I began the post below on the adult forum, but lost my nerve (not really, actually. Just figured this is the place for the question). "So, I am not at all one of those music theory deniers. But I seem to run into walls when I start trying to 'learn' it. Are there three or four things that I should focus on, relevant to harp? "Music theory" covers a mountain of stuff. Where does one start?" What are the essentials? Need some advice. Thanks. ---------- Phil Pennington
Great Post Fil. I think alot of us are in the same boat. Its not that we dont want to learn, but just don't know where to start. Everytime I try ... I get to the edge of that mountain of information and say.. "screw it. " Too much like work. .lol.
After reading the thread in the MF, I have planned to take another stab at Bluesharmonica.com. I have the next two weeks off .... and i plan on doing a bit of serious learning. Lol.
I don't know the answer, but it's a great question. The thrust of that vid on the MF was that it was useful for communicating with a band. So these are the bits of 'theory' I've found useful in that setting (for a blues-based band). A music student would hardly call these theory! But they are practical things, within reach.
- Knowing which harp key and position relates to which music key, especially for the commonly used ones, which for a guitar-based band tend towards the sharp keys. Superbee wrote a survey of the keys his band uses. e.g. guitarists like E, A, D, G - that area.
- From a tonic key (the basic key a song is in, the I chord) knowing what the IV and V chords are.
- In the harp positions you use, knowing where each scale degree sits on the harp. Ideally for the I, IV and V chords. This is different from being able to name all the note names on each harp. The advantage of the diatonic instrument is that you only have to learn it on one harp key and it works with all the others.
- Knowing the chord tones of I, IV, V in whatever positions you use.
- For songs that have (gasp) four chords, know where a few choice notes from other common chords e.g. ii or vi.
- Being aware of the major/minor feel of the song, blues songs can be ambiguous in that regard and harp players don't stick to it rigidly either. Being conscious of what to play in either mode.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 15, 2016 12:24 AM
I really need to work on the scale degree one. That's a biggy i think. I risky suck at the theory part.
And while there still is the argument. .. "How much theory is actually necessary in blues. " I think anyone would agree that those things are essential.
Ive gotta stop being lazy and learn this stuff. I was watching Mike Rubins meat and potatoes videos. But since the move i have yet to hook up wifi and that's really throwing a wrench in things.
Im getting it hooked up on Monday, so i can spend my time off really learning some stuff.
I think the C harp is easiest to work with at first. For the obvious reasons. I memorized the notes, but not the scans degrees. The only reason i know the notes is because rubin repeats them every other video. Anyhow, thats to of my list. Trying to learn note relations and scale degrees over the three main chords in atleast 2nd and 3rd position.
I haven't worked with 1st much yet so I'll leave that out for now. But i want to touch on the scales in 1st atleast.
If you know the C harp so you can name every note in every hole, good start. Then the 2nd position mixolydian scale. Holes 2 - 6, 6-9. And learn them as scale degrees. And learn the chord tones for 2nd position. Play (scale degrees) Root, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 6th, 5th, 3rd as 1/4 notes. Tell yourself what you're doing as you do it. If you don't think about it you'll be able to do it very easily but when you think about it you'll probably make mistakes. That's ok because you are learning something different. Mistakes help keep you focused. Do that 1/4 note exercise over a jam track, something not too fast and with a strong regular 1/4 note feel, like a jimmy reed shuffle. Just on the I chord. Every second time up, substitute 6 blow (octave) for 5 draw (flat 7) While you're at it, just to make it a bit more challenging for your brain to play it and think about at the same time, try alternating use of 3 blow and 2 draw. And play it with a straight feel and alternate with a swing feel. If you get too good at it, try doing it as 1/8th notes, oh no, now maybe it's too much about playing. So how about the IV chord. Learn the 1st position mixolydian scale in the lower octave (holes 1-4) and play that over bars 5 and 6, same deal. And you get great practice moving between the 3" and 3' in both directions. And you get to do the same on the V chord for 3rd position in holes 1-4 except you only get 1 measure to practice on. So you can either go up in 3rd and back in 1st or just stay in 3rd on the way back. Try it both ways. You can also do this over a track in a different key so you get to practice the 1st and 3rd position more. Rather than using different key jam tracks to practice the 1st and 3rd position scales/chord tones, You could just change harps. So you can just use a track in A say and play a D harp for practicing second position over the I chord. Then if you want to practice playing the 1st position a bit more you can use the same track with an A harp, and just play over the I chord, and to get in more time in 3rd you can get a G harp and play 3rd position over the I Chord.
In 3rd position you'll need to practice your 2' to get this. And the movement from 2' to 3" will likely be a challenge. It's a fundamental skill to build while you learn the theory.
Anyway, that's a great bang for buck exercise to get you thinking and learning basic theory as well as moving around on the harp and getting your time down as well. You could pay a pro teacher $75 an hour to run you through that, or you could just accept it as a gift from me at Xmas ;) It is a powerful (series of )exercise.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Dec 15, 2016 12:23 PM
I knew it was the right call, posting the question here. Thanks Bee, Killa, MTG, Timeistight. Good helpful advice. Hope the thread continues for a bit. Merry Christmas ---------- Phil Pennington
Pick a subject, any subject. It's an incredible age we live in. A seemingly never ending education is ours for the taking. Thanks to the generosity of people that are willing to share and institutions like the University of Edinburgh.
You can enroll for the full online course "Fundamentals of Music Theory" for free if you don't need the credits.
As a long time student of Dave Barrett, this is what Dave would tell you is the bare bones, essential music theory:
1) Learn the notes of the C harmonica 2) Learn the notes of each chord (if you're playing in 2nd, it'll be GBDF on the I, CEGBb on the IV, and DF#AC on the V) 3) Find those notes on the C harmonica and practice playing the appropriate tones over the chord changes (maybe arpeggiate)
Start with 2nd position, and keep in mind that each harmonica has the same layout. I mean that, if you learn how to do this on a C in 2nd position, you can do it in any harmonica. After you've been playing a while and you're comfortable, learn how to do this in different positions. ---------- Marc Graci YouTube Channel
Ha! My brain can't help but translate those notes into the locations on the harp. I see F# and I'm thinking 2', Bb 3', A 3" it's automatic. I like that. A few years ago I would've had to think about it.
SuperBee I’m sure my goals and needs are different than yours. The “automatic” comment just gave me an ironic flashback.
I struggled for quite a while to put notes out of my mind. I spent several decades using notation for trumpet. I was never an ear player until I started harmonica. I took the full immersion route by staying away from notation and working strictly with Solfege instead of notes. I eventually pulled it off to the point that I automatically think in tones rather than notes.
Now if I could only make my brain automatically use the metric system without those pesky mental comparisons to imperial units. Ho-ho-ho
I expect your a long way up the road from where I am. I believe I read about your musical education somewhere here. I'm thinking back a few years to when I couldn't really communicate with other musicians except in a trial and error fashion. So I'm pleased to see that some changes are happening. We changed over to metric measures here in the early 70s. I was in primary school. I use miles and kilometres, and became used to converting from one to the other when my first car had speedo calibrated in mph while the road signs were all kph. But generally I've got both imperial and metric for many things, and a bit of US. I do think I've gradually been eliminating some of the automatic imperial measures I used to still use. Feet and inches, pounds and stones. The things I learned very young stayed with me longer.
I would think that first memorizing the notes scale value would be more advantageous. That way you know them all. ... all the harps.
If you learn the notes on the C harp, you still have to figure out what degree that note is in order to convert it, ib order to figure out what the same hole is on an A harp.
I realky prefer to play by ear also, but i think it's very valuable information to be able to talk to other musicians. That's why i want to learn it. So its not "lets dumb it down for the harp player ... just grab your A harp and cmon." Lol.
Ive found a few resources so far. Im trying to learn a few basic 1st position scales so that i can follow the excersise Bee layed out. I like that.
Then im going to try to get down the scale degrees in all the positions on a C harp.
Good to learn both, if you have time. But for me, playing blues on a blues harp in a blues band, knowing the scale degrees (numbers or Solfege as dchurch says) is what I use practically all the time. Only occasionally I need to refer to the note names. I talk to the others in terms of chord numbers in the song key (I IV etc.) chord names and treatments (E A7 A9 etc.) and scale degrees (play a minor 3rd there...)
Guitarists often like talking in chord names and shapes. e.g. 'a D-shape up on the 5th fret'
If you are reading standard notation a lot, or maybe your teacher or teaching materials use note names, of course that's what you need.
Other instruments, knowing the note names is a essential - just what you do. But the diatonic harp IS a different beast.
Learning classical piano was all about playing the notes, and only a tiny bit of understanding why - more of an add-on. I was missing out by not appreciating the scale degrees and what they meant and sounded like in context. Playing harp has opened that up, and I find it satisfying.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 17, 2016 9:14 AM
MTG, couple of questions, for which I ask patience... Could you give an example of a chord name? Do you mean like 'dominant' or 'diminished'? And 'treatments'? I've spent the last few hours pulling together a dictionary of music terms that seem relevant to harp. It's striking to me how interrelated they are, which should have been obvious from the start. I'll have to keep coming back to them, and now have to take my harp thinking beyond holes to scale degrees, tonics, roots and chord numbers. Would love to be able to talk to others in the language. Dcchurch, your solfege comment opened a window for me. ---------- Phil Pennington
If you know positions and scale degrees you are at home on any harp but i think when you are getting to grips with the basic concepts, having concrete examples and note names helps. Understanding the circle of 5ths for instance. Learn the lingo and the layout. I've done the basic stuff Dave Barrett teaches in his theory lessons up to level 3, just to sign off the test but there was nothing there I didn't already know from spending time with Jimi Lee. He used to quiz me a bit, getting me to do things like 'play the 3rd of 2nd position, give me 5th of 5th position', that kind of thing. And playing arpeggios of various chords, playing scales in different positions, and different modes of those scales. For instance 3rd position in the low octave with standard bends can give you a major scale, mixolydian scale, Dorian minor and natural minor. If you mess around with that stuff for a while you do begin to learn it. Not only do you learn the theory but you learn to hear it, and recognise what you're listening too, relate to it, join in.
One of the biggest deals for me was playing country tuned for a while. Just changing one note a half step (5draw tuned a half step higher) creates so many possibilities in the middle octave (you can bend it for the standard 5 draw). That is when my understanding began to noticeably step up. But it was a step. I'd accumulated some basic info already. It was the twist on that which got me fired up again. The brain will fairly quickly turn things into habits so you need to shake it up periodically to continue learning.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Dec 17, 2016 1:40 PM
Yes, good to learn both. I'm just saying if you're time limited what I've found more useful. I guess I'd say that note names are good for communicating, and the scale degrees are better for getting inside the music.
With my cornet learning, I'm back into traditional playing the dots and squiggles, because that's what's required. It does seem a bit odd now though, having spent a few years playing from chords. Almost like dumbing down, in a way.
But yes, it's about major, minor, diminished, augmented. Which is about how the basic triad (root, 3rd and 5th) are constructed. Then there's the inversions - the order in which they are played, lowest to highest.
Then you have additions and alterations (extra higher notes included), suspensions (where you replace the 3rd with something else), power chords...
Too many to list here. Point is that different types of music tend to use more or less of these types. For instance blues uses Dominant Seventh chords a lot, and it gives a characteristic sound (have a look at all the seventh chord variants!)
If you want to sound like Steely Dan, they made heavy use of something they called a 'Mu-Chord'.
Anyway, most guitarists even if they don't know the theory of how the chords are constructed, they will know the chords by name. One of the methods for learning/playing guitar is a set of standard chord shapes that they play at various locations on the fretboard.
I'm not a skilled guitarist myself, but I do know some of these things, and it makes for good shorthand. "Play a Hendrix chord there" or "That needs a more jazzy sound, try a 9th" or "That needs a heavy sound, try a power chord".
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 18, 2016 1:17 AM
Bringing it back to the harp, the options for altered chords are a bit limited. But in 2nd position you get the Dominant 7th for free so to speak. And if you want to sound a bit like Paul Butterfield (or Ted on the MF) you can use 6D a lot to give a 9thy feel.
That is one use of the upper register in 2nd position, to add in notes to the 'chord' for a different flavour. In a band setting, where other instruments are playing other notes from the chords, that's a thing.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 18, 2016 1:25 AM
You may or may not have seen these already, but ..... i think these really brought the two points made by Bike&Harp and Myself together pretty well. About the advantages of learning scales .... aswell as the advantages of keeping it simple. And balancing the Rhythm Harmony and Melody all together.
I realise more and more how much i have to learn.
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Dec 23, 2016 4:58 PM
