|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
blues performers showing flesh
blues performers showing flesh
Page:
1
2
kudzurunner
5037 posts
Oct 11, 2014
8:27 PM
|
Showing flesh, as a blues peformer, makes you part of a long and noble tradition, and this is NOT an OT thread. Meat shaking on my bones. Mooncat and I played a lot of gigs in tank tops. B. B. King has famous photos, in Memphis way back, playing in shorts.
Still, I was struck by how much thigh these particular blues perfomers were showing here:
I don't want anybody, including our nacoran, to misinterpret my intentions as sexist. I'm intrigued by how the body, ultimately, is what the blues are about--or at least blues stagecraft, which always says, "Look at me! Look at how I sweat! Look at my sexual power! Look at the hard life I've lived!" Scars, needle tracks, bruises. Little Walter's scarred face! Bashed in teeth.
Please post photos and videos that speak to this issue.
[Note: The MBH forum provides equal employment opportunities (EEO) to all employees and applicants for employment without regard to race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, disability or genetics. In addition to federal law requirements, the MBH forum complies with applicable state and local laws governing nondiscrimination in employment in every location in which the company has facilities. This policy applies to all terms and conditions of employment, including recruiting, hiring, placement, promotion, termination, layoff, recall, transfer, leaves of absence, compensation and training.
The MBH forum expressly prohibits any form of workplace harassment based on race, color, religion, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, national origin, age, genetic information, disability, or veteran status. Improper interference with the ability of the MBH forum’s employees to perform their job duties may result in discipline up to and including discharge.
|
kudzurunner
5038 posts
Oct 11, 2014
8:28 PM
|
Please behave, boys.
|
jnorem
585 posts
Oct 11, 2014
9:02 PM
|
"Showing flesh as a blues performer makes you part of a long and noble tradition."
Please demonstrate that claim, if you wouldn't mind.
----------
Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on Oct 11, 2014 9:23 PM
|
Thievin' Heathen
413 posts
Oct 11, 2014
10:04 PM
|
I'm pretty sure Samantha Fish plays Knuckleheads in KC rather regularly. They also have a lot of harmonica action there. I keep trying to drop in there. Now I can think of 4 more reasons.
Last Edited by Thievin' Heathen on Oct 13, 2014 4:21 PM
|
STME58
1134 posts
Oct 11, 2014
11:06 PM
|
I don't have the extensive experience with the blues that most have here, but it seems to me that the phenomenon the Adam brings up here is much more associated with Rock and Roll than with Blues.
As a very unscientific experiment, I typed Blues, jazz and rock and roll into the Google image search engine with and without the word performer or artist. The only searches that had images of the type being discussed here were the ones on Rock and Roll. there were lots of men without shirts and women in skimpy costumes when I searched R&R but virtually none in the Blues search.
|
Barley Nectar
553 posts
Oct 11, 2014
11:39 PM
|
What are the amps behind the ladies? Diagonal face, one combo or cab maybe, two heads, one not lit? Nice show...
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Oct 11, 2014 11:40 PM
|
jnorem
587 posts
Oct 12, 2014
12:00 AM
|
To be fair, I did come across a photograph on the internet of Howlin Wolf onstage wearing nothing but a Speedo.
A long and noble blues tradition.
----------
Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on Oct 12, 2014 12:05 AM
|
LSC
689 posts
Oct 12, 2014
8:39 AM
|
When was sex not a factor in blues? With female performers of all stripes following the general trend of showing off some leg it should not be surprising that blues performers are following suit. As an avid fan of the female form I for one have no objection.
----------
LSC
|
Goldbrick
722 posts
Oct 12, 2014
8:46 AM
|
She got it all going on
|
walterharp
1531 posts
Oct 12, 2014
12:34 PM
|
how about the allman brothers?
album art
on the female side of things, Samantha Fish catches attention with her looks, but if you get a chance to see a show, she totally tears it up... the groove is first with her bands.
Sort of related, while Bonnie Raiit did not wear hugely reveling outfits when she was younger, she had some pretty ruanchy moves that made full use of the phallic nature of the shape of a guitar, the sort of stuff that male blues performers are also known to do as well...
Last Edited by walterharp on Oct 12, 2014 12:38 PM
|
Leatherlips
292 posts
Oct 13, 2014
12:55 AM
|
Well I'm not sure what blues women are supposed to wear, but I reckon if you got the goods, why not show them.
Maybe full length dresses don't work any more and besides, if something adds to your performance, then use it.
Not sure as I could handle men in shorts playing blues though. Mind you, a band I was once in had a drummer who would wear nothing other than his bib and brace overalls.
|
eharp
2238 posts
Oct 13, 2014
4:53 AM
|
If the current Blues is mainly over 50 white guys, I seriously doubt there is that much skin. SHOWING! (You don't see much skin on Gov't Mule, do you?)
The pics of the masters in tank tops was probably the rare exception and not the norm. And was probably caused by heat rather than promotion.
But in this society, sex sells. And this really has less to do with the music and more to do with the money.
|
smwoerner
277 posts
Oct 13, 2014
9:48 AM
|
You're getting old, Adam, like most of us. I expect what they're wearing has little to do with Blues and a lot more to do with their age and currently acceptable social standards.
While you may have noticed the amount of thigh, the folks that just clicked on this video after watching Anaconda or Booty by Nicki Minji and J Lo will barely notice the outfits.
These girls are in their late teens and early twenties and are wearing what they would be wearing on a normal evening out.
----------
Purveyor of Optimized New and Refurbished Harmonicas.
scott@scottwoerner.com
Last Edited by smwoerner on Oct 13, 2014 10:58 AM
|
6SN7
482 posts
Oct 13, 2014
9:59 AM
|
I let my daughters check this thread and the clips out to get their take. They were more impressed with the women's talent than the outfits and didn't think they were all that revealing. They thought the poster was a bit of a "old fart." LOL! They had a further suggestion to all men over the age of 25: "Don't wear tank tops or cargo shorts, you look ridiculous."
So much from the Dept of Daughters!
|
Honkin On Bobo
1280 posts
Oct 13, 2014
10:57 AM
|
Blues drenched in sex. What's not to like?
I know, it's only rhythm and blues but I like it!!!!!!!!!!
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Oct 13, 2014 11:08 AM
|
thorvaldsen76
184 posts
Oct 13, 2014
11:31 AM
|
What is it with this world and it's so called "talented" guitarwomen? I think the bar is set lower for women than for men and it's a damn shame. If the video with Fish/Johnson had been two guys,would they have been called talented? I'm not so sure. I love the blues, and I don't go crazy if I see a couple of long legs, because the music is pretty average. Now, check this video out! THIS is sexy, and without showing off legs to take the focus away from crappy blues-rock:
|
Goldbrick
724 posts
Oct 13, 2014
11:58 AM
|
Classy blues lady skin
|
Rhartt1234
149 posts
Oct 13, 2014
12:00 PM
|
Flesh or not, male or female, I think the first video demonstrates everything that is wrong with contemporary Blues. Lame Hendrix via SRV licks over a funk groove with lyrics from a beat to death standard. That's about as deep as a kiddie pool. Yes, I know they are doing the Cray/Copeland/Collins version, but do these chicks even own a Hop Wilson record.
|
nacoran
8052 posts
Oct 13, 2014
12:19 PM
|
Lol! If I could play like I play now (intermediate) but looked like I did when I was 16, I'd be more famous than all of you. :)
It's interesting, I think smweorner has got it right- combined 6SN7's daughter's opinions... age appropriate... I imagine some of us treat our bodies better than others over the years (my body, to use a car analogy, looks like I've rolled the odometer a couple times). Venue appropriate, genre appropriate...
I saw Tori Amos in concert twice. The first time she wore jeans. She had a folk singer opening for her and it seemed like rock and roll. The second time around she had all sorts of crazy costumes. I still enjoyed the music, but it was a very different audience. I felt, as a guy, like I wasn't really part of her target audience the second time around.
Isaac, the other day mentioned gender nouns- there are whole fields of study that talk about signifiers and things that represent and shade our perceptions, often unconsciously. It's fascinating stuff (well, to me at least). We used to joke in school that once you took a literary theory class you could never read a book the same way again because your brain would get rewired to look for all the hidden agendas of the author, the different characters, even the other people talking about the book.
There are all sorts of things that influence how you are perceived on the stage. If I'm going to be playing I shave my head so I don't look so scruffy, find a shirt with no stains on it- I've been considering my footwear of late. If I could find a classy looking pair of black sneakers I might stick with sneakers, but I've got finicky feet. If the shoes don't breath or if they don't have good support I'm finished before I even get started. I guess I aim for the 'college/alternative' look. I do tend to wear my shirts not fully buttoned up. :)
Thorvaldensen, since you linked Sugar Pie,
I hope I can still rock when I'm that age. :)
----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
First Post- May 8, 2009
|
jnorem
589 posts
Oct 13, 2014
12:58 PM
|
Seriously, though, showing flesh is not a long and noble blues tradition. If it is, why haven't I ever heard of this tradition? I've never seen any musician/singer "show flesh" at a blues performance, nor have I ever heard of it.
----------
Call me J
|
KingoBad
1549 posts
Oct 13, 2014
2:32 PM
|
Jnorem, I'm surprised any of us exist because you haven't heard of us...
----------
Danny
Last Edited by KingoBad on Oct 13, 2014 2:32 PM
|
6SN7
483 posts
Oct 13, 2014
2:47 PM
|
To be honest, I have been a big fan of blues my whole life and I honestly never ever recall a blues show where the performer was "showing flesh".
As for AG and JR being part of the "tradition" with their muscle shirts or BB king in shorts (he was wearing a jacket and tie also!) those examples are at best, a stretch, IMHO.
Of course, "showing flesh" has been in other genres of music.
|
jnorem
590 posts
Oct 13, 2014
3:06 PM
|
@KingoBad: Well, that makes no sense, does it? I haven't been staying you all like I have been studying blues music.
So I guess you get to be the one to tell me all about the history of the long and noble blues tradition of showing flesh.
----------
Call me J
|
walterharp
1532 posts
Oct 13, 2014
4:53 PM
|
not blues, but it has harmonica and flesh..
|
kudzurunner
5041 posts
Oct 13, 2014
4:56 PM
|
J, you amuse me.
Did you actually read what I wrote?
"I'm intrigued by how the body, ultimately, is what the blues are about--or at least blues stagecraft, which always says, "Look at me! Look at how I sweat! Look at my sexual power! Look at the hard life I've lived!" Scars, needle tracks, bruises. Little Walter's scarred face! Bashed in teeth."
This thread was an invitation to a discussion that deserves to be had. You're clearly more interested in picking a fight than in having that discussion. And that's cool. I'm just more interested in having the discussion than in having the fight.
The discussion: I'm struck by how the iconography of blues photography is fascinated by scars. I wrote in my book, SEEMS LIKE MURDER HERE, about how Muddy Waters's audience had spirited discussions about his scars--how he'd gotten them, which lady (or guy) had given them to him. He'd raise his shirt and show them.
There's a famous anecdote, which I believe I once posted here, about how a cohort of famous Muddy-band players all took their d**ks out after an argument and began comparing.
I've seen a fair number of skinny white blues players over the years, from Johnny Winter on down, who wore tight tank tops and showed off scars, needle tracks, and the like.
The one time Jimmy "the preacher" Robins hired me for a Harlem gig, I was surprised by how he stripped down to his boxer shorts and long black socks in the dressing room--without the slightest bit of self-consciousness about people milling around. He was a well-dressed, spiffy guys--an organist--but backstage he was all business, and that meant: show flesh. Strip down, change outfits, get 'em done.
Annika Chambers is an extremely voluptuous contemporary Houston-based blues singer and when we crossed paths at a blues festival in Houston, I couldn't help noticing how she dressed to as to accentuate what didn't really need much accentuating.
Annika Chambers showing off curves
This is very much a part of the classic blueswoman tradition. The term "respectability" was big in African American middle-class circles between 1895 and 1925, but the blueswomen were more interested in projecting powerful, bodacious identities, and showcasing their bodies was part of that. This wasn't true for all blues singers; it was just a fairly common practice. The 1920s in particular were an era when young people of all colors threw off Victorian repression. If you were a flapper, black or white, that meant getting rid of the bustle, the bra, and the long sleeves. We've all seen pictures of the classic flapper. She shows almost as much arm as the current First Lady. (Google image-search "flapper") Blueswomen showed leg. That's still a part of the tradition. See Bill Steber's famous shots from the North Mississippi jukes:
Juke Joint woman showing flesh
The measure of Little Walter's life is the difference between the first publicity photo, in which his face is unmarked, gleaming, like a matinee idol's, and the shot used on "Hate To See You Go," where his scarred forehead and pitted skin just look ravaged.
A certain kind of soul-man (or soul-bluesman) look is all about the shirt open to the navel and, in many cases, the gold chain or other dangling jewelry. In a few cases, publicity photos feature actual beefcake:
Johnny Taylor showing flesh
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Oct 13, 2014 5:11 PM
|
jnorem
591 posts
Oct 13, 2014
5:33 PM
|
Yes, I read what you wrote. You wrote: "Showing flesh, as a blues peformer, makes you part of a long and noble tradition."
All I'm asking, Adam, is how you arrived at that notion. I've scoured every source for blues information from the age of 16, and I've never seen any reference to this so-called tradition. I've never seen any performance by any blues artist where any flesh was shown, never.
It's your website, and you're free to make up anything you want. This, I'm quite sure, is something you made up, and I have to wonder why. Why make up anything?
That video of the leg girls. What I learned from that is that you consider that to be blues.
I think you're full of shit, Adam Gussow. That's really what I think. I think you're a very strange and maybe somewhat disturbed not-all-that-intelligent full-of-shit kind of person.
Now I know I'll be banned for that. Whee!
I very much appreciate the real guys here who've helped in all different ways, and I'll remain in touch with each of you, anyway I'll try.
Barbecue Bob, stop talking about Pentatonic scales, which you know nothing about. For that matter, this forum has dispersed an amazing amount of just-not-true crap in the time I've been here.
You don't care. You just like having your ass kissed by the members here, and I'll close by saying that the amount of ass-kissing that takes place on this forum is very weird and a little disturbing.
----------
Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on Oct 13, 2014 5:38 PM
|
Harpaholic
556 posts
Oct 13, 2014
5:43 PM
|
Janiva Magness, dressed like this with a low cut blouse when I saw her with Tommy Castro a few years back. She looked like a working girl on a cop show.
No objections on the first video. It's great to see younger people singing and playing the blues with passion and helping to keep the blues alive.
The fact that their attractive and not wearing much is a bonus.
Barley, Catagory 5 amps.
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Oct 13, 2014 5:44 PM
|
kudzurunner
5042 posts
Oct 13, 2014
5:56 PM
|
@J: That's cool. Happy trails.
|
Barley Nectar
554 posts
Oct 13, 2014
7:24 PM
|
Cool, Thanks Harpaholic.
|
eharp
2239 posts
Oct 13, 2014
7:36 PM
|
It seems there are 2 dress codes which we consider "traditional".
The first being like SBWII with the suit, tie and bowler- a sharp dressed man.
The second tradition is the one brought up by this thread.
It is a little confusing.
It has been brought up here many times that one needs to dress up for a gig; a show of respect to the audience. And that dress up is going to change as fashion and the audience changes.
Perhaps the women tend to dress more provocatively due to it being a man's world?
As for showing off scars. Did they REALLY dress to show the scars or was that just a byproduct of dressing comfortably?
And I don't understand how the preacher changing his clothes backstage has anything to do with dress for stage. It seems he has adjusted to conditions of touring where there isn't a star's dressing room. He probably had to change anywhere he could for so long that it became the norm to drop trou wherever he could find a place to.
|
kudzurunner
5043 posts
Oct 13, 2014
9:03 PM
|
It's funny you should bring Sonny Boy's Saville Row suit up in this thread. It most certainly was NOT traditional! He caused a lot of consternation among blues fans and musicians when he wore that suit--something more typically worn by well-bred members of the House of Lords. Saville Row pinstripes were not a typical bluesman's uniform. People back in Helena thought he was putting on airs. Or at least that's what I've read.
There are actually a range of different ways that blues people, men and women, dress. Bonnie Raitt and Rory Block tended for years to dress in bluejeans and blouses or tucked-in men's shirts. James Cotton violated protocol by dressing in sweaty t-shirts and bluejeans for a while, because he was playing colleges and wanted to look like the white kids who were attending his shows.
Kim Wilson was a notably flashy, weird dresser at times in his past. The turban thing, which he shared with Sonny Rhodes. He also showed a lot of skin--arms, shoulders--as Mark Wenner still does, I believe.
I think you're confused, Eric, because I quickly broadened the subject of this thread in the paragraph below the video. Intellectual honesty sometimes means expanding the frame, when that's needed. I think some of the flesh-showing is quite deliberate: Mark Wenner wearing a wife-beater black singlet and bandanna to show off his muscles because he's playing for bikers and it's a working-class thing, showing muscles. Fish shows her thighs for the same reason Popovic does: a combination of sex appeal and a dare-you-to-say-I'm-just-a-cute-chick-who-can't-really-play guitar. (Popovic can certainly play guitar!)
But some of the flesh-showing I've described serves other cultural purposes. With Preacher, it was just him showing he was a showbiz pro, entirely comfortable in his own skin. He would never, ever go onstage like that. But he hadn't the slightest fear that his backstage semi-nekkid persona would be exposed to the front of the house. He exemplified professionalism, in other words, by how relaxed he was about his own body backstage.
With Little Walter, the passage from unscarred pretty-boy to scarred survivor probably has more to do with the shifting aesthetics of white blues recording merchandizers, not Walter's own choices about how to present himself to the public. When he was a young star, and touring, you want the pretty face. When he was dead, and it's the mid-70s and blues has become more of a white thing for white audiences, his scarred visage says "I'm the real blues, from back in the day."
I encourage forum members to interpret my remarks freely, rather than narrowly. I still think that meat shaking on my flesh bones this thread has unearthed an important theme in the blues. It ain't the meat, it's the motion. Bring me beefsteak when I'm hungry, and whisky when I'm dry. Pigmeat, pigmeat's all I crave......
For the record, I posted the video not just because I thought I could use it to foreground an important theme in the blues, but because I enjoy the music the two women are making. They're still developing, but I've heard much worse blues singing in my day. I'll always be intrigued by the ways in which contemporary blues performers seek to revitalize and reinvent an enduring tradition. The chicks-in-tight-dresses thing has a long history, in other words, but when you put Samantha Fish and Ana Popovic side by side, you also realize that there's a contemporary trend.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Oct 13, 2014 9:14 PM
|
Goldbrick
725 posts
Oct 13, 2014
9:39 PM
|
Harp player showing flesh
|
kudzurunner
5044 posts
Oct 14, 2014
7:22 AM
|
Well there you goddamn go. Christelle is a perfect example of the trend. Well, a good example--since she's not by any means a pure blues player. But she's the most-watched harmonica player on YouTube, as she pointed out in a recent video. Fourteen million hits on her videos, something like that. In her case, showing flesh says: What you see is what you get. Here I am. Just me, the harmonica, my bedroom, the camera, and you.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Oct 14, 2014 7:22 AM
|
eharp
2241 posts
Oct 14, 2014
8:01 AM
|
I use SBWII not as the standard but as an example of dressing well; suit and tie.
A quick google of images. Definitely not to be the deciding factor I this discussion, but..
Most are dressed up as opposed to dressed down.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=photos+of+blues+musicians&qpvt=photos+of+blues+musicians&FORM=IGRE
"Look at me! Look at how I sweat! Look at my sexual power! Look at the hard life I've lived!"
You see Christelle as an example??
Your last post has EALLY confused me.
Is it a trend, like bell bottoms that will go away, or is it a tradition, like thought provoking threads that eventually go off course?
|
6SN7
485 posts
Oct 14, 2014
8:05 AM
|
Upon reflection, you are correct, you have expanded the frame of your thesis to point I find it difficlt to challenge your assertions particularly when you back it up with anecdotal evidence that is all over the map. I could be here all night discussing this but let's face it, that's probably your point as you are a teacher at heart and you like to challenge your students to think beyond their own first impressions.
I do find it amusing some of the responses as to why the young white women guitarists in the above are wearing short skirts. One poster said perhaps it is because they are playing in a "man's world." My take is these woman are completely empowered and comfortable in their own skin and can wear anything they choose to while performing. They come off as very sexy to some, but they come off more as completely confident to me. Frankly, I think they might just threaten a few men and women in the audience by their audacity.
As for Christelle, I believe she embodies and transcends your thesis. She is an original and also is great at self promotion. This isn't a negative comment, it is just what I see her doing. I wouldn't dare piegonhole her as a blues or jazz player, she is an artist with amazing skills and presence.
Last Edited by 6SN7 on Oct 14, 2014 9:12 AM
|
smwoerner
278 posts
Oct 14, 2014
8:22 AM
|
"I've seen a fair number of skinny white blues players over the years, from Johnny Winter on down, who wore tight tank tops and showed off scars, needle tracks, and the like.
The one time Jimmy "the preacher" Robins hired me for a Harlem gig, I was surprised by how he stripped down to his boxer shorts and long black socks in the dressing room--without the slightest bit of self-consciousness about people milling around. He was a well-dressed, spiffy guys--an organist--but backstage he was all business, and that meant: show flesh. Strip down, change outfits, get 'em done."
Really, wow infer much, Adam. According to you then there is a long tradition of farmers, back packers, rock climbers, sports players, and pretty much any group that is used to using communal areas as a common place to change clothes as folks that have a history of showing skin.
Hell, Adam, you're a runner. How often do you see folks changing clothes in a parking lot after a race? I've changed out of my shorts or cycling bibs in parking lots with a towel wrapped around my ass more times than I can count.
And, just because someone is not covering something up does not mean they are showing it off. Hell, probably one of the rudest things you could do to my godfather was ask about his scars when he stripped his shirt off while he was working.
I understand what you’re getting at but, commonalty is not always causation. Again, I expect a lot of what you’re applying as a tradition of showing skin is more a result of the upbringing and circumstances of the folks involved. Or, do you also think the blues has a long tradition of pissing behind trees or in alleys?
I’ll admit that often times Adam I can’t tell if you’re serious or if you’re just using a thread as a social experiment or research for a paper.
----------
Purveyor of Optimized New and Refurbished Harmonicas.
scott@scottwoerner.com
|
Frank101
19 posts
Oct 14, 2014
8:32 AM
|
All the pictures so far are from the 21st Century, so saying it's a "long tradition" hasn't been supported visually yet. With the mild exception of the Memphis Minnie pic. And there's another of MM standing up & showing a lot of leg. But personally I haven't seen any other traditional female blues artists "showing flesh" (and to match the (SLIGHTLY) risque MM pics there are a number of her wearing dresses that would make June Cleaver look trampy.) Even women in R&B (which isn't the same thing) usually covered up, there's a lot more who dressed like the Raelettes than like the Ikettes. Same kind of thing for guys, the publicity photos, the ones they want potential audiences to see, show them well dressed, usually suit & tie.
Food for thought, possibly: When John Lomax was managing Leadbelly, he insisted on Lead wearing overalls during his shows, as befit an authentic blues singer (thought Lomax). When Leadbelly & Lomax parted ways, Lead dressed the way HE thought was appropriate for a blues singer: suit & tie.
|
JInx
913 posts
Oct 14, 2014
9:02 AM
|
Your premise is forced and quite bizarre>>thesis rejected.
----------
Last Edited by JInx on Oct 14, 2014 9:10 AM
|
chopsy
38 posts
Oct 14, 2014
9:27 AM
|
>> Fish shows her thighs for the same reason Popovic does: a combination of sex appeal and a dare-you-to-say-I'm-just-a-cute-chick-who-can't-really-play guitar. <<
Nailed it right there, and I was totally fished in. Saw the video thumbnail, thought to myself "I bet they are all leg and no talent" and then they delivered on the talent end.
another contemporary example:
some early 20th century flesh for you, Frank
All the naysayers need to dial back their expectations of "a lot of flesh" to 1920s levels and then take another look. Bessie smith was raunchy as hell and I'm sure the amount of leg she shows in the St. Louis Blues film was probably considered scandalous at the time.
Last Edited by chopsy on Oct 14, 2014 9:28 AM
|
kudzurunner
5045 posts
Oct 14, 2014
9:36 AM
|
Good point about dialing back expectations, chopsy. And thanks for that second photo, which is a shot of Mamie Smith. She was actually a somewhat prim vaudeville blues singer, not a down-home shouter like Bessie or Ma, so it's surprising to remember that she had that publicity shot. The one that accompanies this version of "Crazy Blues," her first big hit, is more typical:
|
kudzurunner
5046 posts
Oct 14, 2014
10:00 AM
|
To those who wonder whether this is a serious thread and whether I mean the things that I write: yes.
smwoerner: I've read your post several times and I haven't the faintest idea what you're saying. It seems that you're disagreeing with several points of mine, but then again, it seems that you just don't like several points of mine, which isn't the same as disagreeing with them. (More power to your godfather, BTW.)
Plenty of evidence has accumulated in the course of this thread to substantiate the basic premise.
Frank 101: I'm not sure if you actually clicked the links that I provided, but the Johnny Taylor publicity shot shows him shirtless, and it's not from the 21st century. Of course the great majority of African American blues playing men of a certain level, in urban contexts (northern and southern), certainly favored sharp dressing, including suits. I haven't once suggested anything other than that, so we may all feel free to stipulate it. But stipulating that point doesn't begin to shut down the conversation. (In the summer here in Mississippi, standard dress for younger black blues players is a white tank top--the better to showcase the tats--and loose jeans. They don't do the suits thing.)
The long and noble tradition of showing flesh begins with the classic blueswomen--and since the whole race records tradition begins with Mamie Smith and "Crazy Blues," her photo, posted above, is a good place to start. The photo I linked above, "juke joint woman showing flesh," should convince anybody that there's something worth exploring here. That woman is sister-in-spirit to the big tough knife-toting women that Zora Neale Hurston wrote about when she visited the Florida jooks in the 1920s. Big Sweet. Big Sweet was scarred, and she knew how to scar--and she bragged about both things, and the men sung songs about women like her.
Again, I'll refer people back to the statement I offered way up top: "I'm intrigued by how the body, ultimately, is what the blues are about--or at least blues stagecraft, which always says, "Look at me! Look at how I sweat! Look at my sexual power! Look at the hard life I've lived!" Scars, needle tracks, bruises. Little Walter's scarred face! Bashed in teeth." That's the iconography of the blues: bodily effort, the grimace the bespeaks the pain brought out from deep inside.
The bodies--and again, I think of Little Walter's scarred face--are a place where the sometimes brutally hard life that some blues players live registers as wear-and-tear. The best example of this is Peg-Leg Sam. (Blues people, as we know, sometimes identified each other, and themselves, by disabilities--which is to say, failings of the flesh and bones--including Blind.)
Both blues women and blues men sings songs about the big, bodacious woman who has "meat shaking on her bones." (20th century songs.) Those women may not always show all that meat, but they let you know, by the way they dress and move, that it's all there.
Again, nothing I've written here is news.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Oct 14, 2014 10:07 AM
|
Frank101
21 posts
Oct 14, 2014
10:07 AM
|
yeah, I saw the Mamie Smith shot above. I also saw one of her wearing an outfit that covered every inch of her body from the chin down. That there are so few (moderately) risque pix out of so many suggests in fact that kudzu's speculation of a "long tradition of showing flesh" is incorrect.
As for the "dialing back expectations" bit, just do a google image search for "1920s fashions". You'll learn that nothing Bessie Smith is wearing in the StLB clip would be considered remotely shocking in its time.
|
Goldbrick
726 posts
Oct 14, 2014
10:18 AM
|
Even Big Maybelle spillin out the toppa that dress
I love the 50;s blues shouters
|
Honkin On Bobo
1282 posts
Oct 14, 2014
10:21 AM
|
Chopsy's point about what constituted risque back then is right on. I'm in the middle of binge watching Boardwalk Empire which is set around 1920. They had a scene where a woman was fined for showing too much leg on the beach. Too much back then was about half her thigh (I know its just a TV show, but it still strikes me as plausible).
I'm kinda mystified at the vitriol Kudzu's receiving regarding his observations here. Lord knows I don't agree with all his opinions, but I thought the idea that sex appeal in all its forms (including showing flesh) was central to the blues and rock and roll was pretty much a given. This should be about the least controversial topic on here. Go figure.
Lastly, "bodacious identities" that's a gem, i'm putting that one in my back pocket.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Oct 14, 2014 10:39 AM
|
Goldbrick
727 posts
Oct 14, 2014
10:37 AM
|
And the new "tradition"-
|
smwoerner
279 posts
Oct 14, 2014
11:24 AM
|
smwoerner: I've read your post several times and I haven't the faintest idea what you're saying. It seems that you're disagreeing with several points of mine, but then again, it seems that you just don't like several points of mine, which isn't the same as disagreeing with them. (More power to your godfather, BTW.)
Adam, I mainly disagree with what seem to be some very contrived examples of how blues performers have a long tradition of showing flesh. To say that a performer stripping down backstage and changing clothes is an example of blues musicians showing flesh is huge stretch. This happens backstage at all kinds of shows where there is limited changing area. I just don’t see this as having anything to do with showing flesh as part of the music.
As for men performing in tight tank tops, or what are commonly referred to as wife beater tees, I see this as more of a cultural thing. My godfather, who would be 97 if he was still alive, was raised on a small Tennessee farm, WWII vet, and blue collar worker, and only ever wore tank top style undershirts. Most of the other men of his era that I was exposed too also wore the same style undershirts, except the preacher two doors down, he had sleeved undershirts. When the men would remove their shirts while working tank tops are what you would see. To those men keeping their undershirt on was a jester of modesty. The folks that removed their shirt or did not have an undershirt were basically thought to be either too poor to afford an undershirt or of poor upbringing. Full sleeved undershirts were more expensive, hot for manual work, and worn by those wearing expensive dress shirts and ties.
Thus, I’d say performing in a tank top or tee shirt for older players was just a matter of what they had to wear if they wanted to protect their nice shirt and for the younger players it’s just a copycat style choice like the hipster beards today. I’d say then and today anyone wearing a tank top style shirt is generally identified as being from a lower class and lacking sophistication.
----------
Purveyor of Optimized New and Refurbished Harmonicas.
scott@scottwoerner.com
|
Frank101
22 posts
Oct 14, 2014
11:39 AM
|
The "juke joint woman showing flesh" is wearing an ordinary minidress, the kind JC Penney would have carried at the time. Hardly some kind of boundary-pushing bluesperson statement outfit.
Do an image search for "Ziegfield follies". Gee - they sure were puritanical way back then, huh? LOL. (PS: No blues singers there.)
And to get back to the original post: Samantha Fish & Sadie Johnson aren't dressed like that because they're blues performers. They're dressed like ordinary teenage girls of their time. Maybe slightly more stage-oriented, but that's got nothing to do with the blues: Check out pictures of Taylor Swift (not a blues singer). Check out pictures of Miley Cyrus (not a blues singer). Etc.
|
JustFuya
618 posts
Oct 14, 2014
11:45 AM
|
I'm far from a historian but my image of traditional blues is in a juke where everyone dressed to the nines. It predates Raitt by a long shot.
I did find stills of suggestive dancing by searching "juke joint images" but even as a non-employee, the disclaimer in the OP has me too paranoid to post any in particular.
|
6SN7
486 posts
Oct 14, 2014
12:39 PM
|
I wish a woman would add her two cents to this thread. It always makes me nervous when a bunch of middle age men discuss an issue like this and another viewpoint is very much needed.
|
nacoran
8059 posts
Oct 14, 2014
6:18 PM
|
Drat, it ate my post!
6SN7, agreed, it would be nice to get another perspective. I can understand, even double standards aside, why it might be tough to jump in. There are things people are just taught not to talk about in mixed company. I've heard women talking about a particular lounge singer who wears tight pants, but it was something overheard, not something they were saying they expected guys to hear.
It's funny, sometimes though, even when it's just between guys it's awkward too. I've made some fashion faux pas in my day. When I was a kid, early high school, I had the really tight parachute pants that looked like leather pants (before MC Hammer did his weird parachute pants thing!) and some really tight jeans. I had another guy walk up to me one day and ask if I was stuffing my pants.
NO! I'm just farther along in puberty than you. Now stop looking at my junk!
----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
First Post- May 8, 2009
|
Post a Message
|
