I'm new to this forum and the harmonica world.Before writing about my question i would like to mention that i have already searched for similar topics but i did not manage to find something "fresh" (by fresh i mean recent because based on what i've read on many sources companies tend to upgrade little details on their models).If there is something that i did not notice, please let me know. About my question... For a week i've been trying to get familiar with the harmonicas in order to make a good choice.I narrowed the harps down to three. These 3 are:
Suzuki Manji 57$ Hohner Special 20 39$ Seydel Session Steel 53$ *the prices include taxes and shipping charges to my country Greece
If it can help these are some examples of the music i plan on playing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLHNFo5bydw (that's where i found out about the site) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyPaEipaSkk
If i had to buy a harmonica NOW i would go with Manji but i really want to read what others have to say.As long it's not above 60$ i'm also open to different harmonicas. Taking into account all the parameters (cost/value ratio etc) which one would be the best for my needs? it's subjective but still, people with experience can give me some valuable tips. Before concluding it i think i have to mention that i'm a fan of durable instruments, tools, whatever.If i have to spend all i can give (60$) to buy something that will last long and serve me well i won't think twice.
Thanks in advance!! :)
Last Edited by Ginko on Oct 10, 2016 1:08 AM
All of the models you mention are good and can play well. There are differences though - some are objective and some subjective. My belief is that: in musical instrument terms, there's nothing to choose between them. It's all about the other things.
I would say that you can't go far wrong with a Special 20. As with all of them, you may need to tweak them to play as you want. And it's the cheapest!
One of the main objective differences is whether you want the traditional 'sandwich comb' type or the 'recessed type'. It's a comfort, feel and asethetics thing - only you can say. There's lots of other bits of detail too, like the shape of the covers, smoothness on the lips...
As for longevity, the steel reeds are supposed to more durable. But the others can be repaired. However, in four years of playing I've not broken a reed - despite actually trying to. So it may not even be an issue.
There's also subtilies of tuning schemes (temperament actually) which may or may not be an issue. If you like the blues stuff as in the first vid, then some people prefer one thing, if it's sweet melodies like the 2nd then they tend towards a different scheme.
Just to say that in the 2nd vid, that's not a 10-hole diatonic. Maybe it's a solo-tuned thing, which is a bit different to the three you list.
Hope that's some help - others can provide much more detailed info.
...oh I forgot an actual recommendation. Buy a Special 20, and look at Adam's video on tweaking the reed gaps :)
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 10, 2016 1:57 AM
The Special 20 is a popular choice and many professional players use them.
Further to MTG's point, you'll probably want to try a few different makes and models to get an idea of what you like best.
I particularly like the Suzuki Bluesmaster because it's got rounded corners, recessed reed plates and larger holes than other harps. They're good value too for $35-40 depending on where you buy.
I've broken plenty of reeds. These days I only break them when I play on loud stages.
Those harps all feel a bit different in hand and mouth, and you'll likely think one more comfortable than another. Don't fall too hard for that, because you really can adapt and also convince yourself you can't.
Acquiring harps can be something of a pill, because no matter what advice you receive, you don't really know until you try.
I echo MTGs advice about gapping. The brass reeds of Hohner harps are the easiest to adjust by far.
@ MindTheGap, Glass Harp Full, SuperBee thank you very much for the advices! I've found a bluesmaster available for 26$ and a harpmaster for 20$ Indeed, i've read that many times for Lee Oskar (and Seydel).It's just like you all said...unless you try you can't have a complete opinion. After reading what you had to say i decided to go with the SP20.But there are still some hours (13 to be exact) before i'll head to the shop so i'm still open to changes
Last Edited by Ginko on Oct 10, 2016 11:31 AM
Ginko. Welcome. You're in the right place on this Forum. I started with a Hohner Big River (which I wouldn't necissarily recommend as a beginner) then as I improved a purchased a Bluesmaster in key of C (BTW it's recommended to start with C) and then a Harpmaster in A. I still love them both. They are easy to learn on and along with the above you listed would serve you well.
I also have Hohner Secial 20's, a Suzuki Manji i had customized (I didn't like the feel of the sandwich construction and it was a bit leaky), and a Seydel Session Steel which I also love. All except the Manji have recessed reed plates, rounded corners and are comfortable to the mouth.
The Seydel harps have a slightly wider hole spacing but I find them quite easy to play.
The above points are all good. I can't speak to the longevity of the SP20, but the Suzuki reeds and the Seydel reeds have held up for over two years for me and I expect they will for many more.
You can't go wrong with any of the harps mentioned and, as a beginner, I don't think you'll notice a better value or sound from a $25 harp than you will from a $60 harp. Buy one in C the follow up in A with another make/model. Many of us find that our "favorite" harp changes with time and experience.
My conclusion: there are many harmonicas to choose from and although there are some guidelines the "which one?" question can be accurately answered only by the person that asked about it on the first place. I decided to purchase the special 20 by Hohner! And i did that because based on the comments, and other sources i've checked it's easy to handle and responsive! Thanks for helping me :)
I think that's the correct view. Don't forget the gapping though. There's no 'perfect' gapping that will suit everyone, it's a personal thing too.
BTW you've neatly passed one of the stages of harmonica madness: buying a sequence of different models, and convincing yourself that each latest one is superior. Then, after a bit, going back to the start. And round again.
...or have you...? :)
Wait 'til you start on microphones and amplifiers :)
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 11, 2016 8:03 AM
i don't even know how to blow correctly -working on it right now haha- or how the whole "harmonica chapter" will unfold (the early stages at least).Some may do that and it's ok but i wouldn't.If it goes as planned though i will definately buy other models. For now i want to learn and get the best out of my SP20 :)
Ginko First off welcome to the forum. And to the depraved addiction that is harmonica playing. lol.
Sorry I'm weighing in late here. But you made a good choice with the Special 20. The Manji and some other harps are a bit harder to play and I would say Probably not good for a beginner.
Lee Oskars are also in the same price range and good easy playing harps that last a LONG time. There are many others, but I would stick to plastic combed recessed harps for a while.
As far as Lessons for a beginner, try these names on youtube.
Funkyharp youtube channel. He has a lesson plan that covers all the bases. Very highly recommend.
Jon Gindick. He is excellent aswell. I actually still use one of the exercises I learned from him.
Mitch Granger has a few good lessons too.
other big names, that may be a bit more advanced.
Adam Gussow Ronnie Shellist Jason Ricci
I also recommend Adam Gussows Tradebit lessons. They can be bought on this site.
Search on this forum for a beginner thread. I posted a few great videos by these teachers for another member that could really help you out.
Not late at all :) The lesson recommendations are just what i needed! The first one i checked is Adam Gussow...very enjoyable videos but i could not get where i need to start from. Then i randomly found Mitch Granger's channel.The first lesson was simple and from yesterday i'm practicing on the first two exercises. It goes without saying that i will check your post!
yea adams videos dont really have a beginning. They are more just random tips. But they arent really that helpful to a complete Raw beginner. Start on them after you get the ball rolling.
I will try to find that thread for you.
Also, if you dont mind paying, click on *The Store* link on the right above. These are Adams tradebit lessons. I still cant get through improving with useing a handful of the licks I learned there. Lol. Priceless, i assure you.
Again FunkyHarp Channel is great. Luk Clebsh is his name. althought i likely spelled it wrong. But his lessons start from 1 and progress in order. I found them invaluable when first learning.
Wade through this thread. All the good videos are posted at the bottom. ( if you just want to get to the point. lol )
Wow, everyone here is really helpful.It was busy yesterday and i did not have the time to check the forum.
For now i'm trying to mix Mitch Granger's lessons (he does not seem too concerned to update them though) with the ones of Lucas Clebsch.The exercises i'm doing are the "-attica and exhale" for as long as i can go in order to increase my lung capacity.The tip i followed from Lucas is to play kid's songs in order to learn how to play clear notes.I found it more interesting compared to the random "inhale/exhale" until i get the feel of it.
As for the lessons i've already checked them and i'm positive! The thing i want to make sure of at first though is to feel a bit more comfortable with the basic drills i'm doing.I know there are lessons available from point 0, but as far as i know there are tons of videos available that can give you the first small "push".But after a point there are no available choices for the extra something.What i'm aiming for is the advanced beginner's lesson!
I will add Gindick's melodies to my "clear note" drills.Variety always makes things more interesting!
Here are Adams tradebit lessons. These are on another level from the youtube vids. Scroll through these until you find something that interests you. They cost money, but they are WELL worth it. Take full advantage of the "Preview" option. That allows you to download a free preview of the lesson and hear the tune you will be learning. That way you know what your buying and don't buy something that you don't like. Adam walks step by step through each tune and in some of them shows variations on how to play it "jazzed up" so once you get the basic version you can add a little flair to it.
The beginner ones start out slow, but then they really pick up speed towards the advanced begginer to Intermediate lessons. Only you can guage the best place for you to start.
Hope this is more like what you have been looking for.
Sorry for the late reply, I really should come here more regularly...
I just wanted to add my recommendation...for your next harmonica, perhaps? ;)
Like yourself, I also bought a Special 20 when I first made the decision to get a 'proper' harmonica, and went through quite a few harmonicas since then (nearly 2 years now). Comfort was a big thing for me, but it was only recently that I tried a Suzuki Bluesmaster and I was like "Where have you been all my life?" and it's the one I carry everywhere with me. It's practical and very durable too.
I think some models have a better reputation online simply because they've been around a lot longer, so it's easier to find more reviews and recordings of them.
Recently, I have been making simple sound test recordings of some of my harmonicas, the idea being they might be usful for people like yourself who need help choosing. As a fellow beginner, you'll be able to get a feel for how you might sound with those harps.
It's a work in progress, I have only made a handful of recordings so far. The hope is that, in time, more people contribute and collectively we will catalogue every major harmonica there is!
With all due respect Harmless,imo, there are far more variables to choosing the "best harp for you" than just the sound.
Infact if you tune ask the models to the sand tuning its very hard to tell any difference. So if you like one tuning over another you could tune any model to sound like it.
My biggest points in choosing a harp model I like mostly all boil down to comfort.
The reeds have to be responsive and feel good to play.
I prefer a thicker harp. So i really don't play special 20s or 1896s much because they are very thin.
Comfort of the comb, covers, and plates in your hands and mouth as you play them.
Hole spacing.
Durability. I like a harp that doesnt feel like a toy.
And so on.... you get the point.
All im trying to say is that there are MANY reasons why someone may like or dislike a harp.
I also have found that as my playing changes my preferences change as to what i like in a harp. Even how i like a harp setup.
Perhaps just the sound of each type of tuning might be beneficial. ----------
I'm so happy to be settled in my harp of choice. I don't even think about the issue on my own behalf. But there was a time I just didn't know and it seemed an important decision. Forgetting all the types I tried and didn't select, and the various reasons for that, I will mention how I ended up with what I have. You know, when new models of harp are produced of course people try and review. For me the first big wave of that I caught was the crossover. I really wanted to try but so expensive. I couldn't bring myself to pay $95 when I could see just over $60 in USA. But postage meant by the time I imported one I saved nothing. Eventually I saved up and ordered 4 crossover from USA. The money I saved meant I could also get a LowF thunderbird and still be ahead of buying 4 crossover locally.
Maybe because I made the big purchase I was determined to like them. I did like them. When I broke one I was upset because I couldn't buy a new one. I got it repaired but that was a hassle. When I broke it again, and then broke another I decided I better learn to mend them. So instead of buying new harps I bought tools.
When I started repairing I soon realised there was not much difference with crossover and marine band 1896 and that is when I committed to just those types. When I started repairing for others I got well acquainted with sp20 and learned I actually found them so similar to marine band that the difference didn't matter. Now I'm all set up to repair and tune, loads of spare reeds and other parts. I know their quirks, how to set them up the way I like. It's so personal I think. I've told the story before but when I was skyping/hangout ing with Jimi Lee I became curious about his excellent tone and wondered if it was the 1847. Well yeah it is, but then again not really. They do have a distinctive sound but most of what I was hearing was an excellent player. He could play any harp and sound excellent. I only ever bought 1 1847 but I've played dozens. They don't make me sound 'better', just a little different. Anyway, trying not to rant 'too much'. Failing a bit. You know, I used to have some Huang Silvertone Deluxe harps which were pretty good. I'd probably still be playing those if they didn't change them. I learned draw bending on those.
Harmlessonica, that's a great idea and I had a look. I like that you have included other info like being 'tache friendly!
This being the beginners forum I do have to echo and amplify Killa's point. They all sound the same.
Ok, an oversimplification! But whereas two guitars or pianos can sound quite different, it's not the case with the diatonic harp. When I was going through the process of trying different models, I was really surprised about how different they FELT to play, but how similar the SOUND was!
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 20, 2016 11:30 PM
I didn't mean to imply that the only reason someone might choose a harmonica is purely the sound. That's why I mentioned the comfort and durability of the Bluesmaster.
Perhaps the title of the project is misleading, but the intention for what I started was hopefully to become a resource for reviews and opinions on various harmonicas. Unfortunately for myself, I don't have as much time as I'd like to write/record in-depth reviews on each harmonica I own, and as yet, no one else has contributed.
In my opinion, there is a difference in tone and timbre for different models (I notice this especially when playing one after the other) - though perhaps this doesn't come across too well without adequate recording quality.
I also thought it might be a good idea because when I started learning, the concensus was (is) to get a C key, but I always found it too shrill. Not being able to spend a lot of money buying intermediate key harps, I then went to the extreme and got a Low Low F, but my decision at that time was perhaps rash (I wouldn't recommend low tuned harps for beginners). So it occurred to me that if such a resource was available when I was looking for my first or second harp, it'd give me a good idea of the pitch.
Harmlessonica - I hate to write something that sounds -ve about your project, I think it's a great idea. Especially if you can get contributions from others.
All I'm saying is that the most common question/source of confusion for absolute beginners seems to be around harp models, and the notion that perhaps a different model will give a radically different sound.
I agree that there are tone and timbre differences, but on MF you hear expressions like 'night and day', and honestly it isn't like that. If people have strong preferences that's totally fine - but for people starting out there's the danger of chasing shadows. In contrast, if you put flat wound strings on your guitar (or even just new strings for that matter) anyone can hear the difference.
It's also the case that the difference cover shapes and vented/non-vented covers lead to differences to what the player hears - but much less so to what the audience hears.
Difference temperaments I agree make a clear audible difference if you're playing chords. But IMO if you are mostly playing single notes, it's much less important because the pitch of a harmonica note is such a moveable feast. But, it's a real thing and a good reason for choosing one model over another.
People get very into temperaments. But I remember heading one of the many demos on the MF, sounded great. I tried playing along and found that every note was about 1/2 semitone flat! Not much point in getting hung up about 7-limit vs 19-limit Just Intonation if you are going to do that :) He sounded great though.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 21, 2016 2:23 AM
MTG this is partly my point - by playing various harmonicas in a neutral, acoustic way (as best as my limited skills allow), people will be able to make up their own minds instead of relying on someone else's written opinion.
If that means they come to the conclusion that there is little to no difference between various models, then my project has served its purpose.
(By the way, I'm assuming that MF stands for 'main forum' and that you're not cussing me... ;) )
Im sorry if i came off like i was downing your efforts. That wasn't my intention. Merely that there's much more to a persons eventual decision on a harp model.
I can definitely hear the difference in every harp i play. And it is a major difference. But unfortunately i feel this difference is only to the player. It doesnt really translate through recording i don't think.
The way the reeds sound (1847 is mellow, marine band is raspy) The way the harp vibrates. And on and on are all things that make the PLAYING experience different from harp to harp, but not so much the listening experience.
Perhaps you could make up ratings for many different points, so that harps could be compared. If a player has a special 20 and likes certain characteristics about it, but not others, he/she could find a harp that has those characteristics in common, but that changes the others to their liking.
Like thickness, hole size in the comb, reed sound raspy/mellow, Vented or Non Vented Covers, Stache friendly is a good one btw, etc.
You could also have users rate them and compare them. But everything is SO subjective that it's really hard to get a solid basis.
Anyhow i applaud your efforts is a great start. Perhaps it should just have more fields for each harp. I realise that would be extremely time consuming though.
"If that means they come to the conclusion that there is little to no difference between various models, then my project has served its purpose."
Yes, good point in your last post. ----------
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Oct 21, 2016 5:00 AM
First things first, like others mentioned Harmlessonica's idea is practical and even if it won't lead novice players like me to "that's the one i will buy" it's something that will greatly help to form an opinion! I can't listen to them now because i'm a hurry (training :p) but i definately will a couple hours later!
I'm going to come back later with my extended reply..see ya!
From my point of view an addiction would be -for now- more or less useless.I want first to learn some fundementals.Like for example how do you choose the keys, info about the notes.Many things are still unclear so i don't want to rush for no reason. The SP20 is a decent harp and you can learn with it.That's all i need.
That does not mean i'm not window shopping.. I love wood so i could not help but get charmed by the Pure Harp The emergency plan (in case something happens to the SP20) is to buy a Bluesmaster from the local store.Being available for 26$ makes it both a good bargain and a safe choice.
Until now the only negative of the SP20 is that the plate coating started coming off pretty early
Last Edited by Ginko on Oct 25, 2016 11:41 AM
Hi Ginko, I hope your harmonica journey is going well and that you have a first harp that you are happy with.
There are plenty of good comments in this thread but I’d like to point out something that “Mind The Gap” touched on.
I watched both of the youtube videos that you aspire to. They are two distinctly different styles that use two different types of harmonicas.
The first musician, Adam is playing a traditional blues harmonica. It has 10 holes and uses Richter tuning. All of the harmonicas on your list, and other ones mentioned above, commonly fall into that category. That’s what this forum is generally aimed at “blues”.
The second musician is playing a much longer harmonica. It probably has no less than 14 holes. More importantly the harmonica is tuned for playing melodies not the blues.
Even though each of these harmonicas may be capable of crossing into either style they are starkly designed for different purposes.
With your goal of these two different styles in mind I recommend Seydel because that maker has the widest selection of special tunings by far. For example, the Seydel Session can be ordered as a blues (Richter) harmonica or as a melody (Melody King) harmonica. It’s a fine harmonica.
You are probably aware of the chromatic harmonica. That is another avenue http://www.slidemeister.com/forums/
You may decide to stick with one type of harmonica or you may want to focus on one type of harmonica tuning at a time. Many members here play multiple tunings and various types of harmonicas. But I think everyone here plays some blues cus it’s the bomb!
Have fun, Dave ---------- It's about time I got around to this.
About a week ago i had to clean and tune it (thanks Adam!) because some reeds completely stuck. I'm totally sure that i get the harp a bit more wet than normal so technically it's my fault but still i did not expect it to be that wet.The inside part of the cover plates was wet, same with the reed plates (not that much though).What i meant earlier was something like these: http://archive.harmonicasessions.com/apr09/Pollard_clip_image021.jpg http://archive.harmonicasessions.com/jun04/7HarpBench---Align-reed-wit.jpg
They're not that bad though.As far as i can remember it has a stain similar to the ones of the 2nd photo around the 3 or 4 blow and a few stains like the ones of the first here and there.
@Dave, i'm definately happy with the sound! As for the differences, you're right.I was looking for a versatile piece and that was the reason. What i found out later though is that i could play melodic songs with satisfying results
https://www.harptabs.com/song.php?ID=23905 https://www.harptabs.com/song.php?ID=23928 (these are tabs of such songs). Until now i did not manage to play many bluesy melodies because i'm focusing on clear notes, and i won't go on until i feel that i'm good at it. What i'm trying to do is add some more fast paced melodies to challenge myself and avoid boredom. Given that the SP20 has a dirty and raspy sound i'm really anxious to learn how to bend and get familiar with bluesy melodies.Because to be honest the "wah wahs" and bent notes are what got me into it.
Chromatic harmonicas are a "wow factor" but out of my reach no matter how you see it.I have different goals, for now.
Ginko First off that "coating wearing off" is just tarnish. It's fine. all harps will do this. Brass a little more so, but they all do it.
Secondly, if you want to learn to play faster. This is a good exercise that I found very useful. I still do it from time to time. It will help you play faster and you can easily track your progress. Even if you only practice it once in a while. You will notice being able to do it better as time goes on. Just, dont rush it. The point is "How fast can you CLEARLY play it."
Hand Wahs The secret is in the CUP. You need to learn how to cup tightly around the harp. Practice trying to "MUTE" the harp. Thats how I learned. Playing at night while everyone was sleeping I learned how to cup the harp the right way to keep as much noise suppressed as possible. this is exactly what you do when using a HEAVY Hand Wah.
Bending
There are tons of different methods for on youtube. You basically have to try them all until something clicks.
Sorry I ve gone way off topic here, but here is the Gindick video. Good speed exercise.
