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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Overblows?
Overblows?
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Rick Davis
121 posts
Jan 29, 2010
10:48 PM
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NOTE: I am about to express an opinion that may be unpopular and may engender arguments. Let’s keep this civil. Please don’t send me insulting emails. It’s only my opinion.
Here goes:
Overblows Suck
I first discovered overblows on a diatonic harp in 1975 after having played the harp for about 3 years. I was fooling around with different embouchures and breath pressures on blow notes when the note popped up. Wow! I toyed with the overblow notes (I had no name for it at the time) for a couple years and then discarded it. Here’s why:
The overblow notes sounded thin and kind of weak, and they were usually a bit off pitch. I hear the same things today when listening to most overblowers, with the exceptions of Adam Gussow and Jason Ricci.
I don’t hear any overblows in Little Walter’s Juke or in Big Walter’s Boogie. A harp customizer who we all know insists that harps were better back in the day, so one can presume that these players were not limited by their instruments. It seems logical to me that Little Walter MUST have discovered overblows exactly as I did: By accident. He evidently didn’t see much value in overblows because he did not include them in his repertoire. I can’t hear overblows in any of Little Walter’s body of work.
Jacobs and Horton revolutionized blues harp without overblows. I think for them it was about tone, not about including a lot of whiz-bang notes. For jazz harp players I’m sure overblows are fun, but jazz sounds so much better on a chromatic harp I wonder why anybody would torture the music with overblows on a diatonic harp.
Overblows change the tone of blues harp from what Jacobs and Horton envisioned to something else. It ain’t Chicago blues. If that is progress, so be it but it’s not a direction I care to go. Including overblows in blues harp makes it sound DIFFERENT than Little Walter for sure, but I don’t think it sounds better. It gives the tone of the harp a completely different flavor. While I admire the skill and musicianship required to play overblow notes as well as Adam or Jason, I prefer to listen to players such as Kim Wilson who find other ways to create beautiful blues licks.
As I said, this is just my opinion. Have at it.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
Last Edited by on Jan 29, 2010 10:54 PM
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oda
177 posts
Jan 29, 2010
10:53 PM
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I dunna, man. I like overblows.
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Nastyolddog
130 posts
Jan 29, 2010
11:03 PM
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Hi Rick mate i often hear this term overblowing notes i Googled Youtubed and still don't no what to think,,i can't understand can some one show a vid clip with overblows or how to do vid,,not that i think i need them but i need to understand this technic how its done what is it's purpose,,i got no problems with Blow Bending notes just something i need to know so i can reconise it in music being played,,or understand what people are talking about..
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jonsparrow
1971 posts
Jan 29, 2010
11:06 PM
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"Including overblows in blues harp makes it sound DIFFERENT than Little Walter for sure"
despite what allot of people think the goal in playing harp is not to sound like little walter. it think if little walter heard some one like jason play he would crap in his pants. now dont get me wrong im a very very big little walter fan. but times change. thats why this is called MODERN blues harmonica.
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hvyj
121 posts
Jan 29, 2010
11:15 PM
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I don't OB. I don't particularly like how OBs sound. Those who are excellent at it sound very decent, but the overwhelming majority of players who OB don't get a tone/sound I find appealing. It's a stylistic thing--how a player wants to sound. I compensate by playing in multiple positions.
For me, it has nothing to do with playing like Little Walter. As far as i am concerned the world needs another harp player imitating Little Walter's style about as much as the world needs another Elvis impersonator.
I believe in creativity, innovation, and developing one's own unique sound and style--but for the overwhelming most part, the tone produced by OBs just doesn't sound very good to me. But that's a purely subjective thing.
Last Edited by on Jan 29, 2010 11:16 PM
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nacoran
937 posts
Jan 29, 2010
11:28 PM
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Rick- I usually can find all the notes I need without them, but every now and then there's a note I want to play that I don't have because I don't overblow. It could come in real useful for songs with key changes or lots of accidentals. I think most people who use them usually use them as passing notes, although there are all sorts of harps out there set up specially for it.
Nasty- Jason has some videos. I can't get overblows yet myself. It adds some notes you can play on one harmonica so you can play in a couple other keys. Overblow.com has a lot of info on them.
My understanding is it's more useful in Jazz. As for me I'm still focusing on getting my blowbends into my playing. There are some harps designed to make it easier to play them, the Bahnson, the XB-40, the Suzuki Overdrive, some harps with discrete combs.
Jon- You can put the emphasis on Modern or on Blues or on Harmonica depending on your tastes I guess. :) When I describe Jason's playing to someone I usual say he sounds like a lead guitar!
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MichaelAndrewLo
122 posts
Jan 29, 2010
11:39 PM
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That's like saying "I don't like B-flat!" "I don't like the black key notes"
Overblowing is just a technique to access a wider range of notes. They allow you to use all of them. I respect if someone has a favorite color though, so to each his own.
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Kingley
753 posts
Jan 30, 2010
12:05 AM
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I think that overblows do have a place in harmonica music, just as I believe that older styles (pre-war, etc) need to be kept alive.
I personally don't use overblows when playing. I can play them and I do practice them. Just so that should I ever need them they are right there.
Like Rick I also tend to prefer the Kim Wilson type approach to blues. Having said that I can also fully appreciate the music and ability of players like Jason and Adam.
For me the only time I hear overblows used in a way that I would care to, or could imagine using them is when I hear Dennis Gruenling use them. This is because for me it's not about playing fast high octane single note runs. That has simply never been my bag.
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Ryan
90 posts
Jan 30, 2010
12:15 AM
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Hope this doesn't come off the wrong way, but some of the logic your using here is kind of ridiculous.
i.e.- I accidently discovered OB's, therefore a great player like Little Walter MUST have also accidently discovered them too, Little Walter didn't record anyhting with overblows, therefore he must not have liked OB's(and saw no value in them) and he didn't use them because he didn't like them, therefore I see no reason for me to use them
Those are some pretty huge assumptions you're making and it's just not very logical.
If using OB's aren't the direction you wish to go that's fine, you can certainly be a great player without them. Although I don't think it should be one's goal to simply be an inferior Little Walter clone (I say inferior because Little Walter is always going to be the best at playing like Little Walter).
I also don't think it's fair for people to critcise the OB technique because SOME people play them badly and out of tune. Their are players who have shown that if you practice, OB's can be made to sound good and in tune. Don't blame the technique, blame the people playing them badly, blame their technique. It would be like saying bending sounds terrible because there are many players who play them out of tune and with terrible tone, because they haven't yet "mastered" the technique.
I think it's kind of funny when people say that they don't like OB's because they don't sound like normal notes. When played well, overblows sound a lot more like normal notes than some of the bends in the low register(I think you'd have much easier time picking out those low end bends, and a harder time picking out *well played* OB's, if you heard someone playing a series of different notes on several different harps). But people have figured how out how to use those low end bends in a way that sounds good. I see no reason you can't do the same with OB's.
I don't think anyone one needs to learn and use OB's if they're not interested in it, you can play a lot of great stuff with out them. But they do open up a lot of great possibilities. And from what I've read about Little Walter, I think if he did know about OB's and knew what all could be done with them, and knew what they could sound like when played well, I think he'd be pretty damned excited about it (and he'd probably want to learn to use them).
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2010 12:41 AM
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Ryan
91 posts
Jan 30, 2010
12:21 AM
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I forgot to mention that Dennis Gruenling thinks that OB's are great for blues, and doesn't understand why people think OB's aren't good or useful for blues. If I remeber correctly, he was saying the nature of overblows, such as the way they're not always hit pefectly on pitch(although they can be), makes them perfect for blues. He talks about it in an interview with Dave Barrett. I'm going to have to rewatch it to remember exactly what it says.
If you like the stuff Dennis plays, then you can't really say you don't like overblows, because he shows you that they can be used to great affect when played and used well. (I know not everything Dennis plays has OB's, but if you're a fan of his I'm guessing there are a number of his songs that you really like that have OB's, but you may not realise it.)
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2010 12:50 AM
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clarksdale
39 posts
Jan 30, 2010
12:41 AM
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I kinda understand you, a badly played OB can be cringeworthy (just watch some of my YouTube practice videos)
BUT
I'm in love with the 6 OB and 7 OD. I mainly use them as passing notes. "Please don't take, my Sunshi...i mean, Overblow away!"
Take care,
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$Daddy Rich$
"The Blues is Ok!"
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Pimpinella
48 posts
Jan 30, 2010
12:55 AM
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I absolutly agree with Ryan, but i want to stress the LW and overblows thing a little more. Rick, discovered OBs accidentally. Many other players did and i agree, that LW most probably has discovered them, too. However neiter you nor obviously LW understood the potential that they have. It was Howard Levy who did understand and he worked it out, learned how to make OBs sound good, play them with flair, how to add vibrato and timbre. Today there are many players who play very good sounding overblows, not just Jason and Adam and Howard.
There's no necessity to play overblows. There's not even necessity to play bends - Mr. Richter did not have them in mind when he he constructed the tin sandwich.
Well, if you wanna play like LW you of course need bends and if you want to play like Jason you need overblows, too. In 1955 LW was a very innovative blues artist. In 2060 Jason will be considered a classical blues player, ever considered that?
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Kingley
754 posts
Jan 30, 2010
1:23 AM
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"If you like the stuff Dennis plays, then you can't really say you don't like overblows, because he shows you that they can be used to great affect when played and used well. (I know not everything Dennis plays has OB's, but if you're a fan of his I'm guessing there are a number of his songs that you really like that have OB's, but you may not realise it.)"
Ryan, I'm assuming (rightly or wrongly) that this is in response to my post. As Rick never mentioned Dennis. If it is then you need to re-read my post because at no point did I ever say I don't like overblows. You seem to have misinterpreted what I did actually did say.
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Ryan
93 posts
Jan 30, 2010
1:34 AM
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No Kingley it was not in response to your post, I hadn't actually even seen/read your post when writing it. I'd originally intended to put the stuff about Dennis in my first post, which was in reply to Rick, but I fogot it and decided just to make a whole new post instead of adding it to the first(which was already pretty long). I just thought Dennis was a great example of the point I was making because he's fantastic at playing in the traditional Chicago style (as well as other styles) and is a big fan of Little Walter. If I had to guess, I'd bet that Dennis plays the type of blues that Rick loves, but he is also able to seemlessly incorporate OB's into his playing.
So no, my post wasn't in response to you, it was simply a coincidence that you brought up Dennis while I was typing my posts.
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2010 2:03 AM
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Andrew
851 posts
Jan 30, 2010
1:39 AM
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I hardly think OBs are less legitimate than bends.
If they don't sound right, then maybe they aren't being used in the right place at the right time. They take practice to make them sound good, just like the other notes. Obviously if they sound like a cat being strangled, then you shouldn't inflict them upon people.
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Kinda hot in these rhinos!
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Kingley
755 posts
Jan 30, 2010
1:43 AM
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Sorry for the confusion Ryan.
Yes I agree Dennis is a great example. In fact I would have to say of all the overblow players I have ever heard Dennis uses them in the best way to my taste.
Dennis is to me the next logical step in the evolution of blues harmonica from the place that guys like Kim are at. It's classic in a modern way. That is why it suits my palette more than some of the others.
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MrVerylongusername
862 posts
Jan 30, 2010
3:37 AM
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Worth pointing out that overblows were being played and recorded in the 1920s (Blues Birdhead).
I agree that sometimes the intonation on an overblow can sound like a goose honking, but ultimately, I think, that's down to technique.
It is perfectly fine to keep playing blues without overblows, but why limit yourself? They work fine in a blues context too.
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ZackPomerleau
568 posts
Jan 30, 2010
3:51 AM
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You do know that the harmonica is not only Little Walter right? That's being one sided. That's like saying a guitar can only sound like Eric Clapton and everyone else sucks.
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Kingley
756 posts
Jan 30, 2010
4:03 AM
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Before everyone starts bashing Rick, I'd like to point out that he clearly doesn't say everyone who plays overblows sucks. Nor does he say that Little Walter is the only way to play harmonica. He merely uses him as an example that everyone will have heard of to demonstrate his point.
What he does say is that it's his preference to play in that style. He also says he has no interest in playing overblows. That is his perogative.
Just because someone prefers Little Milton to Steve Vai for example doesn't mean Steve sucks it just means he's not to their individual taste.
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2010 4:04 AM
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ZackPomerleau
569 posts
Jan 30, 2010
4:04 AM
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His tone sort of states he doesn't like the way overblows change the sound "it ain't Chicago." That's what I'm getting at.
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Kingley
757 posts
Jan 30, 2010
4:08 AM
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Well that's true though. It ain't "Chicago" in the sense that we all know Chicago blues. Which is of course Little Walter, Billy Branch, James Cotton, Junior Wells, Big Walter, etc.
You could of course argue that it's a modern day Chicago blues. But then you would have to also state something like "it's 21st Century Chicago blues" and not "old school".
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2010 4:12 AM
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arzajac
85 posts
Jan 30, 2010
4:36 AM
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I suppose in the same way that bent notes sound bluesy, overblown notes can sound "jazzy". And in speaking of that jazzy sound, you either love it or hate it.
I hate it. I like Adams use of overblows. I usually like Jason's. But I just can't listen to Carlos del Junco or Howard Levey play jazz.
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phogi
212 posts
Jan 30, 2010
4:59 AM
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My thought:
Overblows do not suck.
1) Not using them makes it so that you have either stick to the low end of the harp OR change your tonality if you want work the upper end of the harp.
Examples: John Popper and Sugar Blue. Ever notice that, despite their cool runs, the tonality is a bit strange? Using OB's you can stick to the minor pentatonic even in the upper register.
2) I find only some of them sound thin and weak. Usually the 5 ob. I speculate that this may be due to my 5 draw reed being gapped to wide.
3) 6 ob is a blue third. How is this a whiz bang note in the blues?
4) I agree with you in one instance - if the player can't adjust the intonation of the overblow. If you can't bend it to the right pitch, it better just be a passing tone! Or else it is torture. But, when the player can bend it up to pitch, sounds great to me, and I'm not someone who could be described as having simple tastes.
5) I'm not a jazz fan (well, the music is ok, I'm not a fan for other reasons). Yet I don't really want to sound like Little Walter. In fact, I don't really like Little Walter's music. Not saying its bad, its just not how I want to sound.
I can empathize with you...but I disagree.
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Diggsblues
93 posts
Jan 30, 2010
5:04 AM
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Some people would like the blues locked in at 1952.
Blues is alive and evolving. Some people attack
overblows because of their own insecurities.
IMHO if those guys of old were twenty something
today they would be overblowing.
At one time in jazz playing a diminished scale on
a dominant chord starting on the b9 was unheard of.
Things evolve. I didn' use 6 ob croas harp but once
i got it I use it all the time.
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eharp
476 posts
Jan 30, 2010
5:31 AM
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i am curious because i hear about overblows and even attempt them once in a while but dont really know how to use them.
i wonder if i can please keep these responses simple.
yes or no:
can you overblow reliable?
can you overblow the majority of overblowable holes?
do you use the ones you can overblow?
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Diggsblues
95 posts
Jan 30, 2010
5:53 AM
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hole six on out of the box GM reliable.
Some harps 456 reliable.
My custom 456 reliable big bodied notes.
Even bending up to the next note if I'm in
practice. I don't consider myself an OB guy.
I use my Chromatic for Jazz stuff.
It's not just to OB it's to combine bent notes
and straight. If you don't good tone and bends
suck it will be hard to combine all the
OB and it will sound crappy cause the other
stuff doesn't work.
6 ob in use for blues.
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GermanHarpist
1058 posts
Jan 30, 2010
5:59 AM
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Diggsblues, " Some people attack overblows because of their own insecurities. "
Please refrain from insults.
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germanharpist on YT. =;-) - Resonance is KEY!
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Diggsblues
96 posts
Jan 30, 2010
6:24 AM
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Not an insult I was that way at first. Talking about
myself.Your reading into stuff. Now I feel insulted
by you telling me to refrain from insults. LOL
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Kingley
758 posts
Jan 30, 2010
6:26 AM
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I think that what people have to realise is that not everyone is interested in playing overblows. It hasn't anything to do with insecurities or lack of playing skills.
It's simply that some people wish to play music using the more traditional methods.
Which is no bad thing. It keeps the history of the music alive.
The exact same can be said of jazz players (or indeed of any musical form). Some like to play more traditional styles and never deviate from the form. Whilst some others like to push the boundaries.
In my humble opinion there is room in this world for both. I treat both with equal respect and do not think that either is the lesser musician.
I will quite happily listen to Jason or Adam ( for example) play overblows and push the boundaries or to Steve Guyger or Rick Estrin work within the classic form. Of course I prefer the music styles of certain players over the others, but that doesn't mean by any stretch of the imagination that it diminishes the musicianship of the others.
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HarmonicaMick
60 posts
Jan 30, 2010
6:40 AM
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Rick makes some interesting points, and he puts them well. If I understood Diggsblues correctly, he/she seemed to make the inference that those who hold Rick's views are harbouring some kind of insecurity. Hmm... I don't quite follow that myself, and won't dignify it further.
Anyway, moving on.
The suggestion that it would be easier for jazzers to use a chromatic and be done with it does seem a logical one, but I'm sure there are reasons why people prefer to do it on the diatonic.
The other thing that often comes up with relation to OBs that I don't agree with - it's mentioned above and in Adam's first video - is the notion that the blues must develop if it is to survive.
Of course, it's impossible to prove one way or the other: the future hasn't happened yet. Nevertheless, there are a significant number of players, on here alone, who evidently prefer the way that blues sounded 60 odd years ago, myself included.
Furthermore, those of you who listen to classical music, see how easy it is to find professional groups of musicians who specialize in playing music from this or that period, some of them only using period instruments.
In the year 2323, someone will still be trying to emulate Big Walter Horton's achingly beautiful version of Careless Love, while someone else will be trying to emulate Mr Ricci.
They are both a part of the canon and will remain so.
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YouTube SlimHarpMick
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2010 6:49 AM
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HarpNinja
110 posts
Jan 30, 2010
7:04 AM
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Like any other bend, you have to practice. Overblows can be played in pitch with the proper harp and technique. There are just as many peeps playing thin and out of tune bends as there are overbends.
What is really of note is that on stock harps...any stock harp, overblows will sound like crap. A well setup harp makes a world of difference.
It is also ridiculous to bring up the Horton/Walter thing. They were innovators...not imitators. There were people probably whinning about how they were forward thinking players too.
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Mike Fugazzi
http://www.myspace.com/niterailband
http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail
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http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
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congaron
487 posts
Jan 30, 2010
7:07 AM
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I spend more time on the 6 hole OB than any other because i can use it often. I have learned to bend it upwards at the end like i saw Jason and Adam doing in the next to the last, last, last, last video together. I can also hold it indefinitely with vibrato at any speed I want and it works great in slow blues intros and outros with my band. The 5 is getting there and the 4 is way off still. I see uses for all three and practice them all daily, but the 6 is extremely useful to me and that may be why It has come together to sound like any other note. I play OTB harps with slight gapping as needed. I also play lots of first position contemporary Christian music and find myself overblowing hole 6 on melody and harmony lines.
I'm glad they are there and keep working on 4 and 5 to get them more like 6...a normal bendable note with vibrato I can use in music. As trumpet player, I immediatley missed the chromatic capability when I began to learn diatonic harp. I still do, but not as much since I learned of overblows. I am planning to get a hohner 10- hole educator chromatic soon. Playing music requires chromatic capability eventually, IMO.
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2010 7:09 AM
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saregapadanisa
92 posts
Jan 30, 2010
7:19 AM
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It's funny how OBs have taken the center stage of harp playing abilty.
Adding new notes to your instrument is just fine. But most of the time, the problem with OB is : you can tell.
Actually, even non-harp players can tell when listening to OBers. The sound quality is different, so is the attack. Phrasing is everything in music, it's the energy that leads somewhere, that tells a story, that express your musical thoughts. Most of the time, OBs only give inconsistency.
IMO in that perpective, very few players master OBs. As it has been said before, Adam, Jason and Howard are the men, and I would add Sebastien Charlier. They are true Masters. But would I put myself in jeopardy by saying that, even Howard sometimes miss the point, and that OBs weaken the flow and the focus of some of his musical phrases ?
Phogi mentioned J Popper and Sugar Blue, non-OBers, and sounding strange in the upper octave. I'm no a fan of Popper, but have been listening to Sugar Blue rather heavily recently, and still have to hear someone as him, able to unfold musical phrase with the same consistency, focus, energy and meaning. Yes, he hits those "other notes". But isn't that a valid direction for modern blues ? I may go a little too far, but if Obs are just a mean to play those good ol' blues scale notes, just a little higher, who is the traditionalist ?
I feel, maybe wrongly, that discussions about OB often turns in a show of technical ability (hey, show me what you're up to). It shoudn't. Adding new possibilities to your instrument is musically relevant. And why on earth nobody here ever speak about valved harp ? Take a guy like PT Gazell, he's got those plus notes by playing valved. Of course, it's not as heroic, but that guy knows better about phrasing and consistant playing than a truckload of OBers.
Playing technically is great ; listening musically is better still.
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Kingley
759 posts
Jan 30, 2010
7:24 AM
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I totally agree that a harp needs re-gapping to play overblows efficiently. As Mike rightly calls it "a well set up harp".
If you follow the great advice in the YouTube videos by Joe Spiers on gapping then as long as your technique is good you'll hit all the overblows/overdraws. You do not need to spend big amounts of money on custom harps to play them.
What custom harps do is to make things easier (as long as your techniques is good) and open up the possibilities of what you can achieve.
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Bb
148 posts
Jan 30, 2010
7:24 AM
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I think if your overblows are SHOWING, it can sound bad. Not saying they aren't useful, and if they are played with strength and proper intonation like you get with Chris, Jason or Adam VERY COOL. But most of the other cats tryin' 'em on out on the YouTubes sound sick (not in a good way, sick) to my ear.
-Bob
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HarpNinja
111 posts
Jan 30, 2010
7:28 AM
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Just as many harp players suck at regular bends...which totally stick out. In fact, most of the "blue" notes are vague and just as "out" sounding as an overbend. Overbends just aren't a part of the typicaly harmonica cultural pattern.
Pick up a C harp and hit the Bb on pitch....not a partial "blues" bend...hit the Bb.
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Mike Fugazzi
http://www.myspace.com/niterailband
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Rick Davis
122 posts
Jan 30, 2010
7:33 AM
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The sub-head "Overblows Suck" was meant to be funny... kind of a oxymoron thing. Get it?
I thought of another OBer I really like: Christelle Berthon. She has marvelous intonation, but she is not really a blues player.
I actually use an overblow in one song I occasionally do with my acoustic duo: Mellow Yellow. But that is not a blues song and I'm playing first position harp. To me, overblows sound glaringly out of place in many blues riffs, but they sound fine in other musical forms.
I have great admiration for players like Adam, Jason, and Christelle who can overblow so well. But I could spend a lifetime perfecting my weak-ass emulations of Little Walter and Kim Wilson. I'll leave the OB's to the experts.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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Rick Davis
123 posts
Jan 30, 2010
7:34 AM
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Jon, there are LOTS of harp players who want to sound like Little Walter, including Jason Ricci. Read his interview on overblow.com.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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Bb
149 posts
Jan 30, 2010
7:38 AM
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Sure, Mike. THOSE players need to work to nail their bends and be in CONTROL before they go around saying they "blow harp". Because their just honkin'on bobo until they do.
-Bob
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HarmonicaMick
61 posts
Jan 30, 2010
7:44 AM
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HarpNinja,
"It is also ridiculous to bring up the Horton/Walter thing."
Please don't be insulting. It's not necessary.
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YouTube SlimHarpMick
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Rick Davis
126 posts
Jan 30, 2010
7:49 AM
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Mike, Adam Gussow overblows on stock harps and I don't think he sounds like crap.
Also, I am not "whining" about overblows. I'm just offering my opinion that they often sound out of place in traditional blues riffs.
This devotion to overblows is like the tail wagging the dog. My dedication is to the music, not the instrument.
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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congaron
489 posts
Jan 30, 2010
7:51 AM
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In blues, I don't use them as much as in contemporary, that's for sure. Slow blues or solos where i need an extended 6ob is where i find i use it in blues..rarely as a quick passing note.
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hvyj
122 posts
Jan 30, 2010
7:52 AM
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Besides Jason, Adam and Christelle, Buddha certainly makes compelling musical statements w/OBs. It CAN be done. But, to my ear, most players who OB don't get that sort of great tone and sound.
Playing an OB just because a player CAN doesn't necessarily add to the aesthetic of the performance. IMHO, it shouldn't be a "look ma, no hands" sort of thing, but, to my ear often (but certainly not always) comes off that way.
I'm not suggesting that players shouldn't OB--i just don't hear it done sufficiently well enough to actually enhance the performance all that often. And i don't come close to doing it well enough to like the sound I make when i try. So i use multiple positions to play what i think sounds good to me.
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phogi
213 posts
Jan 30, 2010
8:12 AM
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hmmm...
I've certainly said my piece, but I feel bothered...
I guess it comes down to traditional vs. innovation. As they say, 'the best arguments are the oldest ones.'
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kudzurunner
1035 posts
Jan 30, 2010
8:15 AM
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I think I've made my own feelings about this issue clear, so I won't belabor them. (I think it'll be a miracle if this thread manages to remain civil, but let's see if we can do that.)
As I do with most technical issues, I think it's a non-issue. I'm a non-dualist. I don't believe it's productive to invest a whole lot of energy drawing lines in the sand: i.e., tongue blocking OR lip pursing. Why not use both techniques? I'm an impurist in that respect.
When overblows are used as passing tones--which is how I use them--rather than sustained tones, they don't sound any different from non-overblown notes. Or at least they don't have to. In the first three positions, moreover, they give you incredibly useful notes for blues playing, notes that let you hit key blue notes and chord tones for the I, IV and V chords:
FIRST POSITION: b3rd, b5th, b7th, all in middle octave
CROSS HARP: b6th, maj7th, b3rd, all in middle octave
3RD POSITION: maj3rd, b6th
I can't for the life of me see why someone who plays blues wouldn't want to add those notes to their repertoire. Certainly, 98% of contemporary blues players who DON'T add those notes to their playing sound old-fashioned to me, like they're leaving something useful and essential out of the conversation. (Little Walter never sounds old-fashioned to me, but that's because he had a complex rhythm concept that most of his followers don't quite nail, and because he had a protean melodic creativity that few players of any era can match.)
I find it much harder to sustain overblows in a way that makes them tonally equivalent to regular blow and draw (and bent draw) notes. I'm sure that I'd have much less trouble on custom harps. And having heard T. J. Klay sustain overblows on a Joe Spiers High G harp, I can tell you that some players out there have indeed overcome the technical challenge. Certainly Howard, Carlos, and Buddha have, as has Jason. But the fact that sustained overblows may sound slightly different than other notes doesn't strike me as a problem. Why not take advantage of that fact--as players take advantage of the fact that the 3 draw bends sound different, more aggressive, when you really hammer on them?
When Eddie Van Halen revolutionized rock guitar with the hammer-on, pull-off technique, I suspect there were old-school rock guitarists who dismissed it by saying "Eric Clapton didn't do that" and "I can hear that he's not actually PICKING those notes." 25 years down the line, it's not an issue. It's part of standard-issue rock technique, available to any who want to utilize it. This doesn't mean that every rock guitarist HAS to utilize it.
Same with amplification, Rick. I'm sure that there were some old-timers in Little Walter's day who sniffed, "I don't need no damn amp." I suspect that Sonny Boy Williamson (Rice Miller) had something of that attitude--although I'd be happy to be proved wrong. Certainly we have NO recordings of SBW blowing harp that has been amped up to anything like the degree that LW cranked his up--with that level of sustain. LW was cutting-edge. You, more than most people, know this. Your blog investigates and celebrates, in retrospect, the amp technology of that cutting-edge period in harmonica history. So I'm a little surprised that you're so heavily invested in dismissing one of the more widespread cutting-edge movements in our own day. That's a paradox. I'm not sure you realize quite how paradoxical it is. But I certainly don't think you're alone in inhabiting this paradox. I've said for a long time that those who celebrate Little Walter these days tend to celebrate his musical output--as "classic stuff" from a bygone age that needs to be kept alive--rather than celebrating his innovative spirit.
I celebrate, and try to honor, his innovative spirit. This means that I assume a guy like Little Walter, alive today, would be playing something that goes "beyond" LW's collected recordings. Almost sixty years have gone by since "Juke." Lotsa new sounds, including Mowtown, funk, rap, AND overblows that a young creative spirit like his would be striving to respond to, and incorporate into his playing.
I'm happy to be cutting-edge, or semi-cutting-edge. (Non custom-harp, few sustained overblows, almost no overdraws.) I think that there's a new generation of younger players coming along for whom overblows are simply part of the scenery; no big deal, no huge challenge. (R.J. Harman, Jay Gaunt, Christelle, Zack and Brandon, etc.) I'm happy about that.
Last Edited by on Jan 30, 2010 8:28 AM
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HarpNinja
112 posts
Jan 30, 2010
8:31 AM
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On our MySpace page, I end the solo to Leave Your Light On with a sustained OB. We played last night, before following this post, and the more I think about it, I sustain obs all the time. When I get the final mix, I'll post an instrumental we wrote for our CD. There are obs all over the head and I think I sustain a 4ob during my solo.
Point being...I don't think those notes stand out anymore than any other type of bend. If I have time this week, I'll video tape some obs, bending them, sustaining them, adding vibrato...
I use overdraws more as passing notes.
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Mike Fugazzi
http://www.myspace.com/niterailband
http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail
http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail
http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
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ZackPomerleau
570 posts
Jan 30, 2010
8:36 AM
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Adam, you're right, for me, overblows are just a part of the instrument. I don't really think of them as overblows unless I am talking about them. If I need the flat third or something, I do it, I don't OVERBLOW. People talk about it like it's some magical thing, I don't get that. I can understand twenty years ago people thinking it was magical, but now we're getting where it's sort of a mainstay. The harmonica can't be brought much further in terms of technique, as all the notes have been found, but now that the capability has been found others can now do what they need to do. In twenty years overblows will hopefully just be a technique in the book that is taught to get those notes, not some illusive thing that only wizards and witches can do.
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Pimpinella
49 posts
Jan 30, 2010
10:39 AM
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One more thing to consider. I'm reading another forum where we regulary have total beginners. Most of them start to play overblows within the first year of playing. These players will have significant experience with this technique after three or four years and their capability of producong good sounding overblows is often not much behind their ability to play nice bends!
When they do their first steps into improvising, band playing and when they start to develop their own "style" overbends are readily available for them and for many of them it will be an integral part of it.
Overbending is not a new technique anymore, but common even now and soon it will be bread and butter stuff.
Then again, whats innovative today will be traditional just a few decades later. On the other forum we recently had a thread where a member considered that Walter/Junior/Cotton/etc. stuff as kind of original blues, pure and genuine. Everything later is for him contaminated with external ideas: Butter,Mayall, all that overblowing...
IMHO he is fatally wrong! Little Walter was five decades away from whatever was "original" blues. His playing had lots of influences from other styles and other instruments. Still he played genuine blues - genuine from his heart. Contemporary blues players play genuine, too, regardless if they're modernists or traditionalists. If they don't, then they don't play blues at all.
This is far away from what Rick tried to come up with when he started this thread: that Overbends suck.
Wether they do or not, there's no way back! They are already part of the harmonica blues tradition.
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barbequebob
412 posts
Jan 30, 2010
10:44 AM
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Now I come from the tradtional blues background, but I won't let it hamper me from enjoying things outside the box. I may know how to play them but from personal choice, I rarely use them, and if you know how to play them, like any technique, it is NOT and end all be all for anything and just throwing things in for the sake of it is just playing to express technique and not the mood of the piece.
I've heard stuff by Red Archibald using overblows in a more traditional setting but in away that it doesn't overpower anything and keeps the groove and feel.
Poorly articulated and intonated bent notes annoy me just as much as poorly articulated and intonated overblows do.
There are times even bent notes sound like crap in certain situations and where an unbent note makes more sense with what's going on in terms of the mood of the piece.
Now to say if LW or any other great would use them if they knew how to play them is nothing more than conjective because he is not alive to testify to that one way or the other. Did he know how? Since he's been dead since 1968, we'll never really know the truth about that.
Too many players don't spend enough time learning groove and too much on the soloing techniques and the subtle stuff is always more difficult to learn than bending or overblowing.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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eharp
480 posts
Jan 30, 2010
10:52 AM
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"They are already part of the harmonica blues tradition."
you got that right, pimpinella.
harp playing, and music in general, is always evolving. there will always be some who think the old ways were better and some want to push the envelope. nothing wrong with either school, imo.
it may be that i dont care much for overblows is because i cant do it.
;-p
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