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beginner forum: for novice and developing blues harp players >
Breaking in new harps
Breaking in new harps
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NJenkins83
4 posts
Feb 24, 2017
12:53 PM
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Hey all,
How do you all break in your new harps?
I'll be more specific, does anyone who plays the Suzuki Bluesmasters find they require a break in period?
How bout the other manufacturers harps?
I know in my intro I was waiting on Sp20s, but an order error on my part and a few days mulling I decided to just get the 7 key set of Bluesmasters from Ron.
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indigo
326 posts
Feb 24, 2017
8:26 PM
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There's been a lot of talk over the years about the need to 'break in' Harps.The general consensus is that what's happening in reality is that gradually a bit of gunk builds up on the plate around the reeds and that helps to narrow the gaps a bit making the Harp more airtight and responsive.
True story.
Years ago i'd buy a new harp and in order(in my mind) to break it in i'd drive along holding my new harp out the window.
A cop who had obviously been following me for a while pulled me up for speeding and with a puzzled look said to me "whats with the harmonica out the window, can't you afford a radio"
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Killa_Hertz
2244 posts
Feb 24, 2017
10:13 PM
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I don't break in my harps either.
In fact usually I will take a brand new harp, play it for about 5 minutes, then tear it apart and shape and gap the reeds.
I do find that some harps seem to break in. Meaning they start to play better after a short period of time. Usually a few weeks. This may be due to what MTG said about gunk build up, not sure. But they also seem to loosen up a bit. Reeds become easier play and bend.
But as far as a need to play easy for a while to "break them in".... I don't think it's necessary. Bit that's just my opinion.
I think learning to gap so that you can play easier .. with more breath control .. and less force on the reeds ... That's what makes a harp last. Again ... imo
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MindTheGap
2167 posts
Feb 24, 2017
11:31 PM
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That was indigo mentioning the gunk, not me. But I think that is likely, on harps where the gaps are a bit wide, they'd probably get more responsive over time. I've never found that myself, maybe I'm not gunky enough.
But I've found absolutely nothing to suggest that harps need breaking in, in terms of 'breaking in the reeds gently', like running in a car. I get them out of the box, gap them if necessary and play. Never experienced them getting more responsive, easier to bend or anything like that.
And I don't know of any mechanism that would cause the reeds to break in. What would it be I wonder? With machinery it's about sliding surfaces wearing away small amounts of metal to create a better fit.
Personally I think it's a myth, and it's the player learning to play the harp. So the end product is it feels like the harp is adapting. But as always who knows?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 24, 2017 11:38 PM
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SuperBee
4537 posts
Feb 25, 2017
12:56 AM
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I have scoffed at the idea of breaking in harps. I used to say the harps breaks the player in.
But recently I found someone in the industry taking it seriously and outlining a process I hadn't considered, and I have no idea whether it's valid, plausible, or nonsense.
It's along the same lines as 'work hardening'.
I'm trying to recall the guys name; he worked for hohner and was important figure in getting them to lift their game in the 90s. Rick Epping? Anyway, I think it was via Kinya Pollard that I came across this story so I'll go and see if I can find a link
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SuperBee
4538 posts
Feb 25, 2017
1:03 AM
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Ok, here is the link to Kinya's thread and includes a reference to Rick Epping and his claim of molecular realignment induced by strain, but not his actual claim. It is pertinent to the OP though, as it features Kinya's rig for breaking in harps
Breaking in new harps
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SuperBee
4539 posts
Feb 25, 2017
1:05 AM
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And here is a follow up thread
build a breaking in table
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SuperBee
4540 posts
Feb 25, 2017
1:09 AM
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And here at last is Rick Epping's essay on the subject.
I'm interested to know what you think of this MTG
Reeds
Last Edited by SuperBee on Feb 25, 2017 1:09 AM
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MindTheGap
2168 posts
Feb 25, 2017
1:50 AM
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Thanks SuperBee. The problem I've got with all the stuff I read about 'harmonica science' is where people learn about a generic mechanism/process/effect and say: that's it! When observations don't fit, they seem to ignore them. It's not supposed to be like that.
When they use the fancy science words, and throw in some diagrams, it reminds me of an advert for toothpaste or shampoo or something like that, "Here's the science bit." :)
The Rick Epping article just talks about the generic process of elastic and plastic deformation and work hardening. So when and where do they apply? To be fair, Rick just presents possibilities from the world of metallurgy. But the implication is that breaking-in is a real thing, and here's some explanations. But there's no actual evidence for breaking in, in the first place. It's apocryphal, or is it?
When you gap a reed, you are bending it - that's plastic. When you are playing, that's elastic. Can you 'bend' just using your breath force? Well, I was interested to hear you find some reeds that looked that was had happened. So, could be an intense attack could do that.
I tried it every which way, btw, and couldn't do it. But that's no proof of anything. Mind you I know the effort I to apply to 'bend' a reed with a toothpick and it's considerable. And I used the most bendable-reeded-harp I have. If it were the phosphor-bronze ones, I'd have to be Hercules to 'blow bend' those.
Actually Rick is proposing a gradual work-hardening based on a mix of plastic/elastic. Rather than a gross, one-off plastic bending. Work-hardening is a thing, but in that case, off the cuff, I'd expect the pitch to go up as the reed gets stiffer. Or at least some change in pitch. Do you to retune after breaking it in?
Someone can test this. Take a fresh reed, and an old reed, take a sample and test for work-hardening. Seems a lot less effort than annoying your spouse by hijacking the vacuum cleaner to make a 'breaking-in table'. There must be some long-suffering partners out there :)
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 25, 2017 2:21 AM
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MindTheGap
2169 posts
Feb 25, 2017
1:54 AM
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No disrespect to anyone (well, a little maybe) but why is everyone so reluctant to test any of these ideas? For goodness sake, send a broken reed off to a lab and get it analysed for fatigue, or work hardening or whatever.
I'm not talking about you SuperBee, I'm thinking of the people making a living out of this stuff.
All this is hypothetical, especially for me as I've never bothered to break in a harp, and I've never had a reed break yet.
If someone wants to point some evidence for anything, anything at all, I'd gladly accept it all: metal fatigue, work-hardening, case-hardening, Helmholtz Resonance, leaking combs, mics that crunch, the music of the spheres, reed vibration modes creating harmonics, magic beans, combs that make a harp sound different, bits of brass embedded in the comb that enhance timbre by connecting the reed plates and the opening of the third eye.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 25, 2017 2:19 AM
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MindTheGap
2170 posts
Feb 25, 2017
2:11 AM
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If I had to guess how to improve reed life, and it IS just an educated guess, I'd say to keep the inside of the harp clean and not to tune by scoring at the rivet end. That's because corrosion and surface scratches have a big effect on failure in metals.
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bublnsqueak
79 posts
Feb 25, 2017
2:23 AM
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+1 for MTG's position.
Whenever I get a new banjo or bass there is an initial impression of whether I like it or not, but I am fully aware that I will get used to it and then we become 'friends.' You would never consider that the instrument is changing.
I can see nothing that suggests it's any different with harps.
In my own case I bought a set of Manjis. Couldn't play the things. Put everything except the C Manji away and lived with only that for a few weeks. Once I could get some sort of sensible noises out of the C Manji I found I could play all the others in the set!
Two possible explanations: Either I have adapted my technique to work with the Manjis. Or, the C Manji has communicated with the rest of the set and they have all 'broken in' as a sort of team effort!
I prefer the latter explanation but I suspect the former will hold sway!
Paul
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SuperBee
4541 posts
Feb 25, 2017
2:43 AM
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As I said to Kinya in that first link, I found the RE essay rather vague, but to be fair he uses 'may' rather often.
But yes, work hardening I could relate to, and there was just enough there to make me wonder if I'd made up my mind too hastily about breaking in.
Here is another thing asserted by KP. He is definite that if I tune a reed just past the target pitch, and then correct it, the tuning will be more stable than if I simply tune in one direction.
I have ample opportunity to test that, but I never have, just because I always seem to have too many other things on to bother tracking particular reeds. But perhaps I'll do it; it would actually be good to know if it makes a difference.
That's apparently sourced from dick sjoeberg.
Incidentally, reeds seem to drift sharp. I have found this to be true.
I mean after tuning. If the reeds are played a lot they will gradually flatten, at least they often will. I attribute that to a build up of particles which mainly accumulate on the rivet end. Rolling stone and moss kind of thing I think. Often I can clean a harp up and find it's really quite well tuned.
I agree that cleaning them from time to time is good. I don't think it will prevent reeds from breaking but it does help keep the others in good shape, as long as you don't break the harp with clumsy or misguided cleanup practices.
I have a client who breaks a lot of reeds. But her harps are otherwise in great shape after several years of action. She plays a lot of gigs, a lot of practice, and plays hard.
I'm giving them a very good cleanup about twice a year and they seem to stay in tune quite well.
They're Marine bands, is probably pertinent to mention
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MindTheGap
2171 posts
Feb 25, 2017
3:06 AM
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bublnsqueak - Excellent! I think I just need to give in to the hive mind. I'll be much happier. So I'm going with the harps communicating in the box, it's a nice concept. Maybe it's not breaking in by playing, maybe they mature over time like a fine wine - have you not heard about surface oxidation in metals for goodness sake? :)
It's like having bananas together in a bowl, they ripen the other fruit. (See my cutaway diagram of a banana, annotated in Latin terms, to add veracity).
Ok, let's buy two sets of 7 manjiis. Keep one set in individual boxes, keep the other in a communal box. Then we'll see the truth!
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 25, 2017 3:14 AM
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MindTheGap
2172 posts
Feb 25, 2017
3:10 AM
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SuperBee - interesting about reeds drifting sharp, I didn't know that. You see, you're in a position to note some of these effects, working on so many harps.
Re pitch, for us ordinary players I guess it's hard to draw conclusions on real-world harps because there are competing effects. On the occasions I heard my harps go flat, I thought ah ha at last a breaking reed. Only to find it was caused by some goo on the metal, and washing brought them up again.
I have read about the thing you mention where you tune past the pitch and down again. And if you just tune to pitch it 'relaxes'. Maybe that was for gapping too? I think people recommended gapping, then leaving to rest, then fine-tweaking? Am I right about that?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 25, 2017 4:14 AM
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bublnsqueak
80 posts
Feb 27, 2017
9:23 AM
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Yes: hive mind much safer.
Recumbents Vs uprights. Multihulls Vs monohulls.
Still not resolved despite loads of input.
You can get into a lot of theological trouble with this kind of thinking.
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SuperBee
4548 posts
Feb 27, 2017
11:58 AM
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Gapping certainly can cause a change in pitch. The catch is that tuning can cause a change in gaps, and shape (some call this arc, I haven't adopted that term. But I'm talking about the way the reed enters/closes the slot and bending the reed to effect that action.)
Usually, reshaping and gapping will cause a reed to play flat, so retuning may be necessary, but it is best to leave things a while.
I have been doing this long enough that I have seen some of the same harps back for work more than once. Sometimes I see the reeds I replaced earlier have drifted, so I clearly sent them out too soon.
I have a custom here, beautifully made but went out of tune within a month of receipt. I'll have to retune it myself, post to USA return would be silly. It still plays very well but octaves sound rough. So even pro pros can get it wrong at times. I have another purchased same time, same builder, same type of harp, different key, still in tune despite quite a lot more play time (on account of being a G harp rather than Bb)
I have another custom here too, different builder but equally or perhaps more prestigious than those mentioned above, key of D. When first obtained I was disappointed to find the 2 draw whole step was not stable and would degenerate into squeals if held. So I didn't use it much at first. Now I find it's not a problem, so I think this goes to bublensqueak's point
Incidentally, I first noticed that problem when I replaced the comb with a reputedly flat aftermarket comb. I found the tendency for thevreedplate to squeal was much greater with the new comb so I changed back to the standard wooden comb.
I can only conclude that the reedplate is slightly warped to match the original comb and when placed on the guaranteed-flat comb, the relationship of reed to reedplate changes as a result. I've probably made this point before, but sometimes leaving well enough alone is far less trouble.
Anyway, there is an answer to the question somewhere there. I have to go water some plants before the day heats up. 28 Celsius yesterday, today is predicted to beat that. And similiar forecast for next 10 days. Summer in Tasmania, seems to start in march these days.
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ScottK
44 posts
Feb 27, 2017
3:41 PM
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I have a newish D marine band OOTB, and it takes more breath to play. Its gotten better but not like the G MB I got or the A MB Crossover both which have more sound easily. It sounds in tune and once I start playing I don't think about it. Is this normal because it's a higher key? Or is this when I need to gap a little?
Thanks
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SuperBee
4549 posts
Feb 27, 2017
5:06 PM
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If you are talking about holes 1-6 and just straight blow and draw ie not bending, then yes I suspect quite likely it may be a little too generously gapped.
The high end is harder to call from a text discussion, and difficult bends also may have various causes.
A D harp does present some challenges compared to an A or G, as I recall. In some ways the hohner handmade harps from Db up to High G are actually a different model to those below Db. They use a different template for the slot dimensions, so the 1 slot of a D harp is the same dimension as slot 3 of an A harp. Slot 7 of a D harp is the same size as slot 5 of a C harp. This does make them different to play but the reeds in 1-6 should not require noticeably more effort to merely activate.
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dchurch
111 posts
Feb 27, 2017
10:31 PM
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Hey Nick,
Welcome from another guy from the brass section (trumpet player). The time that you spent on the trombone should help with breath control and pitch…
As for breaking in your new harmonicas I wouldn’t worry about that. But, I do recommend taking it easy on them because newer players need more time to ease into new harps. You may already know that different keys and holes will require different air and technique... and not to blow like a trombone player or reeds can be damaged (just breath). Also, don’t be too quick to blame problems on the harmonica or a reed malfunction.
-How do you all break in your new harps?
Personally, I break in (test) new harps by warming them to body temperature followed by some gentle playing aimed at quality tone. One of my favorite tests is finding the minimum breath to move each reed. Then I run through some scale exercises, splits… while listening for pitch issues and checking responsiveness. Last but not least I’ll test my blow and draw bends. I’ll dismantle and work on a true problem harp day one; otherwise I like to play a few sessions (hours/days) before I start tinkering. I guess I don’t feel like a new harp of mine is broken in until I’ve gone through this process and played it for a couple weeks. It might be in my head, and yes I’m sure some of it is me being broken in with the new harp.
Above all, enjoy that new set of Bluesmasters!
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It's about time I got around to this.
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NJenkins83
5 posts
Feb 28, 2017
7:21 AM
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Wow I opened Pandora's Box with this question! Thanks for all the responses everyone. The wealth of experience on here is staggering.
D thx for the welcome! One thing I have picked up so far is us beginners blow too hard so I'm definitely keeping that in mind. Thanks again all.
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