There's a discussion currently on the Main Forum at the moment along the lines of what size of amp you need.
I thought it would be useful to echo this over here, since the questions are often about which amp to buy. Boiling it down, the advice given is that for playing in a group you need a bigger amp than the competition i.e. the guitars.
Aspiring harp players are offered a range of (nearly identical?) small tube amps to buy, promising excellent vintage tone. Which is all fine unless you are then expecting to go out and play with other people, when the vintage tone may not be audible.
Us beginners and home practisers/players have different requirements than people who gig with a band. But it's worth knowing beforehand what's good for what situation.
Yes, MTG. I agree as I am still not sure which route to go. Lol. I LOVE my 5 watt amps. The tone you can get from them is amazing. But like you said, you get buried in the mix if you try to use one in a full band situation. But if you go with one of the bigger amps you can start to sacrifice that tone a bit ... unless you go with a real high dollar deal.
I brought this up in the MF, but ...
I have been noticing alot of player lately using those new quilter heads. But the are driving/voicing them with there 5 watt amps.
This seems like a GREAT idea to me. Take your 5 watt amp, (which you already own) and expand it by building a nice extension cab, and powering it with a high quality solid state head like the quilter.
or perhaps instead of building a HUGE 4x12 extension cab, you could just use the speaker in the 5 watt --> quilter --> power a nice single 12 cab or 2 x 10 cab, then line out to FOH. the 2 x 10 now powered by the higher wattage quilter would surely be louder than even a bassman.
Note: I have no experience in this area, so this is all speculation. It's really more of a question posed in the form of a statement .... lol. ----------
Now that my amp is showing up on videos I'm getting to hear it from different perspective. Leaving aside the merits or otherwise of my playing (but how can you, really? The player and the mic are really integral to the sound coming out the speaker!) and the limitations of the recording and playback equipment (also an impossible ask!) I have observed the amp is quite loud, distorts powerfully on double stops and is probably generally a bit looser in the bottom end than I'm necessarily happy about. I've recently installed a 5751 in V1 and I'm not sure I'm that happy with the difference although I probably do have a wider margin for error on the volume setting now. I think the bias is very cool and this is probably responsible for the loose bottom. So it's time to address that. I'm also considering use of a more modern mic with wider and more even response. I shudder somewhat at the thought of a 57 (arthritis in my hands, I find them hard to hold) but my friend has an ultimate 545 which I may be able to borrow.
I don't think the 5 watt champ-type amps have particularly 'better' inherent tonal qualities but maybe it's more difficult to mess them up. There a number of ways to ruin the sound of a big amp. My ear for what I like has changed along with my playing.
Anyway; A big speaker cab weighs a lot. 2 big speaker cabs weigh a lot and there are 2 of them. A big combo like my Deville weighs 23 kilograms. That's 50 lbs. It's one package. Venues don't always have close parking or available loading spaces (which seems odd when I think of it) and there are often multiple vehicles to load/unload. A hand truck/trolley is a good thing. One guitarist around town has a pro reverb he has cut down to a pair of speakers. I've thought about the possibility of cutting a 410 or 412 down to a pair of twin cabs. Or a twin combo plus extension twin cab if you like. I do think you need to be able to move a lot of air and speaker surface area is what's required. A small/low powered amp just can't drive all that speaker surface. Yep you can use a small amp and put it into a larger amp. That is what you do when you mic up to PA or run a line to the PA You can also play direct to PA or via pedals to PA This requires use of foldback to hear yourself. Direct to PA or lined out, is pretty much the same thing. A mic in front of the small amp is generally more feedback prone if you have the foldback in use. Not impossible but more prone. I often have my amp miked but I don't use foldback; I rely on the amp as my monitor. That's really why I want the big amp. My only problem with foldback is reliance on someone at a desk, or a desk which is not easily reached to adjust it. That's why I started using an amp on stage I have plugged 5 watt amps into 4x cabs. No, not a solution in itself. You need power. I have used 12 watt amps plugged into more speaker. Yes, it did help. My 12 watt Jet (12") fared better in s jam than my 12 watt Princeton Reverb (10") until I plugged the PR into a 12" cab. My Single ended 6L6 amp (10") absolutely sux next to the PR, until I plug it into a 12" cab and then it dominates the 10" PR. So speakers can make a significant difference but just not enough in the case of a 5 watt amp that is being overwhelmed by an unsubtle band which doesn't practice restraint. I have plugged my 5watt head (I'm sorry but I have to say what it is: a rebadged epiphone valve jr from which I removed the original circuit board and replaced it with a hand built eyelet board version of the circuit, modified to run a 6V6 power tube instead of original EL84. I later modified this to make a 6V6 version of Randall Landry's 'lone wolf' harp-modded valve jr.) into the 12" cab and it wont quite keep up at the jam, but through a twin 8" cab (weber 8A100 speakers) it does quite well, albeit with a distinctive character. The twin 8s seem to cut through better than the 12". The amp seems unable to drive the 12" with quite enough punch to deliver the low end and the high end is not as present. The 8"s don't have the low end potential of the 12" but the high end comes through 'undiluted' (so it seems to me). I'm sure if I had a more efficient 12" speaker my experience could be different.
I'm really sorry, this all seems too complicated to make sense or be of value to anyone.
I feel that I have some knowledge on the topic because I've been at it on and off over the last 6 years and in some really loud situations. I also know that my understanding of the topic has continued to change and expand over all that time and that process hasn't stopped. Each new band or new venue or bit of kit feeds into the picture of what I think I know, and the second hand experience of other players makes more sense as my own experience broadens. I think it's quite difficult to convey and assimilate this knowledge because there are so many variables. Experiment, listen, respect and don't rule things necessarily in or out until you try. Not every 'expert' knows what they're talking about, even if they have great skills in some area like amp building or harp playing or mic building. There are wide ranging ideas about what sounds 'good' so trust your ears but also consider the weight of opinion expressed by others. I really don't know what to think about the sound I'm getting now. I thought I was happy with it but the more I hear it the less I'm sure.
Well, from the recordings I'd be delighted to get your sound. I don't have any experience of the big amps. All I know is I need the volume so I've gone straight to the PA.
My point is simpler really, that the received wisdom is that a 5W amp gives the 'best harp tone' which may or may not be true (and you question it above). But either way it's immaterial if people can't hear it.
In the spirit of the beginners forum being a place where we can share 'things I wish I'd known', I wish I'd known that. I'd have probably tried a 5W amp anyway just to see what it was like, but wouldn't have wasted time trying to play it in a band.
Bee that was very helpful and informative thank you.
Jd taylor told me yesterday that he runs his memphis mini into his quilter. That's where that Idea cane from. I didn't just make it up ... lol.
Ok .. now bee, let me ask you this. If you were to build the perfect small gigging amp what would it consist of?
Here's the reason I ask. I'm having an amp built right now. Custom Cab, Custom Circuit. It's going to be a 10 & 8 Cab with weber 10-A125-0 and an 8" yet to be detirmined. 5f1 5c3 combination circuit.
Just wondering if this is going to end up being a really nice home amp ... lol
I meant to get across that I feel like I know enough now to say that I don't know much. That's what I was trying to say. I realise I just keep getting my eyes opened to things I didn't know and have to revise what I thought I knew. And I think that's ongoing. This is my 4th gigging band and they each seem to have different challenges.
I'm not sure what a combination 5f1 5c3 would be. Is it like a 5f1 preamp grafted onto a 5c3 power section? For 15 watts or so?
I have gigged with a 12 watt amp and would do so again if the band was right. An upright bass helps.
I think I'd like a boring old bassman. I know there are special amps for harp. I used an HG 50 a couple weeks ago. And there is a SJ avenger nearby. Ian Collard told me he messed with an SJ for a while and then one festival he was given a bassman to use and realised that was the best sound he'd had since before he got the SJ. When I saw him he was using a blues jr with some LW pedals (attack, tone+) and notbthatvthrilled about it. Sounded great nonetheless.
The guy with the HG 50 told me he would never sell his HG double trouble, but it just wasn't loud enough for his band. His is a twin 8". I think they are better with the 10"/8" combo. Same guy had a meteor mini, which he told me regrets selling. He said it was the best sounding amp he'd ever had but hard to get along with. He thinks now he understands more he'd find it more useful. I know where it is and he said he would be happy to buy it back...but current owner won't sell.
The guy who currently owns that mini meteor also has a HG DT and will not part with it. He swears by his Kalamazoo for small gigs though, and built a proluxe (40 watt) in blues junior chassis and cab which he says is his ultimate beast.
My friend with the ultimate 545 has a peavey classic 30. It's loud and crisp. I thought I didn't care for it when I had it here but actually with a band I think it has real merit,
Well yeah I can see that running s small amp you like into a big amp you can hear on stage does get around that problem of relying on foldback. I think you could probably get there with many big ss amps but the quilter by all accounts is good. I gotta walk my dog and get some groceries before the rain gets here. Ciao!
Nice Bee thanks. To the first section. Yes, i think we all feel that way. That why i say most of my statements are really questions in statement form. They are all there just waiting to be corrected. Because Althought i may feel they are right at the time ... next week .... not so much .. lol. It's all part of learning right?
Btw this amp (i believe) is just a champ tweed with a deluxe tone stack, I'm not really sure. Not my circuit. But i do know it's single ended. So wattage likely 7 watts at best. I really want to talk to him to see if we can't bump it up a notch without going push pull. (Push pull circuit is surely more $$) But i don't really know enough about the stuff.
But by what your saying .... even if i get it up slightly in watts ... i still may not like it ... or rather it still may not be enough juice for the average gig.
I Also gather by your post ( aswell as others statements) that this is all part of the journey. Seems like everyone has had most of the good amps out there, yet they keep searching. So ... i do know one thing .. this amp im getting will be a quality amp. So maybe it wont fit the bill everywhere .... i guess i should just be ok with having one base covered, huh? Lol.
Work out something else for louder/larger venues, should the time arise.
yeah i think you get a nice sounding amp, you know it sounds good and you find opportunities to use it. for me, with bands really the smallest useful amps are those 12 ish watt things with a 12" speaker. but those are really cool in the right band. i did one gig with my princeton reverb where the band asked me to join them in their closing set. they set my amp in front of the kit and i kinda slid up beside it and it was pretty cool. down in the mix no doubt but i was mainly accompanying and my playing sounds best like that, when i can find a hook and just groove on it. if they wanted me to solo, they had to back off to hear it prominently but we were mainly jamming.
i think its true though, you can get ideas from secondhand experience but really you have to get your hands dirty to make sense of it.
a tweed champ with a deluxe tone stack would be pretty cool. i have a tweed champ clone i built and its a cool little amp. then there is the 5f2 which is like a HG2...i mean the other way around, the HG 2 is based on the 5F2. thats a champ with the tweed princeton tone control...like a memphis mini kinda deal, just a treble cut. but the deluxe i believe would have a treble pot and a bass pot so you could dial it in a bit more. the 5F1 is a great little circuit, and with your 10" + 8" cab i reckon it will be a real nice thing. would be a neat guitar amp too.
and yeah, it is about covering the bases i reckon. i have so many amps because i got into building them but if i was sensible i'd have 2 in each category (small, medium, large). ive 6 small valve amps, 3 medium and 1 large. problem is that i like all the small amps. i actually like all of them. but i could use another 30 watt plus. i'm thinking a hotrod deluxe might be the cheapest. i can mod that basically the same way as i've modded the Deville. they are almost the same circuit. and the HR deluxe is maybe the most common large combo around. its just a shame they are built the way they are. i expect i could get one around $500 australian though and the cheapest bassman RI ive seen here is 3 times that. some big old silverface would be cool but they run up to 2500 for an old Pro Reverb or such
you can see the deville behind me here. its raised on a milk crate, which made it much easier to hear. i think you can get a sense of how close i am to it. the sound is not a great indication of sound in the room i feel. certainly not the sound on stage! but the videographer told me the sound was much bigger and she was surprised at the sound on the video. obviously the camera has a level limiter (she came along to take photos and the video was just a bonus, unplanned) Shake your hips
Yea that sounds great. I could only do a small clip because I have no wifi. I didn't know you had put so many new videos up. Ill have to get back to them for sure.
Well all this info you have shared really makes me feel better about the amp. I really didn't want to regret it afterward. I don't even play his yet, so this amp should do me just fine for a while. Then ill figure out which avenue to go for bigger sound when i get to that bridge.
Here's one similar to what i want to get done. This one was made for JD Taylor and has 2 6x9s in it.
What do you think?
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Nov 12, 2016 1:29 PM
Yeah wow that is JD playing it, right? I heard him demo a Memphis mini and sounded like this, but this has a bit more of an edge to it.. although I am listening through some semi-decent 'phones and I probably wasn't when I heard the MM demo. It's hard to hear past his terrific playing. That's some full on flutter he has got down. The amp certainly is not holding him back. That's that nice old school sound I like so much
Me likey , LSB . Until that exists my VHT Special 6 ( with tube changes ) handles everything I've thrown at it when playing small venues with my singer / guitarist buddy . At bigger venues with louder bands , I just mic it into their PA ( via a cheap STAGG knock-off of a 57.....like this mic I picked up on the evil place ).
Killa, you asked for "perfect" not inexpensive, lol. I guess if it were perfect it would also be free, lmao. But seriously, we all have budgets to work with, totally understandable.
Halffast, it does exist, or can if you have the coin. My amp has everything on the list except: It's a 1x10 not 2x10, and I can only have two impedance choices at a time, instead of 3. You can see it here: https://m.facebook.com/121710144553631/photos/a.1240166499374651.1073741940.121710144553631/1240174112707223/?type=3&source=54
I did forget one thing I'd add to my list: It would also have an additional input Jack for MP3, cd, etc, so you could run jam tracks and play along right in the amp. Ran out of room on my amp, but it can be done if starting from scratch.
Nothing wrong with the VHT and going through the pa. I have a Special 6 myself, but never use it for harp anymore since getting my first real harp amp some time ago. Even with tube and speaker changes it doesn't match the tone of something like a Harpgear or Megatone, but..... It's cheap, reliable, sounds pretty good, you can use any speaker impedance, and external cabs and it has hi/low power switching. Killer bang for the buck and an excellent starter amp for those on a budget. Could serve a great many people a good long time, possibly forever.
That said, it's much better as a guitar amp, of course, as that's what it was designed for. Sounds phenomenal for guitar with a 10" Eminence Red Fang Ceramic, but that's off topic.
Anyway, we are lucky in that we, as harp players, have a lot of good choices these days. Plenty of options to fit every budget and need. Wasn't always so easy.
i saw a FB thread with a bunch of australian players commenting on their amps. was interested to see Ian Collard is these days using a tweed super (clone). That's about a 30watt 2x10" combo if i'm correct.
those are the same amp as a tweed pro and tweed bandmaster, with the difference being speaker config (pro has a single 15", Bandmaster 3x10")
i single out Ian because i'm a fan of what he does and he plays in noisy pub environments as well as bigger stages.
interesting to see a range of players comment on what they use though. a few HG Double Trouble amps (no longer produced; they were 18watt twin combos), and a couple of SJ (super cruncher and Avenger), an HG 30. a fellow claimed complained his memphis mini was too clean. One of the guys whom i know has a big range of stuff including a couple 'harp amps' chimed in to mention his K'zoo as his best all-rounder. someone was unashamed to name their peavey classic 30 (and why not? i saw Aki used one at one of his dates on a recent tour).
Where did you hear that the Double Trouble is no longer being produced? Brian limited the covering to tweed several years ago, but the amps are still listed as being available on the Harpgear website.
Yeah I musta caught that one wrong, I thought it was no longer offered but I see it's still listed as current. Must have muddled it up with something else.
Just listening to Gruenling talk about large v small amps. I've heard him speak before about not being a fan of small amps. He says the bigger the amp, the more in control you can be of the sound; with small amps it's about the sound of the amplifier but with larger amps it's about your sound. He said this is why people like small amps, because it's easy to get a compressed overdriven sound, the same reason people like controlled magnetic mics. As an aside, he said never buy a mic from someone who claims it's a great mic, if they only used it with a small amp. Basically he is saying a small amp does not provide a good indication of a mic's potential, because a small amp is a one trick pony.
That is an interesting view. It does compound my view that small amps are for the home, and also it's nice to have one as it's easier for us hobbyists to make it sound good when we play. That seems like a good thing.
When you plug in a guitar, the basic sound isn't you - it's the instrument and the amp. Nice.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 21, 2016 8:23 AM
Sounds great, and I always love Ian Collards playing. But would you not say that the basic timbre is from the equipment in this case and that's what DG was talking about? He's doing all the good stuff, but there's no big variation in dynamics. I don't think that's a bad thing btw, it sounds lovely.
And as for volume the backing band are playing very tastefully. Look at the drummer's stick height and listen to those nice drum textures. And he's playing a little jazz kit. Gentle rhythm guitar and simple bass patterns played with the thumb.
My guess is that in your band he'd be actually inaudible.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 22, 2016 1:37 AM
I asked Ian if he was relying on foldback or the amp as monitor. At first he said 'foldback'. Later he changed his mind and said 'both', but it seems clear in the video he is favouring a foldback wedge to his left. I guess his 'both' comment indicates the amp was miked rather than 'lined out'. I'm not sure but I think it's a head with 12" cab. I can't see the amp in the video so can't imagine Ian could hear the cab. But I know Greg Baker also plays in that combo with a valve jr and he is a regular commentator on how drummers need to play with harp. I believe the drummer in mojo Webb's band is one of the few of which he approves. I suppose I'm thinking Ian is demonstrating very rich tonal control here, but yes overall there is a distinct flavour of the single ended amp character. Just pointing to the idea Denis' thoughts, while valid, are not the only valid approach. I've heard Denis talk about this with Gary Smith. Gary is fond of small amps and has many (of all sizes actually). And that a small amp can work with a full band, but it does require the planets to line up.
Ah ok, if it's mic'd then that's different anyway. I think he's a super drummer - that's the kind of thing I aspire to one day. And doesn't he look cool as a cucumber?
It's no disrespect to say that there isn't really rich tonal variation going on - it is THAT sound. The one that people buy a Memphis Mini and a vintage bullet and the like to get. And what a great sound it is.
I'm hammering the point maybe, but this being the beginner's forum I think it's useful to discuss what is going with the grain, or against the grain. It's clear that you can use a small amp on a loud stage with some technical fixes. But for those people buying that 5W they've seen demo'd on youtube - I think it's helpful to understand that it won't sound like that in the midst of a loud jam.
In particular, going to an open jam, you're not necessarily going to have the scope to do the technical things (micing the amp, getting a foldback wedge, getting a line-out to the PA etc.) because it may not be that environment. The few I've been to were much more rough and tumble, and horribly loud and I guarantee that a 5W amp would not be heard, probably at all. Let alone display the subtle tone I bought mine for.
...meanwhile the three guitarists are happily letting rip with 100+Watt amps, the bassist has some crazy wattage cabinet and the drummer is breaking sticks on the big rock kit. Isn't this likely to be people's first experience of an open jam ha ha :) ?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 22, 2016 2:55 AM
Mm, well the reason I posted this was that I was surprised at the tonal control Ian was demonstrating. But concerning the likelihood of being heard; on Sunday I took my 5f1 plus twin 8" cab to a jam with 3 guitars, bass and drums. Bass using 100watt valve head, 1 guitar in a deluxe Reverb, another in a hotrod deluxe. I was late and I should have known that would spell doom for the 5 watt. I could hear it no problem but it was down in the mix and the guys wanted me to turn up. I couldn't turn up but I put a mic in front of it and it was fine. Previous jam I took my epi with same cab and no problem. Just this time they found their levels without me and couldn't adjust. When the bass player left, I was fine. I even took the 57 and just played through PA for a while. 1847 jams with a champ. He does have a bassman on hand for backup though
Re tone control, you've got more experience than me so I may be wrong. I wonder what I'm comparing with - maybe someone like Ronnie Shellist in fact who often demonstrates a very wide range of tonal colours and dynamics. And that said, I've seen vids of him doing that with a little amp, so there you go!
I still keep coming back to the volume, and your story still does back up my main point - with the typical amp-power used by typical jam guitarists and bassists these days, a 5W amp may be ok but may need some help depending on circumstances. With a friendly group of people like it sounds you have, who actually WANT to hear your harp playing it can work out. Not all amateur musicians are as accommodating, I speak as I find.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 22, 2016 4:16 AM
I suppose what I mean is that I think the player is very evident through this. I've heard amps where the electronics dominate to the extent it could just be anyone, but this is clearly a player in charge of the instrument.
Yall have definitely given me alot to consider. I think I still am goin to have to figure alot of it out for myself. Because as you said .. many people get away with 5 watt amps. I'm hoping to push a bit above that. This new amp im getting should be closer to 10 or 15. But apparently theres not much difference in volume between the two. So, idk . Suppose I 'll figure it out the hard way like everyone else .... lol. But atleast I will be forewarned.
I think the 1847 way sounds pretty good. Have a good low watt amp, but always have the big boy for backup. lol.
Killa, I'm sure it will be great. You know what the issues are, so it's no problem. The issues can be sidestepped or overcome. E.g. if you want to play with a hard-rocking band, you may need more firepower and there's ways to do that. Or you may want to play with a quieter-styled band in which case it may be perfect.
I'm just going on and on about our mission to inform :)
It's so much easier for me as I've taken the decision to put easy volume ahead of 'ideal tone', but I'm not a very serious player so I can compromise on these things.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 22, 2016 4:58 AM
God damn captcha. GRRRR. that was a pretty long post ... and now its gone .... DAMNIT!
Anyhow the short of it was....
I appreciate what your trying to say mtg. I think alot of people dont know the limitations of their 5 watt amps. I sure didn't. I think it has alot to do with how these new "Harmonica Amps" are marketed. They lead you to believe that if you buy a 5watt amp and a good mic your set for life.
My ideal band would definitely be on the softer side of things. The sound I envision in my head is somewhere in the range of Jimmy Rogers - Ludella. Now I know I will never sound like Kim Wilson (in this lifetime) but that recording is on the money. Jimmy's guitar is not too loud, pinetop is right there in the mix, the drums arent overpowering. And they get kinda hype in a few of them tracks too. I know that was an ideal situation. Ideal room, pro recording guys. I was a sound tech for a few years, so i know how a crappy room can throw everything off. But still thats my idea of where i would like to go with live playing.
I think my taste comes from my childhood. My grandfather played drums in a jazz band. So when my mom went to work, I spent alot of time sitting in the far corner of the bar, in a booth, listening to jazz. Saxophone, guitar,bass, and drums.
I really dig the softer slow blues. Im not real big into the jump thing. Listening to my grandfather play I really dig when he would play with the brushes and the slow groove type feel. With the sax playing over it, long drug out soulful notes, etc.
Funny enough though, I really dont listen to alot of jazz. I cant stand the scales they use. When they start running on with their fast scale runs, it doesnt sound very musical to me. maybe its just me idk. But my gradfathers band didnt really play that way. It was more in the vain of Little Walter Actually. Like a blues with a jazz feel. Atleast thats how I remember it.
Anyhow ... Im rambling.
I ve read that the difference between a 5 watt amp and a 15 watt amp is only about +3 dB. This doesnt sound like it would make a ton of difference.
BTW that amp i posted of JD Taylor's. Its for sale for $350 O.B.O. if anyone is interested. The speakers and cab are worth more than that. I would snag it up if I had the extra dough, but im all tied up in this build right now. Just thought i would mention it.
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Nov 22, 2016 6:17 AM
Hi, I have bought into the 5w amp with A line out will cover everything school of thought. Modded a Peavy Valve king and am very happy with it at home. Don't really have any big gig experience.
I understand that volume and tone interact but I would understand better if they were addressed separately.
So if I'm happy with my 5w amp's tone and accept that that it will be compromised if I push the volume too much. Is the line out to the PA not the answer?
If we are saying that you get a different tone from a big amp I will understand. But volume is cited as the limit of little amps.
Think about it this way, we have 2 areas that we have to cover with regards to volume
1. The stage. We need to be able to hear ourselves, and the other band members need to be able to hear us, even though they may not want to, lol.
2. The house. The audience needs to be able to hear us in among the rest of the band.
The problem scenarios with a small amp and the line out solution:
A. The house has no pa and your amp isn't loud enough to be heard by the audience. You are screwed because, well, there is no pa.
You are also screwed because none of your band members have a dinky little 5 watt amp - the guitar player likely has a 50 watt+ amp, the bass player may be rocking 400 watts and they are going to turn up, because there is no pa. This means the drummer will be playing loud in order to keep up. So, not only will the audience not hear you, neither will you be able to hear yourself.
B. The house has a pa, but your amp isn't loud enough out front in the house.
"Ah! Now I can use my line out and rock the Casbah!!" Well yes! And no. Your line out to the pa will give the sound man the ability to allow you to be heard......or not. House sound operators are legendary for adjusting volumes to suit their tastes, not yours. When you go through the pa (and you have an underpowered amp) you give up all control of your house volume and you are at the mercy of the (often unfriendly) sound man, or woman. You'll realize this when you friends in the audience start pointing to their ears and shaking their heads "no" when you are playing. Or maybe you just need more practice, sometimes it's hard to tell.
That isn't necessarily your only problem though. If your band mates have louder amps (as the virtually always will when you have a 5w amp) you still are going to have the problem of of inadequate stage volume, and unless the pa includes stage monitors with you featured prominently in the mix, you aren't going to be able to hear yourself, and when you can't hear yourself, you can't play. Well you CAN play, but your isn't going to come out well.
When you have an amp with sufficient power, you can always at least control your stage volume so that you can hear yourself, and the rest of the band can hear you. This is where good music begins, or ends. A big amp can always be played at wherever stage volume (low or high) is required so the musicians interact effectively, and can be ring through the pa via line out or mic, for the best house volume. And finally, a powerful amp is the only solution available for both stage and house volume, when the house has no pa.
As for tone, line outs can sound very good or not so good, depending on the amp. The line out can never complely replicate the sound you hear in front of the amps speakers, because the cabinet and the speakers add a lot to the overall tone of an amp.
Last Edited by LSB on Nov 26, 2016 7:29 AM
Thanks LSB So as far as volume is concerned it is about having the power (watts) to keep control of your sound in a possibly non benign situation?
What about tone? I listen to some fantastic players who can afford/need big powerful amps. But that is a bit chicken and egg as the tone is arguably coming from them and the amp just provides the same tonal benefit as a little one but with more volume.
Been trying to understand this for some time but it's often hard to see through the smoke and showmanship.
A very clear and useful post LSB. The tone issue remains mysterious and subjective, but those practical things you mention - they are going to help people here who are wanting to start playing amplified.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 26, 2016 8:59 AM
MTG, the tone stuff isn't really mysterious, but it would take more time to get into than I have at the moment. I'll try to circle back around to it later.
Paul, yes, you need volume for hostile work environments, lol. Ideally we play with other like minded, tasteful, unselfish yet self disciplined musicians who play at volumes that make for a pleasing sound to all....... But that often doesn't happen. Guitar players are notorious for wanting to be louder than everyone else in the band. Drummers can be insensitive to how loud they are, or perhaps they are just trying to keep up with the guitar player. Either way, a low power amp leaves you with no options on stage.
Also, sometimes the room just eats your sound - the way some places are constructed it's like there's a sound vacuum in front of you amp - you turn to 8 and it sounds like you're on 3 or 4. The guitar player is definitely going to turn up, and again, your stuck.
Another issue is dynamics. With a low power amp you have to crank up just to be heard (on stage) now there is no option for playing louder because you're already maxed out, and you can't play more quietly and still be heard because your sound will simply drop below being audible. One of the things about a bigger amp is that you have access to a wider dynamic range. I don't just mean in the obvious sense in using the volume control also at a set volume.
Think about it this way: Imagine you are in stadium and you have a microphone connected to a several thousand watt PA system, you can whisper into the mic and it can be very soft/quiet to the audience, you can scream (without adjusting the volume) and it will be very loud. Now, connect the same mic to a 10 watt amp and whisper..... Even at full volume you're lucky if anyone hears you past the first row. Scream and you sound will come across as a whisper in the back of the stadium at best. In other words, an amp with more power inherently has a greater dynamic range both actively (turning the volume knob) and passively (at a set volume) than a lower power amp. The latter allows you to play with greater dynamics and extra headroom (without turning up the volume) than a low power amp, assuming you have the skill to execute those dynamics.
Finally, if you you are playing a low power amp maxed out just to keep up with the band, you can't turn up for your solo, you simply have to hope the band lowers their volume for your benefit. And good luck with that......
that is quite a good explanation of the issues. I don't disagree with any of it, except the implication that a big amp is the only solution. Even then, I don't really disagree, except to the extent that there are situations where a 5 watt amp, or s 15 watt amp can be completely adequate and somewhat more practical.
If one needs to generalise though, LSB has spelled it out well.
A lot of players have and do rely on PA, either plain, or with pedals or preamp or a small amp lined out or miked up. It's really common.
The best approach for any player depends on the situation. (Duh!)
For me, when I play with the current band I'm using a big amp. I'm happy with that. The first time we played out, I was approached by the venue manager and asked to turn down because I was drowning out the guitar. I just played a bit quieter. My amp was in a weird place. It's true that the audience might be hearing your amp more clearly than you can. A big amp has usually been the answer for me, but not always. Playing harmonica on a stage with a full band, in a bar or at a festival is only one situation, and not necessarily even the most common one. I've been playing in public for around 6 years. For much of the time, everything in LSB' post rings true. But there are also periods where that amp seemed so unecessary and unlikely that I even advertised it for sale. I actually did sell 2 other +30 watt amps and just kept the 410 because I thought I probably should keep one just in case. At the moment it's very handy but in the meantime, attending private jams, open mics, playing in ensembles with upright bass and kits limited to snare and ride, and bands aimed at playing nostalgic rock and roll at weddings with a drummer using brushes (and who cut his teeth in 60s London, and played on the American folk heritage tour with sbw2), my smaller amps were plenty. Even now, rehearsing with my band I tend to use the ampeg jet.
PA, can be easier to deal with and now. Software controls on mobile devices and wireless systems make it fairly practical for a band to mix themselves and manage foldback from the stage.
But in general, I agree. Especially with the description of the issues
Last Edited by SuperBee on Nov 26, 2016 4:22 PM
Actually we have just landed a gig at a venue with no PA. But we'll provide our own. And I just heard paddy scored a digital mixer to facilitate mixing from the stage. Looks as if this could be a steady gig too. They're talking about fortnightly Sunday afternoon/evenings through summer, at the beach. Better pay too. Including 'our' charge to use our PA.
I also don't think that a big amp is the only solution, but I LSB laid out the issue well (getting heard, hearing yourself, having control). I'm getting on fine with a small amp or pedals + our own PA. That's in part because of the band volume and the places we play.
The other aspect we've not touched on much is cost. I can tell you that a small amp + some reinforcement amp is a lot cheaper than a big, harp-specific tube amp. For what I do, I can't justify the cost and I suspect a lot of beginners may be in the same boat. One of the initial attractions of the harp for me was that it's supposed to be cheap and simple.
If a person wants to get started playing electric harp in a band setting they may need other options than the expensive big amp.
Also, there's the physicality of it. People may have bad backs. If they don't at first then they may well have after lugging round a Bassman for a bit. Yes you can have a trolley but there's always a bit where you've got to manhandle it up some stairs or into an awkward space then - twang.... I'm not successful enough yet to be able to hire a roadie - maybe next year.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Nov 26, 2016 11:55 PM
you know one thing nobody really mentions is the possibility of using a solid state amp.
Sure we all WANT tube amps, but if you can't be heard ... whats the point? And if you cant afford a Bassman you kinda S.O.L.
But you can get a Used 50W Fender Mustang for cheap. And if you can setup those onboard effects and amp models right .... it can really sound pretty decent. And cost less than a 5 watt tube amp.
I also want to experiment with driving a Solid State amp with a tube amp. I think if you used a nice clean one ( like maybe a keyboard monitor) You could get it to sound pretty decent. I know I'm repeating myself here a bit .... but.....
Yes indeed. They are cheap and light. Adam has said that he has a setup with his little tube amps plus an on-stage big clean amp (powered speaker or keyboard amp, I can't remember). It's another way to get a particular tone, plus volume - and although it's similar tube amp + PA, it's different because you have control not the sound man.
Not really. As far as i know. I think the problem is alot of them are used for a high gain metal sound. So along as you set them up right they are fine.
The fender mustang I had was pretty good, but i didn't really know what i was doing at the time ... so it had too many options for me at the time.
My vox da5 sounds pretty decent for a little ss amp.
But again, if you were voicing a solid state amp with your tube amp ... you don't have to worry about amp models and such. Just a clean amp to add power. Like a personal PA.
Sounds like a good idea to me. Ill have to give it a try.
I haven't had a lot to do with ss amps outside PAs and busking amps. Sometimes I see it written that n watts of a ss amp is not the same as the same number of watts stated power of a tube amp. Why is that? Is it because they are rated at the maximum power without distortion? And valve amps are often used beyond that point because they sound good as they go into that zone whereas ss amps have a reputation for sounding nasty when they distort (I mean when they distort due to saturation, not because of modelled distortion)? Or something else? My mate has a Vox vt50 he doesn't use anymore. I know at least one harp player who has one and claims to like it. It's over where I go to jam so I think I'll borrow it to try. Billy Branch is known to use a solid state amp I think. Or at least he did at some period in his long distinguished career. Some folks mention PA as ss amps, and of course that's true, these days. Back in the days often cited though, PAs were big clean tube amps. The bass player at my jam uses a fender PA 100 for his bass amp. Pretty effective unit. One of the members here has one in which he has modified the various channels in attempt to create a PA with harp channel and guitar channel and I think some other specific use for a real one size fits all amp
Re the watts vs volume of tube and SS amps: I don't know this definitively, but from reading around and asking the question, I do believe that what you said is the reason i.e. the ear can tolerate the softer distortion of the tube (before actual clipping), but not the harsher SS distortion. So the tube amp can be set to give more actual output watts.
Bear in mind we are talking about the actual raw power circuits, not SS amps that have softer distortion designed into the preamp (clipping diodes and filters in older amps, and digital models in the new ones).
There's lots of casual talk on the MF through the ages about the different harmonics (odd and even) produced by SS vs tube distortion and that is the reason why tube amps are always superior, 'obviously'. But this talk is not valid in reality - you wouldn't run an SS amp into that kind of distortion. It would be like playing into your Hi-Fi and pushing into distortion, indeed that sounds horrific. Instead they design in nice-sounding SS distortion. It's just that the classic, very simple, tube-amp designs give it for free. It was a happy accident, much like bending notes on the harp.
All those wonderful 60's guitarists had their tube amps but also used transistor-based distortion pedals e.g. Big Muff Pi and Fuzz Face. I guess the problem for harp players is that these are typically hi-gain devices and so not suitable. That is where the Lone Wolf Harp Break scores - it the same kind of nicely-designed transistor-based distortion but at the gain levels suitable for harp.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 03, 2016 11:59 PM
...so here's a prescription for you. Forget drooling over that expensive, heavy harp-modified tube amp and hugely expensive 'vintage' microphone (which was one of the cheapest on the market at the time of manufacture)
Instead get a Pyle-Pro PDMIC78 (or SM57 if you're flush), an mic impedance matching transformer, a LW Harp Break and a keyboard amp or powered speaker. And enjoy making music with enough volume range to practice at home AND in any band setting you find yourself.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 04, 2016 1:54 AM
Reading it back, that looks a bit cajoling. All I'm offering is a viable alternative to people, like me, who want to make music without going 'all-in' financially.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 04, 2016 1:53 AM
MTG, is that your set-up? If so, what powered speaker do you use? My tube amps are 5 and 15 watts and then there's my VOX mini5. They are all I expect I would ever really need, but want keeps rearing its ugly head. I like relatively clean sound, portability, and volume range. Powered speaker, suitable mic (I have the 57 already), and pedal seem to provide all that. Essentially, you're playing thru your own PA, right? ---------- Phil Pennington
