouldn't want to use a million different tunings, but this one seems cool. I wouldn't use minor tunings, though.
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nacoran
974 posts
Feb 02, 2010
11:48 AM
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So I just got some overblows, but only on my tremolo. What's up with that?
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ZackPomerleau
636 posts
Feb 02, 2010
11:51 AM
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but each reed, like a valve harp, is blocked off from each other. Sorry I can't remember the correct term. This allows an easy overblow, sort of like that discrete comb.
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ZackPomerleau
637 posts
Feb 02, 2010
11:51 AM
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but each reed, like a valve harp, is blocked off from each other. Sorry I can't remember the correct term. This allows an easy overblow, sort of like that discrete comb.
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nacoran
977 posts
Feb 02, 2010
12:16 PM
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Yeah, I think that's it Zack. Dave Payne has a video about it. I think I'm going to have to try one of those discrete combs. It's a pain isolating a single row on a tremolo.
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MrVerylongusername
881 posts
Feb 02, 2010
12:21 PM
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Zack, you got an echo
Zack, you got an echo
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Ev630
30 posts
Feb 02, 2010
12:23 PM
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"I don't think that tuning will stand a chance considering you lose the ability to play chords and split chords. Of course, that is, unless you WANT to play diminished chords."
How is that a problem for overblowers, since I rarely hear any chord work when they play blues? In fact, I can't think of one time I've heard any chord work from an OB player on a blues cut. It's all pucker single notes stuff and a whole LOT of that.
;)
But I agree with you - that harp will never take off. One harp all night? Most of us are gear heads. Who could live with one harp? Not me!
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2010 12:24 PM
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ZackPomerleau
640 posts
Feb 02, 2010
12:30 PM
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Ev, you're the best. I play lots of chords, though hahaha. I don't think any harp will ever take off, it's kind of a narrow minded market, I guess you could say.
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HarpNinja
124 posts
Feb 02, 2010
12:38 PM
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Scooterbox
This is a rough mix (and for whatever reason the harp is missing from the head in the middle and end of the track), but I am too impatient to wait for the final mix to jump in. The head has three different overblows and a blow bend.
A good ear can hear them, but you can't tell me that with all the bends going on it the obs stand out more than the others to the point of ruining the song. Close, maybe.
I think I use one ob in my solo at the end.
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Mike Fugazzi
http://www.myspace.com/niterailband
http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail
http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail
http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
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ZackPomerleau
641 posts
Feb 02, 2010
12:39 PM
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Ev, you're the best. I play lots of chords, though hahaha. I don't think any harp will ever take off, it's kind of a narrow minded market, I guess you could say.
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kudzurunner
1057 posts
Feb 02, 2010
12:42 PM
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"I can't think of one time I've heard any chord work from an OB player on a blues cut. It's all pucker single notes stuff and a whole LOT of that."
@Ev: I'm afraid you're 100% wrong, at least where my own playing is concerned. (And I'm pretty sure you're very wrong where Carlos del Junco's and Jason Ricci's playing is concerned, too.) I never play OB's WHILE tongue blocking, but I'm constantly mixing together TB'd octaves, double-stops, three note chords, and overblows. On the brief clip I posted on another recent thread, I do this. I've done it for 25 years. When I'm playing fast single note lines, I tend to play lip pursed, and OB's are sometimes part of those lines. But sometimes I play TB'd single notes or octaves on the high notes and then rapidly switch to lip pursing when I want the 6 OB, for example.
Maybe I'm the exception that proves the rule--and I DO explode the rule, in fact--but I think that Carlos does lots of stuff that involves funky TB octaves interspersed with OBs.
I don't know whether you consider my original composition "Thunky Fing" to be a blues song, but the opening sequence is a good example of what I'm describing above. It starts on a bent 2 draw expanding into a 14 octave. Then TB 7d to TB 6d to 5d (lip pursed) followed by 5OB (lip pursed).
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2010 12:46 PM
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HarpNinja
125 posts
Feb 02, 2010
12:47 PM
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I think Ev630 was just kidding. Hence the wink. I think. I hope he was, anyways.
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Mike Fugazzi
http://www.myspace.com/niterailband
http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail
http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail
http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
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Ev630
31 posts
Feb 02, 2010
12:53 PM
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I was just teasing. I like Zach's descriptor "narrow minded market" - brilliant! You could say that about all of us harp nerds.
Let's get this clear - I like some of the OB work that some blues guys use. Subtle is best and I hear that in Adam's playing and in Ian Collard's playing - using an OB to get up the harp is cool. I won't do it, but I think it works.
But when over-used it simply lets the side down. Listen to the first track off Carlos' first CD. It's cool, it's amazing, but it sounds kind of hinky to my rusted-on blues-genre loving ears.
Sorry.
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bluzlvr
308 posts
Feb 02, 2010
1:48 PM
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@GermanHarpist. I took one of my bad Special 20 Bb harps and taped off the blow 6 reed and put the covers back on.
I pick it up just about every day and concentrate on trying to get the six blow overblow to sound.
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Ryan
115 posts
Feb 02, 2010
5:41 PM
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"OB's are OBsolete! You can play all the chromatic notes on a diminished-tuned blues harp using only simple bends. All the notes sound full and they "fit" into the blues harp tone, not like thin OB notes. And you only need ONE harp to play in any key."
Well I wish you luck with that, I'm sure it could have some interesting results. But the fact is it would be like learning a completely different instrument. You're going to have to spend a lot of time retraining your muscle memory(even to play the simplest things), where as OB's are just adding a technique to what you already know on a regular tuned harp. A lot of the great/classic sounds or riffs on the harp simply aren't going to work on that harp, I'm sure you'll be able to figure other interesting things that are possible with that harp but it's going to take a long time to match your previous repetoire.
Not to mention that you loose an whole octave with that tuning. And if you decide to play it in multiple keys (or every key) you're only going to have about 1 complete octave (plus some notes above and below)for several of the keys.
This may be a good option for someone who is just learning to play the harp, so they don't have to completely retrain their muscle memory and understanding of the layout (they're already starting from scratch). This is assuming they don't mind the fact that there are virtually no learning materials to help them learn with this tuning. And they're going to have an extremely hard time trying to immitate what they hear other great harp players playing.
All this isn't to say that this isn't a perfectly legitimate route to take. I'm know it can be done (and done well I'm sure) with interesting results. I just don't think this is more logical than learning and using OB's, in fact it's going to require a lot more to play that tuning well than to simply add a new technique to what you already know. You also have admit that you lose a number of things with this tuning (example: octave range).
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2010 5:45 PM
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Rick Davis
160 posts
Feb 02, 2010
6:07 PM
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Ryan, the obvious advantage that the diminished harp has over the OB technique is that it SOUNDS BETTER when playing the same notes. If a player is interested in how he sounds -- and not just adding "techniques" -- the diminished harp is a viable route to go.
I've heard the diminished blues harp played VERY well (two nights ago) by a guy who'd never heard of diminished tuning just 3 years ago. He was an accomplished cross-harp blues player.
Overblowing is not hard, and neither is learning the patterns on a diminished harp. You only need to learn 3 new patterns to master it. Then you start at different positions up and down the harp for different scales. You can use a 12- or 15-hole harp if you need more octaves, but I think you'll find that a 10-hole diminished harp has wonderful opportunities for high note bending. It sounds great.
Here is my point: I love the music, not the instrument. I'll use whatever instrument I think sounds best. I won't force a square peg into a round musical hole. Overblows often sound glaringly out of place; they do not have the timbre and depth of notes that are derived in more traditional ways. If a player thinks overblows sound okay, that is fine with me. But I know audiences sometimes cringe when OBers hit those notes to show off their new "techniques." That, my friend, is the tail wagging the dog.
Overblows are just like everything else about the harp: They are easy to play badly and VERY difficult to play well.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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HarpNinja
126 posts
Feb 02, 2010
6:08 PM
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"NOTE: I am about to express an opinion that may be unpopular and may engender arguments. Let’s keep this civil. Please don’t send me insulting emails. It’s only my opinion." - Rick Davis
Does this only apply to everyone but the original poster? Lol.
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Mike Fugazzi
http://www.myspace.com/niterailband
http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail
http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail
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Rick Davis
161 posts
Feb 02, 2010
6:21 PM
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Mike... I don't know what you mean.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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HarpNinja
127 posts
Feb 02, 2010
6:32 PM
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Rick, it is easy to suck at a lot of things. So yes, overblowing poorly is easy when compared to doing it well.
You have gone past the point of opinion into forcing your reasoning on others and a tremendous amount of double talk. Obviously it is not ok in your mind to overblow. This troubles me as it seems to be creating a lot of tension, and I feel bad you have such an attachment to this.
How would you react if someone had to continually post over and over how your playing and what you value should be obselete, wrong, and is musically inferior to another approach? Of what value is this to anyone? It isn't contructive criticism, you are not enlightened to anything unique, and you are alienating your peers - several of which have successful music careers and the respect and admiration of fans across the globe.
Look at the success of Carlo, Jason, Howard, etc. You can try all you want, but overblowing is something of importance right now. If that one day is no longer the case, I think I could let go of it...whereas I am sure some will still be holding onto "traditional" only blues harp with their cold lifeless hands.
Read some comments from fans of said artists and tell me they cringe. The fact is, for some, their music has been a life changing event whether harp player or not.
Finally, I can't argue that there is a line of tasteful and not tasteful in music, but your over generalization shows that you need to work on listening to overblowers who aren't closet players with three years experience posting on YouTube (not that I am singling anyone out directly as I have no idea if this is the case with anyone here).
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Mike Fugazzi
http://www.myspace.com/niterailband
http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail
http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail
http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
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Rick Davis
162 posts
Feb 02, 2010
6:42 PM
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Mike, I still don't know what you mean.
In my post just above yours I said, "If a player thinks overblows sound okay, that is fine with me."
I've said over and over again that I admire players like Adam and Jason and Christelle who can do it so well. There are others I'm sure, but those are the three I can think of. I don't hate OBs or think they are inherently "bad." I just have a different opinion about them.
I think I know how you feel, though...
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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Rick Davis
163 posts
Feb 02, 2010
6:48 PM
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Mike, just to be PERFECTLY clear, I am not criticizing anyones playing, especially not yours. I think you play very well.
Attacking someone's playing as a way to score points in an argument is reprehensible. I don't have anyone in mind when I express these opinions about overblows.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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HarpNinja
128 posts
Feb 02, 2010
7:04 PM
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I understand you're not directly attacking anyone, but you can see how some would take it personally to a degree...and thank you for the kind words.
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Mike Fugazzi
http://www.myspace.com/niterailband
http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail
http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail
http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
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Ryan
116 posts
Feb 02, 2010
9:37 PM
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"I've said over and over again that I admire players like Adam and Jason and Christelle who can do it so well."
I really don't undstand what you're saying then. You can't say that OB's sound bad, and then say you like when certain players play them. If that's the case, then it seems clear that it's not that OB's sound inherently bad, it has to do with someone playing those notes badly. Do you criticise bending just because some players play bends badly? Not to mention, even when played well, they quite obviously stick out. In my opinion a well played bend on the low end sticks out more then a well played overblow, especially to those who don't play harmonica.
I think you need to remember that just because you don't think overblows sound good, doesn't mean that everyone else (or even most people) agree with you. It's certainly subjective, but the way you talk about it makes it seem like you assume most people (both harp players and non-harp players) agree with your assessment, which I honestly don't think they do.
Here an example:
"the obvious advantage that the diminished harp has over the OB technique is that it SOUNDS BETTER when playing the same notes. If a player is interested in how he sounds -- and not just adding "techniques" -- the diminished harp is a viable route to go."
I don't think it does sound better(you act like it's a fact). And I think it's kind of offensive to insinuate that people who choose to use OB's aren't interested in how they sound, and are just using OB's to add another technique (which is quite clearly not what I was saying in my other post). I don't want to speak for Mike, but I think this is probably part of what he was talking about.
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2010 9:52 PM
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Rick Davis
165 posts
Feb 02, 2010
10:09 PM
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Ryan, I think you're violating the MBH creed with your ad hominem argument about my motivations.
You know what I think about overblows. When played well they are a thing of beauty. I've seldom heard them played well. The music is the thing, not the technique. You don't get extra points for attempting overblows.
And I think I'll leave it at that.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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phogi
230 posts
Feb 03, 2010
3:40 AM
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Ok...enough already folks.
Someone lock this thing before its too late.
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Ev630
32 posts
Feb 03, 2010
3:42 AM
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Why lock it? That would be kind of weak.
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GermanHarpist
1070 posts
Feb 03, 2010
3:48 AM
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Rick, no 'ad hominem' attacks as far as I can tell. "And I think I'll leave it at that." - please help to preserve the peace and stick to your word.
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germanharpist on YT. =;-) - Resonance is KEY!
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Pimpinella
65 posts
Feb 03, 2010
3:52 AM
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I agree, time to lock it. Doesn't look like there will be added anything of value.
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Ev630
33 posts
Feb 03, 2010
4:17 AM
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No you're right. Better lock it. The last thing we want is a free-wheeling debate.
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GermanHarpist
1071 posts
Feb 03, 2010
4:24 AM
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Everything's been said (over and over ;). It's been a good discussion. It's time this thread RIP. Please refrain from carrying on this discussion on other threads (i.e. this one). Thanks.
***ATTENTION***
Please do not add further comments to this thread until it has been reviewed by the forum owner for possible breech of the forum rules. It will be considered OK to continue with this discussion once this notice has been removed.Thank you for your co-operation.
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germanharpist on YT. =;-) - Resonance is KEY!
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2010 4:32 AM
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Ryan
117 posts
Feb 03, 2010
4:41 AM
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"Ryan, I think you're violating the MBH creed with your ad hominem argument about my motivations."
Wow, I really think you're stetching it, quite a bit.
It's impossible to know what someone's intentions truly are, which is why I never claimed to know what you're actual intention or beliefs actually were. I was simply responding to what you wrote, and how I believed many people could interpret what was written. I never said that was what you actually you actually believed or intended. Perhaps the word insuate wasn't the correct word to use, but I think if you reread the things you wrote, you may see how what you said makes it pretty easy for one to interperet that way. Whether or not that's what your intentions were or what you actually believed (which I don't think it is) wasn't my point, I was simply going by what was written. Just like someone can make a racist comment with out actually being a racist or meaning to offend, someone can call out that comment as being racist/offensive without saying/believing that person who said it is a racist or intended to say something racist/offensive. That's how it should be done because you can never know what the believe/intended, but that doesn't mean you have to ignore what was actually said.
What exactly is it that I said that you believe to be an ad hominem fallacy? Because I honestly have no idea what you could possibly be talking about. I really don't see how it applies to anything I said.
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Ryan
118 posts
Feb 03, 2010
4:47 AM
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"You know what I think about overblows. When played well they are a thing of beauty."
Have I just completely misunderstood everything you had been arguing? Is this not a contradictory to the main points you've been arguing this entire time? Weren't you telling us how OB's inherently have bad tone and stick out like a sore thumb? And now you're saying they can be a thing of beauty?
If this is true then I don't see what you've been arguing about. If that's really what you believe, then you agree with what people have been aguing with you: The problem isn't OB's, it's people who play OB's badly, no different than someone who plays bends badly. And just because you hear plenty of people who are bad at bending, it doesn'y mean it's not a great technique that can sound good in blues as well as other styles of music.
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2010 5:18 AM
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GermanHarpist
1072 posts
Feb 03, 2010
4:56 AM
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Ryan, are you blind?
***ATTENTION***
Please do not add further comments to this thread until it has been reviewed by the forum owner for possible breech of the forum rules. It will be considered OK to continue with this discussion once this notice has been removed.Thank you for your co-operation.
EDIT: Ryan, I apologize for that remark.
I was kinda aroused when posting. You're right, it was a rude and snarky remark and I should have said it differently.
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germanharpist on YT. =;-) - Resonance is KEY!
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2010 5:49 AM
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Ryan
119 posts
Feb 03, 2010
5:04 AM
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Excuse me?
I was in the middle of typing when you posted that. And I think if someone adresses me and accuses me of something I should have the right to respond. Furthermore if Adam wishes to closes this thread, he can certainly come in and lock it. But I think it's ridiculous that you can personally decide to tell people that they're no longer allowed to continue a thread for some arbitrary reason. If this thread had broken down into personal attacks or had drifted off onto to a a completely irrelevent discussion, then I could understand. But that is not what's happening here, people are having a disscusion, and it may have become somewhat "heated" but this board has certainly seen much worse. If it makes you uncomfortable you don't have to participate in said discussion, but telling other their not allowed to seems silly.
EDIT: I apologise for going a bit over the top in this response, I was just a little upset at how I was addressed, and I should have probably taken a minute to calm down and just let it go before responding. I did not realise you were a moderater and I regret, and feel a little stupid, having made some of those comments. It hadn't been my intetnion to just ignore your post, I just honestly hadn't taken the time to read any of the new posts when writing the second post(I had started writing it in the first post, and then decided to just cut and paste it into a whole new post, and I didn't go back to check any of the new posts), so that is my fault. Sorry.
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2010 6:12 AM
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GermanHarpist
1073 posts
Feb 03, 2010
5:07 AM
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I'm moderator on this forum. Please respect my decisions.
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germanharpist on YT. =;-) - Resonance is KEY!
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Ryan
120 posts
Feb 03, 2010
5:13 AM
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I see, then I will discontinue posting on this thread, but I not a fan of rude snarky comments(such as asking me if I'm blind), especially considering I had not even read you're post when leaving those comments.
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Helix
8 posts
Feb 03, 2010
5:16 AM
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I think maybe Rick gets off the track when he starts talking about peoples motivation to use overbends...IE technique showcasing put above well played music.
But.. I think anyone that has listened to enough harp knows there is something to what he is saying.
I very much like to listen to DelJunko and Ricci and Levey too but I know exactly what Rick is saying about the sound quality/ sound attributes of those overbent tones.
Somewhere in any piece of harp work that uses enough of them(overbends), I can hear a contrast in the resonance of some notes in certain runs.In other words it comes to my listening attention that overbends are heavily in use or in use at any rate.
I do not think that the use of overbending is wrong and I know that the use of overbending is here to stay. I only think it's fair to say that their is an element of oddness to the way some those notes sound at certain times.
If I were initiating a thread along these lines I would be more interested in getting to the bottom of why these notes seem to stick out at times rather than say that they are inappropriate or that they suck.
Questions like:
"Do overbends stand out at times because I listened to harp for over thirty years without overbends in use and only about 10 years with some tunes that have them?"
"Does it sound odd at times because notes are being used that were never played on a diatonic until more recent times?"
"Do the notes sometimes sound different because of the physics involved in creating them....IE a single reed vibrating from air flow opposite its normal playing direction?"
BBQ Bob is certainly right that there will forever be resistance to new techniques by practitioners that have a good number of years invested in the old ones...just human nature. But there is room in my opinion to discuss the acoustic attributes of notes played by any technique.
The one other thing I disagree with is the notion that overbending is easy. I think the fact that relatively very few players can make overbent tones blend or sound equal is proof of the techniques difficulty.
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Helix
9 posts
Feb 03, 2010
5:18 AM
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Yeah...sorry Mr Moderator but I had also begun writeing my post before you posted your notices.
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GermanHarpist
1074 posts
Feb 03, 2010
5:18 AM
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Ryan, I apologize for that.
I was kinda aroused when I realised that your second post was clearly started after the locking tag post. But you're right, it was a rude and snarky remark and I should have said it differently. My bad.
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germanharpist on YT. =;-) - Resonance is KEY!
Last Edited by on Feb 03, 2010 5:25 AM
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kudzurunner
1058 posts
Feb 03, 2010
5:35 AM
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We're done on this thread. Sorry about that guys. I'm sure you understand.
I appreciate GermanHarpist's apology, but I'm also coming to his defense.
Please note: WHEN THE MODERATOR POSTS HIS RED ADVISORY, IT MEANS THAT THINGS HAVE GOTTEN TOO HOT. It's time for everybody, at that point, to chill out. It's not time to demand that one be allowed one last post to defend onself and one's position.
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