Hey guys, Since you'be been so helpful in the last few threads I created, I wanted to ask you if you had any advice on playing the blue third. After a lot of hard work I can hit all the bends in the third hole comfortably, my vibrato is getting better and I feel that if I could only manage to play the blue third now, I'd be ready to start learning a more complex blues song. I've watched the videos of Adam and Tomlin Leckie about the blue third and I even checked with a bendometer what they are doing but somehow I cannot get that trilling sound that comes with the blue third (cf. first few seconds of Tomlin's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ouIBUUFPsE). Any advice on how to shape your mouth / play that note, etc.? Greetings, Skullkid
P.S.: Maybe there already exists a thread about this topic but I could not find it via google.
Last Edited by SkullKid on Feb 14, 2017 9:24 AM
Do you mean the sort of barking sound like in this clip below? If so then you bend the 3rd down a bit and add a bit of 4-draw. Allow that to leak in. Because the two notes are dissonant, it makes a grating sound.
IMO the controlled use of that sound is a key element of blues harp. Doesn't get talked about as much as TB slaps and pulls I find. Lovely amplified - you can play very gently and it sounds like you're screaming away.
Actually in Tomlin's clip right the start there, I think he might be doing a bit of throat growl as well, but I don't do that myself, I'm sure someone else can fill in.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 14, 2017 11:42 AM
Thanks for the reply, MTG. Yes, I mean that kind of sound, but regarding the trilling of the blue third, I don't think it's due to a bit of 4-draw leaking in, since in the clip you gave, the 4 draw makes the tone sound different / higher than when Adam or Tomlin are playing the blue third. I don't know if Tomlin and Adam use throat growl, but when they play the blue third in the context of a riff, the trilling is almost always there (Another example of what I mean can be found at 09:48 in Adam's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxNKr1yVh50).
If the clip you posted is from yourself, would you mind adding a clip of you playing the blue third if it's not too much effort? Greetings, SkullKid
Last Edited by SkullKid on Feb 14, 2017 11:45 AM
Well, I can only hint you to the videos of Tomlin and Adam. Most of the time when they play the blue third, it has that trilling (maybe trilling is not the right word? I'm not sure, sorry). Thanks a lot for your clip, this showed me that the "trill" is not necessary for it to be a blue third. I wonder however: When i checked with a bendometer, I realised that your blue third is in the range of the whole step bend (unlike the blue third of Tomlin and Adam, which was in the half-step-bend range), yet it still sounds the same - I am confused. I tried to play the blue third again, but I cannot do it for some reason. Do you have any tips on how to produce the note?
Last Edited by SkullKid on Feb 14, 2017 12:43 PM
No idea then, but hopefully someone will chime in. I wonder what the trill is.
The blue-ness of the blue notes is up for grabs, so despite it being often annotated as a 1/4 step bend (that is 1/2 a semitone. A semitone is itself called a '1/2 step') it can be anywhere between a major third and a minor third - to taste, and depending on the song etc.
When you say 'whole step bend', I think you might mean 'a whole semitone' i.e. the first step down on the bendometer? Although I didn't check the pitch myself. What I mean is that the bends you seen on bendometer are the 3 draw, then 1, 2 and 3 semitones down. You can also bend it a bit flatter than that, like most of the draw bends.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 14, 2017 1:08 PM
As for how to play it - you simply shave a little, or a lot off the unbent 3 draw.
Worth saying that it's so common to play a blue third rather than a major 3rd (3 draw unbent) in 2nd position that some people NEVER seem to hit the major 3rd 'because it's not bluesy'. But it's a valid note and has it's place - particular in avoiding sounding samey.
When I check your recording with the bendometer, the blue third is in the range of the second step bend (two semitones) while for Adam and Tomlin it is in the first step bend (one semitone). Not sure if that's relevant though.... I tried to "shave a little", but the blue third won't come. Tomlin talks about his tongue not moving like with the bends but rather "activating", though I don't know what that is supposed to mean. :D
Last Edited by SkullKid on Feb 14, 2017 1:26 PM
Yes I think you're right. I compared with a keyboard and I'm playing minor 3rd there and quite a flat one at that. I guess I think that 'spoonful' riff is more like a minor-sounding interval to me. As I say, the blue-ness is a moveable feast - there is no actual defined pitch.
Quite often it's a range of pitch, always on the move. There is a sort of convention in blues harp teaching that the blue third lies 1/4 step down. I think that's a (useful) over-simplification.
To play it lighter, I'd just pitch it more towards the major third. When you play with other people rather than solo you have to listen to each other and move your tuning to fit the ensemble.
Anyway the pitch stuff is off on a tangent - I want to know what this trill thing is and how to it.
If you're having trouble with it, I'd follow SuperBee's prescription, which is to practice moving the pitch of the bend continuously up and down until you have total control of it. Then you'll be able to hit the pitch you want accurately. He has more detail.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 14, 2017 2:59 PM
See the thread title "Dennis Gruenling on bending with precision".
I'm actually in the process of lining up some one on one lessons with DG and fully expecting to have my illusions of near-adequacy shattered. This is my experience so far every time I speak with a pro player. But I think I get a little better each time.
As for the blue 3rd; as I understand it, the 'blue 3rd' is not a minor 3rd. It is a 3rd, hit flat, often described as a quarter tone and also often described as not really a quarter tone but somwhere thereabouts.
I'm guilty of hitting the draw 3 habitually with a slight bend. Sometimes I become aware of it and realise it's not appropriate.
Trilling though, I don't know. I assumed same as MTG, that it was about dirtying it up with the 4 draw. It might help if I listen to the examples, so I'll do that before further speculation.
Hi SuperBee, thanks for the suggestion. As Harmlessonica points out in the thread, Tomlin also has a lesson with a similar approach, so I've actually used the method suggested by Gruenling for a couple of weeks (like half an hour a day) and my bends have gotten much better.
The thing is that I have decent controll over the bends in the 3 hole but even if i bend the note down very slowly, I cannot seem to get that blue third sound. I think if someone would describe the method of playing the note in more detail, it could help a lot.
Last Edited by SkullKid on Feb 14, 2017 3:36 PM
Ok i gotta run so i gotta make this quick ... But i cant resist.
Ok i get what your saying with the trill. Thats not what you call it. Im not sure what its called tho.
Ok firstly .. The blue third is trickier than it seems. What i do is (and this is exactly what tomlin is describing by active) i let my tongue sit high in the back of my mouth like im going to bend. But you dont really pull down like your bending. You just kindof let it draaaaag a bit. If that makes sense. And the blue third is a very light incriment above the clean 3. So you BARELY put anything on it. Your just dirtying it up a smidge. But it has to be RIGHT THERE if in letting your tongue just lay there in bending position. .. The suction may move itback a bit which will cause the bend to be heavy. So its a very intential lazyness .. If that oxymoron makes any sense. Hope that helps. You ll get it ... Just once you get it play it everytime you hit the 3 .. Going up and down the harp. It ll be second nature before you know it.
The growl your hearing is like a tongue rattle. Its like making the snoring sound or hockin a loogie but backwards. Obviously you do this very lightly though. Not with the force you would normally.
Get it so the back of your tongue is up against the roof of your mouth ... But pulled all the way back until it is choking you. Then as you attempt to breathe in .. Slow let your tongue forward until that slightest gap opens up.
That should create that sound ... And also be very close to blue third feeling. Just let it relax.
Hope that helped.
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Feb 14, 2017 4:20 PM
SuperBee is quite right of course. In terms of naming the parts, the blue third lies between the major and minor 3rd. All I'm saying is that, for the songs and players I like and I'm trying to emulate, they play fast and loose with those pitches. So please ignore what I'm mumbling on about and start with a precise, formal blue third like Killa is saying.
That said, the blue third is a variation in pitch, not a trill or growl effect, even if Tomlin and Adam are adding something in to make it more 'bluesy'. That's the joy and pain of harp, you often need several techniques combined to give 'the sound'. The danger in not separating them out is that you end up ALWAYS doing the same thing (i.e. your blue third is at one pitch, and has a trill) which is boring.
Personally I think playing the pitch of the (formal) blue third is just another bit of the 3d bend family. You can't say you've got good control of the 3d bends if you can't get every pitch and move about at will between them. It's not just a case of hitting the exact semitone steps, although that is what you need for playing melodies. I think the bendometer is good in that regard, it doesn't just lock into the steps but shows a continuum.
Killa - I still don't get the trill, tongue rattle thing. I thought that Tomlin was maybe doing something at the start of his vid, but not throughout. And I thought Adam was adding at bit of 4-draw. Can you record an example?
For myself, I do think that the 'leaking a 2nd hole' effect is the useful one to add some edge to the timbre, anything from a slight rasp to full blown nasty grit.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 14, 2017 10:55 PM
ok now I've heard TL. Yeah I agree with kHz assessment but also I'd say that's maybe even an unintentional effect he is getting on that note. I'd be interested to know if he can play it without that effect. But I agree it's an instability (intentional or not) in the embouchure which is creating it, not a bleeding in of any other notes.
SK, if you are doing the exercises as described then it is simply a matter of stopping and holding the desired pitch. If you are not able to produce that pitch, then you are not performing the exercise as described. I would suggest using a guitar tuner rather than the bendometer. If I know what 'bendometer' is, I think it lights up when you hit the pitch indicated? (Edit: reading NTG post I see I have no idea what bendometer is. Seems it does show progression. I was thinking of harpninja) You need something that shows you that you are bending the note progressively. So you can take control of it. Also the term 'blue 3rd' is relative to the tonic, and in that lesson TL is talking about a blue 3rd relative to a tonic in 2 draw or 3 blow. In other words 2nd position. In second position the (major) 3rd in the scale is 3draw. The minor 3rd is the half step/semitone bend on 3 draw. The so called "blue" 3rd is between these notes. The whole step bend on 3 draw is not any kind of 3rd. It is a second. And the step and a half bend is a minor 2nd. You can go even further and play a flat minor second whichbonly about 50 cents sharper than the tonic. but that is just nasty. However, that will be the bottom of your range when you play the exercises which require you to go from unbent to fully bent and back in a single breath with no jumps.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Feb 15, 2017 2:42 AM
Yes, good to point out that the 3D bends aren't all '3rds' - that could be an area of confusion.
I see your edit: yes, bendometer is good for this - its graphical display is of that standard diagram of the harp notes including the bends, with an indicator of your note sliding up and down against the 'steps' of the 3 draw bend. Sounds like I should practice with it! But "I know what I like and I like what I know" :) Clearly I like it flat!
Bee, have you listened to Adam's blue third example 09:48 in Adam's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxNKr1yVh50 Do you think that's the embouchure thing too?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 15, 2017 1:02 AM
Ok, I don't know if I ever watched Gussow.090 before but I guess on that particular point where he is playing tongue-articulated 3 draw and trying to initiate a bend, there is a little buzz there. I can't say for sure it isn't a bit of what Rick Estrin calls 'intentional slop' from the 4 draw but it could just be a buzz caused by the tonguing. Ouch! Splinter in my bum from these old palings. Anyway, it's not essential to playing a 'blue' 3 draw. I liked Adam's idea about moving between the major and minor actually. I play both Spoonful and Have a Good Time and that treatment on the 3rd is quite familiar to me. On have a good time I tend to bleed the 4 draw in. It's not really dissonant, it's part of a chord. I think it's a good sound and i feel it helps me avoid bending the 3 too flat. In Spoonful it's a whole other bag. I haven't played it anywhere near as often and I'm still working out what I'm doing, whether to play at all on that part or leave it to the bass. But Spoonful is more of a wailing thing moving between major and minor. I'm going to think about that next time I play it.
My point about dissonance was that if you are playing the unbent 3 and 4 draw together, those are indeed chord notes and so harmonious (well, depending a bit on your temperament). As soon as you start bending one note, they start to become formally dissonant, which we hear as jangle/slop/dirt whatever people call it. For me that sound is an important element in the harp sounding less like a cheery campfire toy and more something darker.
What I remember doing with Spoonful, with the band, was to start on the minor third and bring it up slowly ending nearer the major third. With the bass playing the minor third it made for an ambiguous sound, which I thought was good for that song. Maybe it's taught as simple minor third, or just a blue third, I don't know.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 15, 2017 4:05 AM
Sorry guys. Just got around to reading all this. I will provide an example later .. Sure. Im at work at the moment.
The only time i heard this "rattle" was at the beggining of tomlins video. To meadams seemed rather clear.
However the blue third and 3' draw bend both seem to have a certain characteristic ... No matter who plays them. They have this vibration that reminds me of wax paper vibrating on a kazoo. Does anyone know what i mean?
Perhaps this is also what SK is hearing.
Like i was saying ... To do a good blue third or even a 3' with good tone .. it takes a certain relaxedness (if thats a word) but also a certain punctuation? Or ... Im not really sure how to describe it. Its like relaxed .. But very intentional attack all at the same time .. And it creates that kazoo wax paper sound.
I hope this makes sense to somebody and doesnt seem like im talking out my butt ... Lol.
No sorry I don't get it. I'm still stuck with the idea that you have the note, then some effects added on. Looks like I'm missing something the rest of you can hear/do, so I'll eagerly wait for the sample!
Hm, after hours of trying I cannot seem to hit that note.... I have no trouble with very slowly bending the three hole draw but that kind of note won't come.... Even if I hit the area between the normal draw and the first bend (which should be the quarter bend, no? - but then again, according to my bendometer, that's not the blue third at all) in a riff, it doesn't sound at all like the blue third. :( I will keep trying.
Last Edited by SkullKid on Feb 15, 2017 7:25 AM
This is getting weird - what does the bendometer show? If it's a 1/4 step bend, you're there. If you are looking for some other sound - this trill - I guess Killa will show us. Interesting.
Perhaps a visualization will help. This is where the quarter step bend should roughly be located, right? https://postimg.org/image/4j9q000tt/ Your blue third (which sounds good, don't get me wrong) is located here, however: https://postimg.org/image/3k082qavv/ I am currently not going for the trill but trying to replicate the note without it.
Last Edited by SkullKid on Feb 15, 2017 7:50 AM
We've already established that my so called blue-third was way too flat :) In my defence, I was concentrating on the grating sound rather than the pitch. I can see how feeble that looks now :(
Thanks for the photos - they've updated the interface since I saw it last. I think it used to be the whole box that went up and down. Does the horizontal bar now represent the pitch? Where does it sit when you play the unbent 3 Draw, top/middle/bottom? Anyway for the proper blue third (you know like everyone else plays them), it just needs to be a little bit flat. So, a slightly flat B in this case.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 15, 2017 8:06 AM
Yes, the horizontal bar represents the pitch. The unbent 3 draw is pretty much exactly in the middle (over the "B"). Regarding the blue third: When Tomlin plays it, 50% of the time it's in the range of the second bend ("A", like yours) and 50% in the middle of the first bend ("Bb"). Adam's blue third is in the middle of the first bend ("Bb"), so neither of them hits a quarter bend, according to the bendometer.... I've tried to play a slightly flat B for hours but it does not sound like the blue third at all.
Last Edited by SkullKid on Feb 15, 2017 8:08 AM
...I just went to look at the demo vid on harpsoft. So yes the yellow box quantises to the note you are on, and the horizontal bar seems to be in the middle of the box if you are on pitch.
So you should be aim just to lower the bar a bit, but the yellow box should stay on the B.
Ah, our posts crossed. Well there you are, I'm right after all - there is no definite place where it lies! Formally, it should be like I said above. Yellow box on B, with the line lowered a bit.
I'd have to try this new bendometer to check that the box doesn't flip down to Bb.
In a nutshell, in the key of G:
G is the tonic note A is the 2nd Bb is the minor 3rd -- here lies the blue third --- B is the major 3rd
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 15, 2017 8:14 AM
I just tried but even if i hit the lowest spot on the "B"-box that the bendometer can show, it mostly sounds like a regular 3 draw. After practicing all the time, I can hit every subtle pitch that the bendometer is capable of showing, but the note that comes out sounds either like a regular 3 draw or it sounds like it's bent to much. :( Yes, it appears to be impossible to locate the blue third, at least with the bendometer and recording equipment that I have. But how else could I get that sound? I tried what Killa_Hertz proposed but so far I can't get it.
Last Edited by SkullKid on Feb 15, 2017 8:18 AM
Well, I just had to go and install bendometer. And it's just as I say, you have to hit the unbent 3D and bend that horizontal bar down so it's somewhere in the area between the middle of B and middle of Bb.
And you are correct, Tomlin is right down where I am with his pitch. I just checked Adam's in the vid you mentioned, and he's a slightly flat Bb - so definitely into the minor 3rd. I checked it with a keyboard too.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 15, 2017 8:35 AM
Thanks a lot for installing the bendometer to help me. I will keep trying to find the blue note in that range then. I assume it's more in the "Bb"-box, isn't it?
It's going to be hard because if you do what they say, it won't sound like what they are doing!!!
But if you want to do what they say, try staying at the bottom of the B box, or just into the top half of the Bb box. It only needs the tiniest bit of bending energy there. And you won't sound like either Adam on Tomlin in those vids.
The real answer is as I said originally - you need to adapt to the song. So a very dark, minor sounding song like Spoonful you'd go flatter and for a lighter major-feel blues you might just shave a little off the pitch.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 15, 2017 8:39 AM
Hm, I think I have managed to hit the blue third, but I'm not sure. If I am correct, it is pretty much dead center in the "Bb"-box of the bendometer for me(like in the video of Adam). How can I upload a recording of my play here? If you tell me, I will upload a bit tomorrow - now I have to rest from playing too much, lol. :D
Yes. When i first was trying to hit the blue third I couldnt find a spot between 3 draw and the 3' bend. (1/2 step). But this was because what I thought was the 3 draw was actually the blue third. Because as i was hitting the "3 draw" i still had my tongue in the "bend ready" position. And this was putting that ever so slight bend energy on the note.
So when I dropped my tongue flat and opened my throat my 3 draw got cleaner.
I hope this makes sense. Its hard to explain properly. But basically try to make sure there is no bending energy on your 3 draw. The blue third takes very little bending energy.
And thats why tomlin explains it as Active. Because all you really need is your tongue in the bending position ... You dont actually Pull Down like you would to hit any other bend.
I want to download this bendometer aswell. Im curious as to how accurate I am. Thats interesting to hear that even Adam was heavy. That just further proves the point that Ronnie Shellist says in his video .... Most people go WAY heavy on the blue third.
SkullKid - Sorry but no, the centre of Bb box IS the minor 3rd. You want the boundary between Bb and B. Heed Killa's words on this - it's hardly a bend at all! It will sound higher in pitch than Adam, Tomlin or me.
Anyway - what about this trill thing? That's what I want to know???
As for recording, we've been using the www.box.com website, where you can upload an mp3, 'share' to copy some HTML and it gives an embedded player, like above. Meanwhile Killa has been doing his on youtube.
All this tenacity is a GOOD THING though, having a nut to crack, and crack it you will.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 15, 2017 9:58 AM
@ MTG: Maybe it's just the bendometer not being accurate. Neither Adam nor Tomlin are between B and Bb, but either dead center on the Bb or even in the A. Also, the only time when the note I played sounded like a blue third was when the bar was dead center on the Bb. :X. Maybe you can upload another recording where you play the blue third between the B and Bb to show me how it's supposed to sound with higher pitch. As I said, I will try to upload a recording tomorrow (thanks for the explanation on how to upload).
As for the trill: It's on most of Tomlin's and Adam's blue thirds. Check the times I gave for the videos or watch the whole videos, you should be able to hear it.
Last Edited by SkullKid on Feb 15, 2017 10:08 AM
I think it is accurate, and I checked against a keyboard. It's a good program, much better than just a tuner IMO.
I don't think I can add any more to this I'm afraid, other than to repeat that if you play your blue third at the pitch people say you should, it's just a little inflection on the 3 draw. It won't sound like Adam and Tomlin's examples.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 15, 2017 11:12 AM
As I said, I think I can now play the sound that Adam and Tomlin are playing, but it's not the 1/4 step bend, but rather the Bb or A bend. Is it the blue third or not? I'm getting desperate. :D
SK, you have to understand the concept of what is the 'blue' 3rd
If Adam or Leckie are using a C harp and playing an A, they are not playing a blue 3rd or any other kind of 3rd. That is a second. Here is the major scale for key of G:
G A B C D E F# G
The tonic (which Adam refers to as the 'root') is G The second is A
The 3rd is B
The 4th is C
Etc
The G is in 2 draw and 3 blow on your C harmonica
The B is in 3 draw
The A is missing but you can get it with a whole step bend in 3 draw
If Adam or Leckie or Aunty murgatroyd plays an A in this context, it is a 2nd, not a 3rd. Not a blue 3rd or a minor 3rd
The minor 3rd is Bb. It is a half step bend in 3 draw. It is halfway between the B and the A
By definition it is not a 'blue' 3rd, but it is an important note in 'blues' and because it gives a 'minor' feel to the scale it does sound 'bluesy'
What Adam talks about in Gussow.090 is the tension between major (B) and minor (Bb). He is talking about the music in the crack between B and Bb. That's where the 'blue' 3rd lives. It's not really a note at all. You can't play it on a piano. To play it on guitar you have to bend the string. It's not defined any tighter than that. You can call it a 1/4 tone, but that's not really what it is. It just lives in that space between the major and minor.
Why do they make videos in which they fail to demonstrate the concept they discuss? Because they have feet of clay and they were in a real-world situation, talking to a camera.
But did it sound ok to you?
I suspect it did sound ok. Part of the battle with playing an instrument like the harp is that the pitch varies, even when you are not trying to bend. Reeds go out of tune. The pitch is affected by breath force, condensation, 'drift' as the metal ages, and the instruments may never have been tuned accurately to begin with.
The blue third thing is all relative to what is going on around it. I've seen harps on my bench that are as much as 40 cents sharp of 440, the standard orchestral tuning. I can make a harp play 20 cents sharp just by changing my embouchure.
I've also seen them very flat.
If your tonic note is flat, then your in tune 3rd will sound sharp. But usually with a 'compromise-tuned' harp (as distinct from an equal temperament tuned harp), the draw 3 will be tuned to something like 440 while the 2 draw may be at 443. That will represent about 12 cents difference, so the 3 draw, the major 3rd of the scale, will already sound a tiny bit flat
You might play the harp by yourself and sound fine. Then you play with accompaniment, and sound out of tune. Welcome to harmonica!
Once you start to hear how out of tune it often is, you have to either embrace it and live with it or try to be more in tune. That's one of the really big challenges of playing the harp. Guitarists these days just tune up and have devices that help them do that. You can tune your harp too, but it's not quite so straightforward.
It's truly a world of constant pain, where you either endure and strive to overcome, or relax a bit and don't stress too much. Kinda like the same place the blue third occupies. Life is shit, but sometimes it seems pretty good. And then you die.
Thanks for the detailed explanation, SuperBee. The thing is this though: How can I play a blue third if I don't have any auditory example about how it should sound? It is impossbile to say if Adam's and Tomlin's play sounded "okay" if I don't have a frame of reference by which I can judge(it sounds bluesy, sure, but so does the two hole draw,etc.). I also find it hard to believe that two pro players would fail to make a note in videos where they play said note countless times. I find the explanation more logical, that their explanation is wrong to be honest, but what do I know. I can't try to hit something if I don't know what I am trying to hit, so at this point, I think it would be super helpful if somebody uploaded how the blue third would sound if it is played "correctly" (according to theory and bendometer).
Last Edited by SkullKid on Feb 15, 2017 5:19 PM
I'm not trying to be hard to get on with. You have measured the notes they played. It is you whom has established they are not playing a 'blue' 3rd. It's not a matter of opinion. In key of G, A is the second note of the scale. If you measure a sound you are hearing and it's an A, that's what it is. In key of G it's simply not any kind of 3rd. It's a 2nd. Actually it's THE 2nd. By definition.
And in key of G, Bb is a minor 3rd. B is a major 3rd. The perhaps mythical 'blue 3rd' lies between B and Bb. Sometimes it's more like B, sometimes more like Bb. It's that space. That's just what it is. It's that 100 cents between B and Bb. The reason you can't measure it is probably because it keeps moving. How can you play it? Just play the major and the minor. If your minor is sharp or your major is flat; you've got it!
I've got an idea which I think is good. Write to Adam and to Leckie. Ask them.
In addition, SkullKid, see if this video helps. I think it's easier to get it on the guitar because you can start on a bona fide minor third and bend it UP a little to the region of the blue third, and it's easier to keep it in the right region.
Typically the blue third isn't hit straight, but done that way, i.e. bent UP from the minor towards the major. You can do that on the harp - if you have good bend control. Hit the minor third straight (the Bb) and let it bend up SLIGHTLY towards to the B for the duration of the note. If it sounds bluesy like his guitar, then you have it. That travel from minor to major is part of the sound.
He also mentions what keyboard players do to emulate the blue third. They can't bend the notes so they 'crush' the minor and major notes together (two keys on the piano, right next to each to each other a semitone apart e.g. B and Bb). That mimics the ambiguous pitch of the blue note. You'd recognise the sound in an instant.
You can hear it a bit even in the examples I posted. OK, so I started a bit flat, but on the long note of each phrase I bend UP a bit into the region.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 15, 2017 11:30 PM
As a footnote - the thing about the guitar vs the harp is that bends on the guitar go sharp, on the harp they go flat. Everything you do on the harp tends makes the note go flat - bending, blowing/drawing harder. You have to take special measures to keep the pitch up. (Interestingly, overblows can be bent up, but that's Modern Stuff).
As a result, blues harp tends to be played on the flat side. The danger of using tuners and bendometer is that you get hung up on the exact pitch - when in fact your fav records often have slightly flat harp pitches on.
That IS in part the sound of the blues harp.
A good example is the iconic blues harp note - the 2 Draw Double Step Bend. Which formally should be a minor 7th, the top note of the Dominant 7th chord that is the bedrock of blues songs. On the harp, it's almost always played super-flat. And that's the way everyone likes it.
I know this is the beginner's forum, but people need to know this stuff.
When I play my so-called 'blue third' I tend to start really quite flat, and let it bend up towards the unbent major 3rd. I could start it dead on the minor 3rd - I have the ability. But I like it flat coz it sounds darker like that.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 16, 2017 1:01 AM
OK. Sorry guys I didn't have enough time to do a video. Just got a new phone and I'm trying to sort it out.
I did download a few tuners after looking at bendometer ..but on android they all seem unreliable.
I don't have an account setup to pay for the bendometer.
I think bee makes a great point. A lot of the time with harp (I have noticed this playing against good tuners) most of what you play is either sharp or flat ... depending on the harp, how long you have been playing it (how much moisture has accumulated on the reeds) , etc.
But the main thing I think is the relation to the surrounding notes. ??? Maybe not... you know how much I know about theory. But it seems to make sense to me.
Still if Adam is really off by that much.... that does seem a little odd
Hm, I found another video from Adam where he talks about the blue third, and this time it's really in between the B and Bb (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMfPpOd9K7M).
@ MTG: I will watch that video later, thanks. A friend of mine who is a bassplayer has also offered to help me out with hitting that note, so I will visit him soon, maybe this helps.
@ Killa_Hertz: You don't have to pay for the bendometer.
@ SuperBee: I already wrote to them yesterday, no reply so far. :)
I think I'm beginning to get the blue third now! The video of Adam that I posted in my last post is imho much much better for learning the blue third than the lesson he made specifically for that note. Thank you all so much for your help and bearing with me, I am sorry that I created such a hustle, but the two videos of Adam and Tomlin about the blue third really confused me. :P
In the "new" video of Adam, the trill is gone (pun intended). I have no idea how Adam and Tomlin created that sound, but I asked Tomlin about it - maybe he will answer.
Last Edited by SkullKid on Feb 16, 2017 7:42 AM
Skull kid... no I quite like when people create a hustle. Gives us all something to talk about.
On my Verizon galaxy ..when I go to the play store the bendometer is $1.99 I can download the bendometer layout version for free but it's just a harp layout. It doesn't appear to DO anything interactive.
I will get a video up tonight on the growl or "trill" ... I promise.
Btw... "the trill is gone". That was gold ... lol. Love it. Hahaha
