Bike&Harp
44 posts
Dec 07, 2016
8:26 AM
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Guys i sold some guitar effects and raised some money and i'm thinking of buying a couple of new harps. Between the two above. I've always been a SP20 man since i started and really like them. I tweaked them and embossed them and they sound great. But Jason Ricci waxes lyrical about the Manji so i was thinking about them. Trouble is here in the UK i can get two SP20's for the price of a Manji. Are they worth the extra cash? Reviews i've watched on YT have been mixed regarding the Manji. I don't want to fork out the extra and find there's not a lot of improvement. I tried the Rocket because of the reviews saying it was the loudest harp. I bought a Bb and it's cool and everything but i don't hear it being any louder than the SP20 i embossed. So you do tend to wonder if it's mostly marketing these claims. Anyway tell me guys what do you think?
Last Edited by Bike&Harp on Dec 07, 2016 8:27 AM
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bublnsqueak
66 posts
Dec 07, 2016
9:04 AM
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I was in exactly the same boat a year or two back. Tried lots of types while I was learning.
Eventually, led by the reviews etc and the belief that life is too short for cheap instruments, I bought the set of 7 Manjis direct from Japan.
I was horrified, I could toot a bit but bends etc were really not what I was expecting. Worry Worry.
Another belief I hold is that, for the most part, it's not the harp that breaks in but the player gets to know the harp.
So I put all the other harps away and only played the Manjis. Further, I put the C harp in the car and only played that.
Can't remember how long it took (months) but now I am a member of the Church of Manji.
Really Really like them, have bought the low Manjis and a few second hand ones to fettle.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
Paul
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Bike&Harp
45 posts
Dec 07, 2016
11:18 AM
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I was thinking of a low F Manji, for something different. The only thing i am wary of is they say the volume is not that good on low harps as a whole. I like my harps to be loud.
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SuperBee
4324 posts
Dec 07, 2016
4:32 PM
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I had one. It was ok. It cost more money than the other harps I liked, was more difficult to repair. It sounded like a harmonica and needed similar skills to play. I didn't choose to pay more money for something that was essentially the same but harder to mend and for which spare reeds are not available. Just couldn't see any upside
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Ian
392 posts
Dec 07, 2016
4:43 PM
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I like them.... I don t like them as much as marine bands (deluxe), but I like them. They have a unique scratchy brassy tone.
I'd say they need a bit more power behind them than a marine band and sp20.
You may as well buy one, cos your gonna one day no matter what. If you like it buy more!
I'd try a marine band deluxe as well if you are in the market for a new harp.
My route on the harp discovery highway was... Blues Master, manji, crossover, 1847, then finally marine band and marine band deluxe and I've settled there for quite some time now (relatively!).
To actually answer your title.... For me it would be manji.
Last Edited by Ian on Dec 07, 2016 4:45 PM
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dchurch
73 posts
Dec 07, 2016
5:02 PM
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I have few Manji in the collection including a low C. I also have a few Special 20s. They are both fine harps.
I think the S-20 is a better 1st harp. I believe it would be easier to learn on due to the protruding plastic comb. That feature also makes it easy on the mouth. I also rate it among the highest for taking abuse (along with Lee’s).
But if you’re ready to try something different I think the Manji is a great choice. I would rate the Manji slightly above the 20 if for no other reason than the solid comb. I also feel the Manji cover plates are slicker, although they are more fragile than the 20. The low F is a good choice. Volume won’t be a problem like it can be with lower keys. The volume should be pretty similar to your current G harp.
The Manji has a very cool sound, and I like how they fit my hands. I indent the ends of all of my Manjis along the cover plate outline.
I don’t know how to rate the average Manji playability OTB because my sample is pretty small and like you I tweak my harps anyway. I believe the Manjis require less embossing than Special 20s because the reed to slot fit looks tighter to my eyes.
Something you may have already considered: The Manji has welded reeds. So tweaking it can be slightly different than your Special 20s. For example you can’t swing a reed out of its slot to make embossing more convenient. And replacing reeds is different, not a negative IMO, just different.
I already mentioned the comb, but if you take the Manji apart and flatten the comb you basically have a custom comb that would cost you 25 bucks plus shipping. I thought that might help you justify the higher price of the Manji in your area.
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It's about time I got around to this.
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ME.HarpDoc
214 posts
Dec 07, 2016
8:12 PM
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B&H, my quiver contains some Harpmasters, Bluesmasters SP20s and a solitary Manji in G which I was not fond of until I had a custom comb and new cover plates placed by Tom Halchak of Blue Moon Harmonicas. It's better but still not my favorite tone. My SP20s also have Blue Moon combs ( my other harps don't) and I like them.
When I heard you liked to play loud and were looking at a low F, I thought of my new favorite harp, my Lucky 13 by Easttop in F. It gives both normal F plus Low F in one harp and it's LOUD with just normal breath effort. I also picked up an Easttop diatonic in D as a backup to my Blue Moon combed Harpmaster and found I liked better. The Lucky 13 costs slightly more than a Manji but it's like getting two harps in one.
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Killa_Hertz
1978 posts
Dec 07, 2016
9:01 PM
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Ok well ill try to give my view on the Manji as objective as i can.
I think the manji is a very well built harp. Probably the best ootb harp out there quality wise.
Having said, its not my favorite harp either.
It seems to me that it takes a bit more attack to play. So if you like to play soft you will likely have issue with it. If you play harder you will likely love it.
The comb does not sit flush in the front, this i don't like either. So i replaced all mine wity bluemoon combs.
The nice thing about it is that, being it takes more attack, the reeds feel like you're really grabbing something when playing them. If that makes sense.
This is something i missed when going back to hohners.
My compromise is Seydel. The stainless reeds are somewhere in between hohner and the suzuki bronze reeds.
So as of late i have gone back to the session steel and 1847.
Hope that helps.
I guess the moral of it all is, you really gotta try em yourself. But u really like the session steel. Especially with the 1847 coverplates
I would have liked to elaborate more on the manji but typing on my phone is quite annoying. 8^/
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Dec 07, 2016 9:03 PM
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bublnsqueak
67 posts
Dec 07, 2016
10:11 PM
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Couple of other pro Manji points (not anti SP20):
Protruding cover plates: If you leave out the centre front screw the comb will slide forward so it is all flush against your lips.
Cost: As mentioned above, I bought the set of seven Manjis with a nice neoprene case direct from Japan. After a little wait and UK import taxes it cost me £200. That price is in SP20 territory. Better when you include the case.
Sometime later I bought 4 Low Manjis. Didn't get taxed this time - £100.
Had to buy in bulk and it took me a while to get going. Currently very happy with harps, trying to buy some talent from somewhere.
Edited to say that I think the Low Manjis sound fantastic through an amp with a bit of volume & bite!
Paul
Last Edited by bublnsqueak on Dec 08, 2016 3:33 AM
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Killa_Hertz
1983 posts
Dec 08, 2016
5:27 AM
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Of all my manjis ... i like the lower ones best. And the high ones too actually. The ones i don't care for are the C and D. I like the F. And the Bb down to Low C. Ive got low c, d ,Eb, and F. Regular keys A, Bb, C, D, F.
I didn't know you could slide the comb up with that center screw out. Great tip.
Anyhow, i wouldn't go crazy buying a ser or anything. I do think that if sp20 is your harp of choice you will likely not like the manji. Atleast at first. Especially at double the price ... ouch
I think session steel would really suit you better.
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Bike&Harp
46 posts
Dec 08, 2016
8:46 AM
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Nice thoughts guys. I have a couple of session steels in powerbender and powerdraw tuning. I like them, though they seem a bit too mellow for my total satisfaction. I like something with a bit more punch. What about the 'Crossover' has anyone tried one of those?
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Fil
230 posts
Dec 08, 2016
10:12 AM
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My preference is SP20. I added Crossovers in A and C and have payed them a fair amount. I think the SP20 is a bit brighter to my ears, but I can't say I prefer one over the other. I jam with both and, frankly, can't tell a difference thru the amps. I have a LO lo F and an 1847 Bb, I don't care for the LO shape and I have gotten so used to the SP20 model. The Seydel has a real nice tone, but I'd have to spend more time with it to get comfortable. Might continue to add Crossovers as I replace harps, but I'm not sure the price differential represents real added value.
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Phil Pennington
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Bike&Harp
48 posts
Dec 08, 2016
11:19 AM
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You know something? I think i'll stick with my SP20's and get other keys in that. From the reviews i've seen and read there doesn't appear to be a massive difference in the quality between a SP20 and a Manji or a crossover. Or else i've heard Manji's are harder to bend on and are more difficult to adjust to.
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dchurch
74 posts
Dec 08, 2016
11:40 AM
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Regarding loudness: My Manjis are average and my Special 20s are above average. My Lucky 13 is the loudest harp in my collection. My Suzuki Hammond is my quietest harp. That’s the short answer.
Here’s the long version:
Not too long ago I reviewed the Lucky 13. It sounded louder to me which got me thinking. I decided to do some testing. Back at the old “day job” I was once certified by Oregon DEQ to conduct sound level tests. Anyway, I tried to conduct a fair test.
I tested a couple dozen harps of various makes, models, keys, age… All of these were in good condition, properly gapped with various degrees of embossing. Some had custom combs but I made a point to add a second or third harp of the same model that was stock. I also added a middle key harp for any low harp in the mix. Some of the harps have special tuning but all have stock 4,5,6 holes. The test was conducted in my quiet shop. The decibel meter used was a Galaxy S7. I tested each harp 24 inches from the meter.
I played around with a few methods of testing/controls. I decided that single notes were not the way to go. I also ruled out draw notes. They often sound louder but didn’t meter that way.
I decided to test using the 4,5,6 blow combination because it gave me consistent peaks and I felt it helped average a harps overall loudness. And as I mentioned earlier these are original reeds and tuning on all of my harps.
My first test was blind, I noodled around a bit then hit the 4,5,6 for maximum volume uncupped. I set the meter to capture the peak volume. I noted the results of each harp. For the second round I just watched the live meter and pushed for the maximum dB and recorded that mark.
I can’t quote numbers because my memory is not that good. But I did confirm that some harps are in fact louder than others. The difference between the loudest verses quietest was roughly 4dB. A difference of 4dB is significantly louder to the human ear (which the dB scale is based on).
The majority of my harps measured very close to equal loudness. Again the Manjis fell in the middle. My Special 20 *C tested between one and two dB from the Lucky 13 *A (I only had one L13 to test at the time).
All of the harps that I tested are ones that I play, some more often than others. I play a lot of Seydel steel, Manji, Marine Band and Golden Melody. My Hammond (quietest) is seldom played but I had the least experience playing the L13 (loudest).
The results from the blind round and visible metered round were nearly identical.
Maximum volume is what I could get out of each harp without risking serious damage. A better test might be to use metered air pressure… but hey I’m not that far gone.
And, I’m not Jason Ricci. It would not surprise me in the least if he conducted this test the Manji would be loudest. Or if you or another member would get different results, especially if a player is dedicated to one make or model. I am not. I like different models for their particular qualities. I carry two harmonicas in a holster every day and swap them for others once a week or month.
I had similar experiences with trumpet playing. It’s even more noticeable. Nothing plays loader or sweeter than my own horn, and playing a different one is profound. Players adapt to instruments and personal physiology and technique is largely responsible for the sound, tone, volume… That’s why we see so much variety in opinions and it ends up being a trial to find what each player likes. I love my Seydel Sessions, they play great but the hole/spacing is noticeably bigger than a Special 20 and they are thicker in the mouth, some players don’t like them because of that.
I don't know maybe a nearby member would be interested in a harmonica exchange for testing.
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It's about time I got around to this.
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