Bluefinger, you have said essential words. Jimmy Reed wasn't like crazy amazing in a technical sense but man that music was something else. I don't think anyone could say anything better than that, Bluefinger!!!
Yes, as Rick Estrin says, Jimmy Reed didn't have a lot of technique... but he could play in the groove, in the pocket. Without the groove, it isn't music.
Nice tone, cool phrasing and a helluva groove... I am quoting Rick Estrin about Jimmy Reed.
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2010 10:04 AM
I find this really sad that some of the commentary from both sides of the aisle here resembles the thing that turned a lot of people off to Harp-L and sounds also like the current state of politics in Washington DC, and it sounds too often flat out SHAMEFUL!!!!!!!!!
Just because one has all those different skills doesn't mean a damn if what they're doing doesn't do the single most important thing when playing in front of any live audience, and that's CONNECT with the audience and that's too often something missing with a lot of players and that includes highly skilled players too.
Many players diss Bob Dylan, who technically as a harp player is no great player by a long shot, but the star of his show is his songs and sonwriting and NOT the harmonica and there are times this to overblow or not to overblow debate at times sounds like ego stroking at it's ultimate worst.
The old time chromatic players looked down at the diatonic and bending notes for years, and even more so with blues playing, period, and now it's like, just change the instruments and genres a bit, and the argument sounds largely the same like the same 10- basic plot lines of a freaking soap opera.
Come on, lighten up with this and show some real respect for each other because the snobbiness coming from BOTH SIDES is pretty nauseating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Here is a sound sample of a 4 overblow on Bb by Chris on the coast2coast site, it has the blow note followed by the pop to the overblow and you can clearly hear the difference in tone, and he has more control than most anybody. The sound file of the 6 ob is smoother than this
Along the watchtower is en example of Dylan's harp genius. It appears he picked up whatever harp was closest, found the notes that clashed the most severely with the key of the song, and wailed on those. And it works!
Whenever I play "honest I do" I have a VERY difficult time playing as few notes as Jimmy reed...or as squealy and dissonant as Jimmy reed. His style is not my style, but the song is recognizable the way i do it and I like his style too. Adam has an example of the same thing on his first position youtube. His version is more modern, less squealy and totally recognizable.
Overblows or no, There are many many ways to skin this harmonicat. Some of the "worst" playing is some of my favorite playing because of the feeling it evokes.
When I listen to a couple of videos i downloaded by Buddha, it is a whole different thing I am listening for than when I listen to Adam's or Jason Ricci's. I am listening for the overblows and the jazz feel, frankly. And many times, they are undetectable tone-wise until you try to play the run yourself...oh yeah...overblow right there. To have the 4,5 and 6 hole ob at that level is my goal for the future..undetectable in blues or any genre.
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2010 11:20 AM
"sure" might be overstating the case. it is difficult to hear the difference in quick notes. my point was a sustained note by one of the acknowledged experts does have a different tone, at least at times
at my skill level it often sounds like a rusty gate or a goose honking :-)
Congaron, the big secret to being able to use fewer notes and allow more space to happen is basically coming down to the groove and where you come in. If you're playing too much off t he 1 and the 3 (the white man's groove), it's almost impossible to avoid playing with too many notes, and the thing to do is closer to the black music groove when it comes to phrasing, and that's mainly off the 2 and the 4. BTW, if you're also playing ahead of the beat a lot, many people who do also tend to play a lot more notes than necessary at times. You also, in many ways, gotta think like a vocalist as well.
It's a trillion times easier for people to learn techniques than it is for groove and feel because groove and feel requires something too many people DON'T do, and that's pay attention to the subtle stuff, and the subtle stuff is a lot harder to learn.
Jimmy Reed is using the Marine Band and they were all tuned to 7LJI at the time, so that may be part of the dissonance you may be hearing. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Zack:"And, the saxophone has been more innovative than the harmonica has ever been, for several reasons, and one being the fact there are several octaves in the instrument itself."
The sax only has about 2 and a half octaves, the harmonica has 3. The fact that people that people haven't been as innovative in the past(all though I would argue that there are many old school players who very innovative, Butterfield for example) doesn't have do with the lack of overblows, it has do with the players. Some of the players I mentioned(like Brendan Power), who don't use overblows, have been very innovative, and I see any reason this innovate non-OB stuff couldn't have been done 60 years ago. They just made other innovations at the time, and for better or worse, most people have stuck with in those confines. It had nothing to do with the fact that they didn't know about/play OB's. As I said before, being innovative doesn't have much to do with how many notes you have available, it's how you use the notes that are available.
Not disagreeing with the bulk of your post Ryan, but remember the harmonica - without overblows and overdraws - has no complete chromatic octaves. Doesn't compare to the full chromatic scales on the sax.
MrVery, right, harp doesn't compare with sax's chromatic octaves. But sax doesn't compare with harp in term of expressiveness and dynamic (bending a note into the next one, bent attack, inflexion...). There's more than being able to play every note, and I guess that's why we play diatonic and not chromatic (or sax for that matter) And that's from former sax player.
Yes, I realise this, my point was just that the harmonica does technically have a bigger octave range(this doesn't neccesarily mean that it has all the chromatic notes) and how many octaves an instrument has doesn't make it more innovative(I think it's important to point that out because it shows that the octave range in this case is irrelevent and it all comes back to his original claim: that chromaticism is needed to be innovative on the harmonica). Do piano players have an easier time being innovative than sax players because they have more octaves to work with? I just don't think that having a large octave range, or having every single note available at all times, has much to do with being innovative. I think the reason the saxophone has seemed to have more innovative players is because in general they seems to be more open to the idea of innovation, and more players were willing to chances and try something different. I just don't think that it's something inherent to the instrument.
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2010 1:31 PM
I did ask Dennis if he uses overblows... here is what he said.
"I use them regularly when I see musically fit. And yes, I am pleased on a regular basis that even pro players don't notice my use of them. The technique is always the means to the end (music), they shouldn't be the end themselves."
Yes, makes me think of something I read about playing and improvisation.... "You need to have technique to burn.... having more powerful and flexible means available to us than we need in a given situation"
Man, I would KILL if I could get even a squealing overblow. I've been trying for years using every trick that's been posted on the internet and haven't even come close. This includes gapping, taping off the six blow reed on one of my bad Bb harps, Buddahs straw trick, using one of my custom harps etc. I've heard that you need to master the blow bends. Well, I mastered those years ago. I'm starting to think that the inside of my mouth is shaped wrong or something. If I could get those notes, I would definitely be using them...
walterharp, "at my skill level it often sounds like a rusty gate or a goose honking :-) " same here. Listening to tinues chromatic scales makes me, at least, believe that it is somehow possible to make them sound (pretty much) equal.
To the subject of the saxophone being used in more innovative ways. It has very little to do with the possibilities of an instrument or that sax man would be more innovative than harp players.. (???) doesn't make any sense. It is rather the case that there are simply much more people playing sax, or guitar, and so there is a lot of innovation on these instruments.
So, how innovative an instrument is used basically comes down to two factors. How many people play that instrument and for how long it was in use - and no matter how 'easy'/'constricted' an instrument may(!) be we humans will make it as complex as we want it.
And on that subject I think the harp has A LOT of potential still to be discovered...
Still room for innovation, Zack, no worries.. ;) ---------- germanharpist on YT. =;-) - Resonance is KEY!
blzlvr, did you try taking off the covers and putting your finger on the blow slot and then trying it to sound? ---------- germanharpist on YT. =;-) - Resonance is KEY!
Two pianists. One has a full keyboard, the other has half the black notes ripped off; both are accomplished players and skilled improvisers.
The results would be very different, but equally skillful. One has the freedom to extend beyond the constraints of the diatonic scale, the other working harder to express within those constraints.
Both valid: both focussing their skills in different areas.
One time (in a former band) the guitarist played his solo very differently from normal. The song had two solos, usually he played both with a very rock, SRV influenced sound, but on this occasion he played more laid back, cleaner licks, fewer notes, but heaps more emotion. He got a huge cheer from the crowd. It wasn't until he had to change guitars after that I realised he'd broken two strings in the first solo. That's when I realised just how good he was!
GH, Mr. Levy DID open a lot of windows, though! hahaha. I think, though, people missed my point. If in the 1940's people knew of overblows, do you think maybe the harmonica would have been used in Jazz and there would have been Coltrane's of the harmonica? Because of that lack of knowledge, it stayed stuck for awhile. Personally, I am happy I live in this time period, we're at a point where the potential of the harmonica is growing rapidly. I think one of the biggest innovations of the harmonica was the customization of them. Thanks to that we now have a LOT more possibilities. It does make me wonder, though, did Blues Birdhead intend to overblow in that recording, or was it a mishap...We'll never know!
GermanHarpist, I'm with you on innovation. Innovation is not built in in any instrument. We may perceive sax as more innovating, but in that case, we're only speaking jazz (ever heard of classic sax or folk sax innovating ?). And jazz is typically a style where both performers and audiences value innovation per se (whatever the instrument). Harp is rooted in folk and blues, and the perspective is different. Maybe even the "audience" is (or used to be) more conservative. Whatever the instrument, the native repertoire and the audience has a meaning. I'm not going to try playing fractal music on my harp, however innovating it can be. But room for innovation, there is.
re: Blues Birdhead It sounds very deliberate to me Zack. I think he discovered the overblow by accident and kept the technique to himself. Back then you had to have an edge to stay ahead of the field. There was no Adam Gussow 'giving it all away'
Might be so, it's so strange how there is no other example until around 1969 or so. Sare, the saxophone isn't more innovative, but it has gone through more stages of innovation, I suppose.
GH- I think more people probably play harp than sax, but the schools teach sax, so you probably have more sax players who get to a certain level of proficiency.
Zack- Bigger Chroms will have the same range as a sax, but of course you trade the diatonic's sound for that.
MVLUN- I'm not sure I agree with your piano analogy. The piano, even without it's black keys, has all the notes for one key all the way up and down the keyboard. Modern keyboards can even be re-tuned, so if you were missing the black keys you could retune it to a different key. But that's the key thing with a harmonica, if you want to play in a different key you can grab a different harp and you have at least the center octave.
Me too, it makes things so much easier, it just makes more sense. There's Japanese company that makes a keyboard based on this system. I think it's called a Chromatone or something like that. YouTube has videos of people playing them, and it's amazing how good some of the people have gotten at playing them(some of them in a relatively short period of time). I really want one, but they're pretty expesive (I think around $2000), and it looks like it's difficult to get one, I'm not sure if they're being mass produced yet.
What is the big deal if overbent notes sound different from regular notes? Anyone who is concerned with that could just get a valved harp and be done with it. OBs have their own unique thing going on.
In the Michael Peliquin clip its more the fact that his phrasing wanders away from the key that makes the notes stand out and not necessarily that they are overblown notes. ---------- http://www.youtube.com/user/asilve3
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2010 7:13 PM
I couldn't tell where the overblows were buried Adam, I was too busy trppin' on the fact that you got a bike! Maybe a Honda? ---------- The Art Teacher Formally Known As scstrickland
Hi Bro's i don't know what im listening 4 I'm not going to cope out i had me a listen a few times will listen again and again and again it's messing with my brain this is from an untrained ear that don't know what he's listening for ok,,i think i hear something differnt to my ears 13 i think i hear a sort of run i guess from around 15 secs to 18 secs but after that they nore hiden im not sure 21 48 finished overblow Like i say I DON'T KNOW WHAT IM LISTENING FOR I LISTEND AND TRYED TO HEAR PITCH CHANGES DON'T BAG me i had a go,,Ps i don't want Adam to answer this question untill a few others fall flat on there faces like me allso,,
Hi Bro's i don't know what im listening 4 I'm not going to cop out i had me a listen a few times listend again and again and again it's messing with my brain this is from an untrained ear that don't know what he's listening for ok,,i think i hear something differnt to my ears 13 i think i hear a sort of run i guess from around 15 secs to 18 secs but after that they are more hidden im not sure 21 48 finished overblow Like i say I DON'T KNOW WHAT IM LISTENING FOR I LISTEND AND TRYED TO HEAR PITCH CHANGES DON'T BAG me i had a go,,Ps i don't want Adam to answer this question untill a few others fall flat on there faces like me allso,,Cheers Have a Go Don't Just Blow
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2010 10:04 PM
"What is the big deal if overbent notes sound different from regular notes? Anyone who is concerned with that could just get a valved harp and be done with it. OBs have their own unique thing going on."
What's the big deal? How about an analogy? How about if you were playing a tenor sax and every time you hit certain notes instead of sounding fat and brassy they sounded like a kazoo? That's the big deal.
OBs aren't bad. But if you use them in the context of a fat amplified blues and aren't careful, they often stand out in a bad way. We've read here how Gruenling can throw them in judiciously and they fit. I think Ian Collard and Adam Gussow do a good job of that, too. But a lot of what you hear on Youtube isn't in that class. When you hear a whole slew of them in a phrase they often fit about as well as brown shoes with a tux.
"In the Michael Peliquin clip its more the fact that his phrasing wanders away from the key that makes the notes stand out and not necessarily that they are overblown notes."
Isn't your observation missing the point? This is a chicken and egg issue. In my view those notes are off BECAUSE he's using OBs.
You can go to Youtube and find videos by any of the guys who use a LOT of OBs or are famous practitioners and you'll hear this problem.
Drop one in a phrase moving up the harp in 2nd position - no problem. Actually that reminds me - Dennis Gruenling's comment that top blues guys don't notice when he drops them in... Of COURSE they notice. But why would they say anything? If it fits, it fits. These guys aren't harp nerds and it's not like hearing a phrase like that is going to rock their world. This stuff registers subconsciously and is forgotten. It's not like it's important.
I'll get back to my original point. I have no problems with OBs. I don't use them because that is my artistic choice. I only have a problem (and not really a big problem) with narrow-minded folks who sometimes tell me I am limiting myself as a musician by not using them.
Last Edited by on Feb 01, 2010 11:32 PM
Can anybody tell me where the overblows are buried in this brief woodshed clip?:
Adam - got any slow blues with lots of OBs in there? Tunes with nice slow swooping notes like the solo on "Can't Sleep From Worrying" off the Ludella CD?
"Can anybody tell me where the overblows are buried in this brief woodshed clip?:"
Adam -The majority are played or "buried" roughly between the 0.08 and 0.20 second mark. Give or take a couple of seconds. There are also a few right near the end. Right?
There are a couple of overdraws (I'm guessing the 7 overdraw) in there as well. Right again?
I think a lot of innovation will come in the future from masterful choice of position playing, innovative phrasing, and select use of overblows to arpeggiate the changes accurately. It will take time, but it's gonna be brought to a new level.
Ev, I'm just going to say it this way, each instrument has it's own timbre properties. The harmonica's is obviously quite known, and the bent notes and overbends are part of it. I suppose if you don't like it, that's cool, but it's unique to the instrument and I think if you manage to do them well you'll find they are quite nice.
I know there are a lot of posts here, but I will once again bring up the point that ALL bent notes have a timbre different then non-bent notes. You're flatted 3 and 5 that blues guys go nuts for is more often than not out of tune and of enough change in timbre any harp player can tell it is an "out" note.
However, the popular belief is that that is cool sounding. Most overblow players aren't nearly as good as it as they should be - comprable to someone learning to master a 2 or 3 draw bend. Also, this whole conversation is overwhelming proof of how a good harp makes a huge difference.
Most harps, even when embossed or well gapped, still squeal and don't let the player bend the ob up to pitch.
And I totally agree with BBQ Bob's last post. Just because you can ob doesn't mean you're a great player. It also doesn't mean you have more technique than a non-overblower.
How many ob players who are really really good at it are also totally proficient in tongue blocking and able to play a tb'ed style blues??? ---------- Mike Fugazzi http://www.myspace.com/niterailband http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
Ninja, I know this is monotonous, but I have heard Levy do tongue blocked blues really well. You know, I once recorded a version of the song Someday My Prince Will Come, albeit rough, in eighth position and thanks to the massive bends and overblows the harp have a trumpet like tone. They have their place.
My point is that just because someone can overblow that doesn't mean said player has MORE technique than someone who doesn't.
Being an ob player doesn't equate to awesomeness in much the same way that being able to play one harp in 12 keys doesn't.
Granted there are a lot of players that are awesome and do these things, but they aren't mutually exclusive.
This is coming from someone who just finished a CD with harp parts in 2, 3, 4, and 11 positions. I have YouTubes up playing 11 and 12...I overblow/draw liberally...so I am totally in favor of the technique.
But that has little to do with how "good" I or anyone else is as a musician.
Listening back to the rough mixes the thought popped in my mind that I could have been more flashy in my playing (I don't think I used any cuts with overdraws, I chose to not play 12th on a song that I typically do live, I could've used more ob licks, I don't think I play the 2 and 5 draw double stop and bend the 2 down to the octave...). But I almost instantly realized that had it been what was right for what I was playing, I would have played it.
Lots of ob players do use technique just to use technique (which often needs refining). While great practice ideas (like playing in all 12 keys on one harp) there are often more musical and tasteful ways of playing that take a back seat.
Note that I am talking in generalities on most of this and not saying there aren't counter examples. ---------- Mike Fugazzi http://www.myspace.com/niterailband http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
@Kingley: I struggle for a 6 ob a couple of times around :17-20. I think I throw it in one more time towards the end. I don't believe I do the 4 or 5 ob. I do NOT do any overdraws!
But I do use the 6 draw bend at one point (:10, and again, I believe, at :47-48) to imply the VIdom7 chord--a favorite trick of mine. (It's the major 3rd of that chord.) I'm a one-trick pony with that note, but it's a good trick. It's an example of how innovation doesn't require overblows. I figured a few things out 25 years ago when I was exploring blues variations and realized that 5 b / 6 d bend / 7 d could give you the root/third/fifth of the VIdom7 chord in cross harp. No big deal for Howard Levy, but for me it was huge--because Little Walter didn't do it, Kim Wilson didn't do it, nobody I'd ever heard was doing it. I still don't hear anybody doing it.
F harp, off the shelf. Not tweaked at all.
Last Edited by on Feb 02, 2010 7:27 AM
