@Zack yes I know. Blues Birdhead 1927. I posted that about 95 posts ago! I just quoted the 70s as this is when the technique started to be used by Mike Turk, Will Scarlett, Howard Levy etc...
It's kind of depressing as I really do want to think of the 70s as just a few years ago, but it really is history now!
@Kingley. Some people are saying they don't play them by choice, because it doesn't fit their traditional style. Absolutely fine with me. I play them at home in my practice, but I rarely use the in performance. Not because I think they suck, not because I can't.
My point was really aimed at the people who say they don't sound like proper notes. I hear some overblow players and I cannot pick out the overblows - seamless tone. I hear others and they stick out like a sore thumb. My point is it's the players fault - not the technique.
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2010 12:58 PM
Zack, i agree and i do not. A musician would want what he needs to make the music. Traditional german folk musicians tend to be happy with 7 notes - sometimes even less - and make up great music out of this. If you don't need overblows to make what you want you don't need overblows, period. On the other hand there are those who believe overbends are needless (because [fill in the blank] didn't need them or whatever). IMHO thats quite as small minded as believing in supremacy over non overbenders.
Rick has another point, he thinks overbends sound bad. I must admit that he's right in many cases. Still i think this problem will be solved in the next generation of players, those who learn to play them from the very start.
Let me add something to what i wrote in my above post. I'm not really a die hard blues lover, if there wasn't a deep love for the harmonica in me i probably wouldn't be much interested at all in blues. My true love has been always for electronic music though. I'm a big fan of bands like Depeche Mode, Kraftwerk, Bauhaus, Nine Inch Nails, The Cure... These musicians would use whatever toy they could get their hands on to make their music happen, but they would not use it for self purpose. They just use what makes the song work. This sometimes results in a bombastic wall of sounds and effects and noise, but sometimes (and thats true for all bands mentioned above) in very quite and minimalistic arrangements.
So it doesn't matter what you use, but how you use it. So Rick is right that overbends kill a song if they sound bad and Zack is right, that a musician would want all the notes - if he needs them to bring his music to life.
Zack, I wouldn't be that optimistic, overblows are not that "young". Overblows are there, and it's great, but we must sometimes aknowledge the limitations of our instrument. To be completely happy with OBs would mean that you can play them with the same sound texture than others notes, the same attack, that you can sustain them, and add vibrato on on them. And you're right, even Levy does it only "at times". I guess that, apart from devilish playing, the answer may lay in the future of harp making technology. For now, even custom harps do not fit the bill. But we're all waiting for the B-rad to save us, no ?
I notice something interesting... in this topic Dennis Gruenling is acknowledged as a great overblow master. He also has the other things everyone says are important.... tone, playing in the groove. Dennis really makes the harmonica sound like an amazing instrument. He is in fact a monster player.
So why isn't he listed on the other thread about the modern masters?
And I think that is where the kind of music you love comes in. He loves a kind of blues that is less commonly loved today.
I know that Dennis is capable of playing an occasional overblow, using his tongue blocking technique, but I don't believe he makes OBs a regular part of his playing, and I would certainly not have characterized him as a "great overblow master."
He IS a modern master, no question--and an innovator, thanks to his 12th position playing and low-harp stuff--but last time he and I crossed paths, a couple of years ago at SPAH, he wasn't, as far as I could tell, doing much with OBs.
Would somebody please post a video, or reference a specific song, where he's clearly weaving the OBs in? It will be big news to me, and I'm always happy to get big news.
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2010 3:03 PM
And while we're at it, it's probably worth noting that Dennis's first album, JUMP TIME, doesn't have much of any overblows in it--or at least I don't believe it does--but it's incredibly innovative. No straight-ahead blues players were playing 12th position blues in an amped-up, traditional/jump context when he did that. (Of course Howard, Buddha, and Jason COULD do that kind of thing, but none of them were doing so in an amped-up traditional Chicago/jump context when Dennis made that record.)
This reinforces the point that other have made: overblowing is one route to modern blues harmonica innovation, but it's not the only one.
"I hear some overblow players and I cannot pick out the overblows - seamless tone."
I can hear an overblow every time, no matter who does it. Every time. I sometimes think, "that's cool". But sometimes I think, "Almost but not quite."
Whenever I hear one in a blues context, no matter how well it's done, it sticks out like dogs balls because the tone is different - not just because it's an uncharacteristic note choice. If you could match the tone, I'd be interested, because I think that would be really something.
"I hear others and they stick out like a sore thumb. My point is it's the players fault - not the technique."
It's also to do with the limitation of the actual technique - or rather the technology. It's affecting the reed differently, producing a different tonality. That's why no OB player can get the same fat tone produced by tongue blocking lower notes on a harp.
Zach wrote:
"Levy does it and you wouldn't even know at times."
That statement, to me, is an admission that it's not consistent.
phogi wrote:
"But not using them by intent is limiting. Which can be a factor for growth."
What growth are you talking about? We all need to graduate from blues or rock or country to playing jazz or melodic harp otherwise we are stunted?
If you think that not mastering one single technique is limiting, despite the weight of recorded evidence, then you are approaching music like an engineer not a musician.
It's often the case that various harp players will denigrate blues itself as a limiting form. The consensus is that blues is easy to master. But these people are only looking at the structure of the blues - they appear to know nothing of the use of the genre as an expression of emotion. And it invariably shows in their playing that while they may have mastered OBs or fast pucker playing, they are not as grounded in swinging phrasing, feel or tone as they imagine themselves to be. They sound like rock blues guys on guitar who are all over the fretboard but can't pull off the deep feel of the real blues cats.
There are millions of people on this planet who can play a 12 bar blues adequately on the harp, guitar, piano or whatever. But there are very, very few on any of those instruments that I would care to listen to on a given day.
Just because I play traditional blues harp does not mean I could not spend the time to play around in other genres and use other techniques. On an average day I may listen to Dave Myers, Wes Montgomery, Fairouz, Oscar Peterson, James Cotton, Miles Davis, Marcel Khalife, Bill Evans and Charlie Hunter on my iPod. How am I limiting myself as a musician? I know what's out there and play several other instruments. I CHOOSE to play blues harp within certain genre boundaries.
Whenever I read these posts by OB fanatics accusing me of limiting myself I am reminded of Sir Thomas Beecham's comment: "A Musicologist is a man who can read music but can't hear it."
"Take a Step," the very last song on JUMP TIME, uses the 6OB in the head--and the "Juke" riff too. It's tough to TB with your tongue that far in your cheek, I bet.
I've repaired/refurbished a few longslot prewar MBs and Old Standbys, and I seriously doubt that the stock vintage longslot Hohners could usually be relied on for more than a decent 6OB, if that. By "decent," I mean a stable note I would routinely attempt in public, not a pitchy squeak I could drag out of the harp at home.
Ev, look at it like this. If you play guitar you have the blue third in SEVERAL octaves, on the harmonica you need to overblow. That's where you're limiting yourself. Personally, I think everyone should at least do the six overblow, everything else can be forgotten about.
I like the way RD started this thread, with a plea for respectful dialogue. It stayed there for a while. Let's see if we can bring it back there.
After all, we're only talking about harmonica techniques. It's not as though something earth-shaking were at stake.
And since this hasn't been pointed out, perhaps it's worth noting that one of the most innovative, technically gifted, and distinctive blues harmonica stylists of the past thirty years, Sugar Blue, doesn't overblow.
Remember: I'm a longtime overblower. I use them. I love them. I highly recommend them.
But Sugar Blue is one of my chief inspirations--the speed, the flow, the high notes, the stress on "making it new." And he doesn't overblow. More precisely: whether or not he is is ABLE to overblow, and I'm sure he is, overblows aren't part of his musical vocabulary.
They're not needed. It's possible to push far beyond Little Walter--if that's the criterion--without using overblows. They're certainly a part of what I consider the general modernizing process of the instrument and the idiom, but they're certainly not necessary.
Just so that gets said, because it needs to be said.
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2010 5:26 PM
You're right, Zack, the 6 OB is convenient. The blues 3rd is obviously a crucial note, a note where you want to settle, where you even want to give a slight bent impulsion. And that is hardly done on the 6 OB (and I'm leaving the tone apart). If you care for consistent playing, that would mean that the use of the 6 OB can be used as a passing note, not much more.
There's nothing wrong with OBs, and there is no point saying that you should or shouldn't use them. But one must also aknowledge the weaknesses of OBing, and use it acccordingly. When even non-harp players can tell when a guy is OBing (even tremendously good players), there's something that doesn't fit. Our technical abilities and our musical intentions are one thing, but the key is not playing, it's listening.
I think a major piece is knowing which harp to use. If you have to use ALL bends and ALL overblows, then you're obviously in a bad position, unless you're trying for some kind of tone or whatever.
"Why do some OBers insist on insulting those of us who do not care to play overblows? I find that interesting, and very telling."
I think this is a pretty ironic thing to say. In my experience, 98% of the time it's non-OB's doing/starting the insulting. Most of the time when OBers say something insulting (which, I agree, is completely unneccessary) it is in response to someone insulting OBs and people who play them. I constantly hear people who don't play OB's saying things like:
"OB's SUCK"(sound familiar) "OB's sound like crap" "People who play OB's ussually just play a bunch of random notes, and it isn't musical" "I can't stand listening to people who play a bunch of overblows" etc. etc.
From what I've seen, people who play OB's ussually only get involved in childish insults when they've first been provoked by someone who doesn't play them. It's all so unneccesary.
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2010 6:18 PM
In my experience that sort of stuff happens on both "sides" Ryan. Is there anything in particular that I've written in this thread that was unreasonable?
Jon:"if you dont overblow you have less technique then those who do."
Jon, that's kind of absurd. You play overblows correct? Do you honestly think you have more technique than Kim Wilson? I sure hope not, because if so you're seriously deluding yourself. There is a lot more to technique than just being able to play every possible note.
I must agree with Ryan. I have nothing against non-overblowers. I don't exactly care for people though that decide to only play Little Walter and not try their own thing.
Wow. I did not think that there was ever going to be a more genuinely controversial thread than the rap music thread in which Mrvlun and I battled together against a veritable onslaught of hip hop haters. (how's that for alliteration?)
IMO, oveblows are just one of many techniques available to us harp players. Use 'em if you want, don't if you don't want. Just like any other technique, however, they allow for certain sounds that you CAN'T get any other way. So if you don't OB, you ain't gonna have that sound (does this argument sound familiar to any folks who have ever had pucker vs TB debate?).
In terms of technical ability, OB's are no hard than a normal bend on a properly set up harp. Like bends, OB's will sound like shit if you have not cultivated the technique. Unlike normal bending OB's either sound like shit or don't sound at all on a non OB set up harp, even if you have good technique (although I KNOW guys like Chris can OB with no difficulty on any harp).
If you HAVE NOT properly cultivated the OB technique, then any OB you do is very obvious. This is the same with normal bends; they, too, are obvious if a player has not yet cultivated the proper bending technique.
If you HAVE cultivated the OB technique, however, then OB's sound just like any other note, bent, unbent, whatever...
So here's the REAL question: If, with the proper technique, OB's can be made to sound just like any other note on a harp (and I believe they can), then what's the point of not mastering them? No Trad Blues harmonica player would ever say "Bending? Nah... Not worth the effort... There's 20 notes in the harp already! What do I need those pesky extra bent notes for?". Well, it's my position that no Modern Blues player would ever say "Overblows? Nah... who needs 'em! I got all my bends, and that's enough for me!"
I did some testing today. On a C harp, I was able to hit the 4, 5, and 6 obs in tune and with the same attack and vibrato as any other note. HOWEVER, even with perfect technique, I think they would be easy for a harp player to tell.
That being said, ANY bend stands out. People complain about ob tone and intonation, BUT you hear the same thing on nearly ANY blues solo with the flat third or fifth. Over decades it has become cool to bend notes and sound bluesy. Most the time, those blue notes are out of tune and stick out "like balls". Why is that ok in that instance? Because of the historical perception. We have trained our ears to tolerate that sound and even love it.
The part of this debate (and really there is no debate to be had...do or do not...there is no right) that I find laughable is the whole notion that they sound "different" when it is the different sounding traditional bends that are often the pinacle of what is considered awesome traditional blues.
Don't get me wrong, they need to be as intune as any other note, but let's get real! ---------- Mike Fugazzi http://www.myspace.com/niterailband http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
Zack, as for what you said about being innovative, I've got to say I pretty much agree with what the others have been saying.I understand what you were trying to say, but I think you were off the mark on that one. You can be exremely innovative with out needing to play OB's. I think Brendan Power is one of the more innovative harp players around today and he doesn't play overblows. I also think James Conway has done some pretty innovative things(some of the drone stuff he does is very cool, and there aren't many people doing it). There are many other examples I could give.
And let's not foget that OB's aren't the only way to play chromatically on the diatonic. PT Gazell, for example, has been quite creative/innovative with his half valved diatonic. I'm actually kind of surprised that no one else has really put much effort into playing chromatically in this manor. I wonder if OB's weren't possible, or had never been discovered, do you think playing chromatically using half valved harps would have become just as popular and widespread as OB's are now? Or do you think it would still be a fairly un-used technique?
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2010 6:52 PM
I'm confused for someone trying to understand the value of learning a new Technic this is doing nothing for me untill i joined MBH never heard of it befor,,so i understand i don't need it yes i do need it,,bet ya can't do it TB with ya tongue that far in ya cheek whats that all about i TB and trying to find out more about this Technic,,I'm Confused so Bro's i got me Adams Jassons & Chris Youtube OB vids will be checking them out over the comeing weeks,,Point me to some Yuotube clips with this technic being used point out at what times you know 3.00 to 4.00mins so i can hear this technic being used so i know what to listen for,,so what i know so far is i shouldn't camp at the bottom of a mountain the view from the summit is far better i do need this technic then again no i don't,,if i did use them don't tell any one they may think I'm showing of,,expect to get into a fight at my next Jam Night when some ignorant Player comes over and disses me for useing them or be thought of as a lesser player than some one else,,so i better get me some Ego to be flexing while I'm learning this new Technic,,yep I'm still confused hay but thats not Hard..
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2010 7:07 PM
Ryan, he doesn't overblow but he uses a valved harp, which can be chromatic using techniques. It is different than a common harmonica. Sure, you CAN be innovative with regular no overblows, but it's getting a lot harder to considering the no overblow style has been around for a VERY long time.
Nastyolddog, this probably isn't the best thread for those interested in learning about overblows(such as what they are, how they can be used, why would you use them, and how to play them). But fortunately there are plenty of other places on the web that can tell you everything you need to know.
As for the question of do you need them: No, you don't NEED them, BUT they can definately add a lot to your playing(just like bends). It's just a way of getting notes that aren't otherwise available. What you do with those notes, and whether or not you use them, is up to to you.
EDIT: Aside from the youtube videos you mentioned, which are great resources, overblow.com will have a lot of helpful information. Jason Ricci has a great video on using overblows in a blues context. That video is a great intro. into how to use these notes and the purpose they serve. That's an important thing to learn, because notes are of no use unless you know how to use them properly in the right context. Perhaps if you still have more questions we could start a new thread that concentrates specifically on that.
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2010 8:05 PM
Actually, Nastyolddog has a point. In all my videos on YT, I'm not sure that I've ever tried to address precisely the question he's asking. I should do a video that clearly lays out what overblows are and how and why I added them to my repertoire. I do this in some of the workshops I do, but I don't really think I've addressed it in a straightforward way.
@Ryan: If you're an overblower, then you need to cultivate the patience of Jesus. If we've got the stuff, we should preach to whomever expresses the slightest interest, and happily. Share the Word with those who seek it. Etc.
Zack, Brendan uses valved harps only for expression, not to play chromatically or get missing notes.
I assume you were talking about Brendan, if you were refering to PT, I explicately mentioned that he plays chromatically using valves. Mentioning PT wasn't as an example of being innovative with out OB's(or playing chromatically) I just mentioned him to say that OB's aren't the only option one has to play chromatically.
"Sure, you CAN be innovative with regular no overblows, but it's getting a lot harder to considering the no overblow style has been around for a VERY long time."
The saxophone has been around a long, and they've had all the notes at their disposal for just as long. Does this mean they are going to have hard time being innovative? Or is it just non-chromatic instruments(although I don't know why that would be). What about the dulcimer, can they not be innovative because they're not chromatic and have been around a long time? The chromatic scale has been around a long time, does that mean it's hard to be innovative? Just because something has been around along time doesn't mean most of it's possibilities have been exhausted.
I think your mistake is in assuming one needs to have every single note to be innovative. If this were true, people who play Indian classical music would think our western chromatic scale is limiting, and difficult to be innovative with. Innovation isn't all about what notes you play, it's about how you play, the style you play, etc.. You can be innovative rythmically (Little Walter certainly was). I think your idea of inovation is too limited.
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2010 8:08 PM
Adam, I wasn't trying to be rude at all, I was just letting him know that this thread unfortunately isn't the best place to find the answers he's looking for. All he'll find here is people arguing their opinions. But you're right, I should have pointed him in the right direction, instead of assuming he'd be able to find the info. himself. There's a lot of information out there and it can be difficult to find the what you're looking for. I apologise if it came off the wrong way and it seemed like I was blowing him off. That honestly was not my intention. I didn't want him to think his questions were simply being ignored in this thread, I just wanted him to know why he was hearing all this conflicting information and not finding the answers to his questions. Nastyolddog, I apologise if my reply came off in the wrong way.
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2010 11:48 PM
Why is it a problem if you can hear overblows out of the context? You can hear bends - at least two or three step bends - too. That hasn't been a problem for the last 100 years of blues playing.
"Why is it a problem if you can hear overblows out of the context? You can hear bends - at least two or three step bends - too. That hasn't been a problem for the last 100 years of blues playing."
Exactly. In my opinion a well played OB sounds a lot more like a "normal" note than some of the low end bends. Like the whole step bend on the 3 draw for example, now that can stick out like a sore thumb, but it can sound good/great when used in the right context.
Last Edited by on Jan 31, 2010 11:45 PM
Because those two and three step bends are in context because they are a long established element of the genre. If you have listened to a lot of the great blues stuff, throwing in an OB will stand out. That's why.
Hi Ryan Bro it's cool,,i wish to Climb to the mountains summet look far into the distance with my own eyes untill i climb this mountain im Blinded by another mans visions,,yes Pleaes Adam make a YT Clip that would help myself and many other Brothers and Sisters wishing to know more about this Technic.. Cheers
EV630, then we don't have a problem! Just lets wait a few years and have a lot of overblows played and soon they will be established enough that they won't stand out anymore. Just kidding ;)
Well, i guess he got lost a little and played the wrong notes at those timestamps, but the tone of those notes was IMHO fine. He messed up some overblows too. Somewhere around 2:30 for example, but generally like the way Mike uses Overblows very much
Follow up: Just in case your thinking of questioning my musicality for liking it, remember - the entire nation was swept off its feet by a well known singer/songwriter whose primary weak point was that he did not sing or play harmonica in tune.
Also, most of the big name jazz players (of every instrument) don't play with perfect intonation. Only exception is instruments where intonation is set by machine and can't be affected by the player.
Ryan, I meant P.T. And, the saxophone has been more innovative than the harmonica has ever been, for several reasons, and one being the fact there are several octaves in the instrument itself. The harmonica for the past sixty years has almost barely changed in playing style except for a few select players, and the ones who have changed it big time are overblowers who allow another octave of playing. That said, Kim Wilson is not a Little Walter impersonator, I never said that. But you know there are some out there that play because they think he is God.
Never said I liked them either. I think if you're whole point is to copy then you're in it for the wrong reasons IF it is your plan to do so forever. I personally do lots of chromatic runs in my blues playing so it is a little more Jazz oriented and I dig that. As long as ya sound good it's good methinks, wouldn't you agree? And, you should know, I may sound like I'm bashing Little Walter, but I really love his playing, he sort of helped me keep playing at certain times.
Bashing Little Walter or any Player,,sounds like most here have lost ya ear it's ok i did a while back fact only got it back last month or so back,,see i was mostly Home taught music books and DVD's being a Lip Pureser i heard tongue slaping i had to have it so i sort out a tuitor i start hanging around with my Teacher and his Bro's at gigs they would say listen to that Vibrato cool my ears where wide open hear that throat growl and so on it was fun i learnt so much just hanging around my Bro's Listening to technics being used,,not bagging my Bro's but after a while i would be listening to a band Hay he calls that Little Walter listen to that he's tone is shocking then other gigs again picking another guys technic to pieces like pulling wings of a Butter fly i was doing it to,,i don't know i just walked out of a gig one night after doing the same dismembering,Pow something hit me i thought wow i haven't even listened to the Band whats happend ive lost my music ears i want them back,,so now i no longer go to gigs to listen to a player i go to listen to the band listen to the music except it for what it is MUSIC and have some fun..Ps this is just my experience But im Glad i got my Music ears back..
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2010 5:09 AM
I just had a great first experience with a Special 20 (never saw them on sale before in Indonesia). I was getting every OB and OD right out of the box.
I went right into practicing blues scales in all 12 positions. After practicing just a few for a short time, it was clear it was opening up new riffs for me.
I was getting a really wild sound out of 4OB. Cant wait to try it mic'd.
Take a look at the list blues scales in 12 positions, and see how many have OD or OB in them. Rather than focus on the "boring" prospect of being able to play scales in 12 position, just think about what being able to run a blues scale starting from any hole on the harp could do for your blues playing!
Actually I don't care abut the technical abilities of a player. I sure prefer a player who is not using them over somebody who does them badly. The only thing that counts for me is how somebody uses whatever is available in his trickbag. Overblows, speed or crazy arpeggios cannot replace musicianship. To me Dennis Gruenling is great but so was Jimmy Reed. The most annoying thing to me is somebody showing off his "skills". I can't stand all that high speed noodling and squeezing a million chords and scales into a song. All that does nothing for me. I never liked it in my 25+ years as a guitar player and it will probably be that way in my questionable future harp career. That does not mean that I think that overblows are bad ... not at all. If somebody uses them as tastefully as Dennis Gruenling then I have the deepest respect for it. Still most of my favorite players don't use them at all.
I myself have not learned how to do them yet. I think there are more important techniques that I need to improve on first. As soon as I think something in my playing is missing and overblows will fill the gap I will try to master it but I won't use them just because I can.
I've just been tweaking my GM. I'm losing control of the bent 4 OB, so maybe I've opened it up too much. Also I'm ashamed to say that the 8OD is now much sweeter than the more useful 7OD (with bend). On its own the 8OD is useless, but it's very useful if you can bend it too up a semitone. ---------- Kinda hot in these rhinos!
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2010 9:05 AM
