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beginner forum: for novice and developing blues harp players >
Some harps hard to play?
Some harps hard to play?
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curlycatvaughan
2 posts
Sep 15, 2016
9:49 AM
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Hi all! This is my first post other than the one in the "introduce yourself" thread. I'm an advanced beginner-to-intermediate player and haven't been at it for very long, so apologies if this is an uninformed question.
I started out on a Hohner Bluesband C (another website recommended it) and a Blue Steel D (the first one I ever bought, before I knew anything about this stuff). Starting out, the Bluesband was harder to play than the Blue Steel, not just because it was a lower key, but because it was very poor quality. So once I decided I wanted to really pursue this, I upgraded to a Special 20 C. I've been practicing primarily on that one for the last couple of months. I don't have a Sp20 in other keys because money IS an object, but I'll be adding to my collection.
Last night I decided I wanted to try to learn Born in Chicago, so I pulled my Blue Steel D back out. Now that I'm used to the Sp20, I found the other one very hard to play. My sound was thinner and airier and I had to pull a lot harder to get the notes. It got a little better as I played, but I'm still having to put a lot more force into it than I do on my Sp20. I can still bend on it but not as easily as the Hohner. Is that normal--are some harmonicas just tougher to get nice sounds out of, or does this mean my technique needs work (I mean, of course it does, because I am an adv beginner/intermediate, but you know what I mean).
I have been wanting to try a Marine Band because I love the sound, but now I'm wondering if it too will be tougher to play on compared to the Sp20. I've heard talk of them being less airtight. I hesitate to buy one because of the price--if I don't like it, I'm stuck with it--and I just don't know what to expect.
Thanks for helping me think through this!
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MindTheGap
1757 posts
Sep 15, 2016
9:59 AM
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Welcome.
This is a very good question and the road I guess we've all travelled when starting out. Before everyone gives you loads of fine detail (and it's valid) I'm going to give you the simple truth, well my simple truth.
In a nutshell: The road to happiness is buy SP20s or Marine Bands, or similar quality harps, and learn how to adjust the gaps.
The reason is that the very cheap harps are not very good to learn on. When you get to the mid-range harps like SP20, Lee Oskar, Harpmaster, they are all about the same, good, quality. But be aware that you may need to set the gaps to make them play well, evenly across the range, and suit your style and breath force. The only problem with the Marine Band is that it's nailed together, so more awkward to take apart and adjust.
Then you can pay a lot more for custom harps, which are usually based on these mid-range models, but tweaked for best response, or particular things you want to do.
People have very strong feelings for one model/brand another for all kinds of reasons. For anyone listening who's not a harp geek they all sound the same (oh yes they do).
If you want actual advice: stick with the SP20s, they are great when tweaked. And if you want you can send them away to be customised and supercharged. But no one sticks with one model, we all hunt around trying out different harps, looking for some magic ingredient. So enjoy that.
Keep your Bluesband and use it to practice maintenance and gapping. They can be improved but never as good as the proper mid-range harps.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Sep 15, 2016 10:13 AM
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curlycatvaughan
3 posts
Sep 15, 2016
1:36 PM
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That is so very helpful; thank you!
I've kept the Bluesband around for just that purpose--I don't want to take apart a more expensive harp and potentially ruin it, so once I have some time to start customizing, I'll start there, and it won't matter if I mess it up.
It might be time for me to start reading up on harp surgery! When you say "set the gaps," what exactly does that mean? Are we talking about altering the size of the holes, or do you mean the gaps in the cover plates?
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MindTheGap
1758 posts
Sep 15, 2016
2:59 PM
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Re gapping, I'll leave that to the others to explain, as they have greater skills there. But it's how each reed lies in its slot. At rest, there's a little gap between the tip of the reed and the reed plate. You can easily change the responsiveness of the note by bending the reeds slightly to close or open that gap.
If you find the reeds choke when you play, you might need a slightly bigger gap. If you find you need too much air to get the note started, you might need a smaller gap. You can also influence how the bends feel by changing gaps.
Quite often, even quality harps like the SP20 come with uneven gaps, or not the ones you'd like. You'd be forgiven for concluding you'd got a 'bad harp' but it's not like that at all.
It's surprisingly easy to adjust them. Adam has a video on it. All you need are toothpicks, slips of paper, things like that. Once you've done one, you complete the tasks in minutes.
Be aware that there is a whole world of adjustments people make, many of which do require a lot of skill and some special kit. Gapping is the simplest and gives immediate benefits. IMO there is little point on spending money on ever better/expensive models if you ignore gapping.
The point to make, relevant to your OP, is that you can't simply spend more on stock harp to avoid this issue. You can however buy a custom harp where someone has done this for you.
Over to the more skilled folks...
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Sep 15, 2016 3:06 PM
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ME.HarpDoc
191 posts
Sep 15, 2016
5:12 PM
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MTG has explained it very well. I had not heard of a Blue Steel harmonica before (I've only been playing a couple years myself) so I looked it up. I found one made by Hering for about $6. I tried a Marine Band once but couldn't adjust to the wood combs and the sharp reed plates. Besides the use of nails that MTG mentioned, wood combs can swell with moisture and as a new player, you'll probably develop a lot of moisture. The SP20 tuning is based on the Marine Band but has plastic comb and rounded corners.
If you like the feel of the Blue feel combs and covers (they appear to have recessed reed plates) you may want to consider a Suzuki Harpmaster or Bluesmaster. You can often find them a little less expensive than SP20s and I find they sound great and bending notes is fairly easy. Most of them play pretty well OOTB (out of the box) but as MTG said, gapping them yourself usually improves their play and not as much air leaks around the comb as with the Bluesband (or sometimes even the Marine Band)making them easier to play.
You can find good deals on Amazon but a lot of folks on this forum will tell you their favorite supplier is Rockin Ron's. He'll always treat you right and help you with any questions you might have. www.rockinronsmusicsd.com.
I've played Honers, Suzukis and Seydels in the $35-60 range and they all play well.(I haven't tried Lee Oskar. Folks either love 'em or hate 'em) Now is the time to try different brands and models to see what you like and that'll probably change over time.
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Rontana
350 posts
Sep 15, 2016
6:18 PM
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Something that will make a huge difference - in terms of making the harp airtight and thus more responsive - is flat-sanding the draw reed plate. Very simple and quick.
Andrew Zajac has Youtube videos and a written explanation on his site. As I said, it's a simple tweak (along with gapping)that provides fantastic results
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SuperBee
4114 posts
Sep 15, 2016
7:28 PM
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Agree that gaps are the first place to look.
A number of you tube instructions will show how to do it.
Agree with mtg that you need to know how to do this regardless of the harp model you choose.
Be aware that steel-reed harps are more resistant to change so take a bit more persistent effort to adjust.
Also, setting gaps requires you to consider both the reeds in the slot (blow and draw). If one is set too high, the other will not respond well.
I can't recommend any harp better than a sp20 for a person to learn on. I consider it ideal for the purpose.
Gapping is not the whole story by any means but as mtg said, best place to start and likely best return on investment.
Probably worth mentioning (to give a sense of scale) that small adjustments on .002" or less can make big difference. Consider the thickness of the reed material as the kind of incremental zone to work in when making adjustments.
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Killa_Hertz
1750 posts
Sep 16, 2016
4:30 AM
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I think MTG pretty well Covered the bases. I mean you could talk indepth for days about different modifications people make and the pros cons of them.
But If you just start with a little gapping thats really all you NEED.
I know you said money is an issue, but I highly recommend Richard Sleighs Hot Rod Your Harmonica Video
You can check it out here: http://hotrodharmonicas.com/store/
I think it is the absolute best resource for people such as yourself who haven't learned about all this stuff yet. To find all this info out on your own can take ALOT of time. Digging around on youtube and such, asking people for advice. It's ALL right in this video.
Not that I'm trying to say I mind helping you. It's just that there is a ton of information on the subject and this will quickly get you up to speed. It has very good camera angles to show you every little detail in what adjustments are being made. Aswell as very good advice for Tuning and things of that nature.
As far as the Marine Band, I would avoid the marine band for a little while. Heres why, The wood combs are Tough on the lips. And until your lips really toughen up you will not like to play it very much. So if you only had two harps, the special20 and the marine band .... you would still likely only play the marine band.
The special 20 is very good, but as said above, we all like to search around for different brands and models. But ultimately most models in the same price range are good. The special 20 is a fine harp.
Anyhow I'm just saying whats already been said. So ....
But heres a good source of FREE information.
Andrew Zajacs Blog. Skim through it until you find things on Gaps,. airtightness, ect. I started you on a page that has a good overview on "5 Things to make your harp play better"
http://hotrodharmonicas.com/store/
Oh one more thing. Practicing gapping on the bluesband will be good to get an idea of what your doing, BUT the adjustments wont really make the harp play great. So functionally that harp will always kind of stink. ( It was my first one too. Still Have it. lol )
Good Luck Man.
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Fil
182 posts
Sep 16, 2016
8:32 AM
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I concur with the SP20 advice and some basic gapping competence. I'm lucky, as in dumb luck, in that I started out with SP20s. Gapping came later than it should have, as in stubbornness. I also went thru an early phase of spending more money than I had on new harp stuff when I should have spent more time on harp skills. Ran short of and figured out I was wasting that kind of discretionary money, but have continued investing the time. Do that and you will be much better at assessing the harp choices in front of you when you think you've 'outgrown' theSP20. A lot of quality players stick with them.
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Phil Pennington
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curlycatvaughan
4 posts
Sep 16, 2016
10:09 AM
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Thanks for the comments and links, everyone! I'm getting excited about learning about modifications. The "innards" of harmonicas is what made me interested in the instrument in the first place. I had always enjoyed the music, but last spring, I went to Clarksdale and stumbled upon Deak Harp's shop. He talked to me for at least an hour about how harmonicas work and what's inside, and about how they are played, and I was FASCINATED. I bought my first harp, the Blue Steel I mentioned, from Deak that day. Now that I've got my "step-up" harp, I'm going to deconstruct the other one. This is going to be fun!
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"Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run, there's still time to change the road you're on." --Led Zeppelin
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curlycatvaughan
5 posts
Sep 16, 2016
11:39 AM
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@Killa_Hertz, you said:
"As far as the Marine Band, I would avoid the marine band for a little while. Heres why, The wood combs are Tough on the lips. And until your lips really toughen up you will not like to play it very much. So if you only had two harps, the special20 and the marine band .... you would still likely only play the marine band."
I've heard this before about the MBs being "tough on the lips" or "tearing up your lips." I've been wondering what that means, exactly. Do they cut you, or is it just that the material is harder?
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"Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run, there's still time to change the road you're on." --Led Zeppelin
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SuperBee
4117 posts
Sep 16, 2016
2:38 PM
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They have never done that to me. I dunno why people say that but it must be true fo them
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MindTheGap
1759 posts
Sep 17, 2016
12:43 AM
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What they mean is specifically that the wooden comb absorbs moisture and swells, with tines of the comb protruding past the reed plates. The grainy wood is sharp on your lips.
People do things like bevelling the edges of the tines and sealing the comb with varnish of some kind. This is the kind of thing you CAN pay more to fix - like buying a custom comb, or buying the more expensive models which have different comb materials, sealed against moisture and smooth edges.
A lot of the preferences people express for different models is about playing comfort. And of course that really is subjective.
The big either/or choice is about the sandwich-type harp (like the Marine Band) or the recessed-type like the SP20.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Sep 17, 2016 12:45 AM
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SuperBee
4119 posts
Sep 17, 2016
2:14 AM
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the marine band combs used to swell but ive not had that experience with the current comb. its essentially the deluxe comb without the chamfered tines.
i used to wonder if that was why tongue blocking became so popular. whenever i switch back to using that inner part of my lower lip to block (the so called "lip block") i find it gets uncomfortable, but with just about any harp.
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MindTheGap
1760 posts
Sep 17, 2016
2:43 AM
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That's interesting. Is it a different wood now? I'm only going off what I read anyway, and the alleged swelling was one of the reasons I didn't by MBs in the first place. That and the nails.
There's lots of other reasons to find them attractive (to me): the heritage, simplicity and price.
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curlycatvaughan
6 posts
Sep 17, 2016
9:45 AM
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I read something recently about the MBs made since 2011 being sealed OOTB. If that was the problem with them hurting people, I might try one sooner rather than later.
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"Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run, there's still time to change the road you're on." --Led Zeppelin
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SuperBee
4120 posts
Sep 17, 2016
7:14 PM
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Certainly a swollen comb would make the harp uncomfortable to play if you were relying on using your lips around the comb to seal off the chambers.
I had/have some pre-2011 marine bands and they were inclined to swell if you played a lot and 'wet'
I think the sealing is what changed. The current mb1896 comb seems to be the same as the mb deluxe, but the tines are still squared off and the harps are held together with pins.
The pins are a pill when it comes to maintenance. But committed mb1896 players find ways to cope.
I'm sure it's not a good idea to soak any harp with a wooden comb but they seem to be reasonably moisture resistant in normal use.
I thought people complained about the sharp edges of the reedplates in these sandwich-type harps. If that's a problem, you can sand the edges for a bit more comfort.
With the 'gussow pucker' I never seemed to notice a problem, nor with tongue blocking (which I've been doing for 6 years now, so my memories of lipping may be unreliable)
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MindTheGap
1761 posts
Sep 18, 2016
8:20 AM
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That's useful info. For me, on balance the nails and having to do modify and sand it outweigh the nice idea of having the classic harp model. For people who like the thing of making the harps their own with little mods, I can definitely see the attraction.
Just my take, but I consider gapping to be an adjustment akin to choosing and fitting your strings, then setting the intonation on your guitar - something the end-user is supposed to do. And they can't really do at the factory because they don't know what gauge of strings you like. There was even a hohner article they sent out as part of their 'Reedology' series...
https://reedology.com/2015/01/26/how-to-adjust-your-harmonica-reeds-to-your-personal-playing-style/
Whereas all the other stuff is more like changing the pickups or putting on better machine heads. Enjoyable I'm sure.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Sep 18, 2016 8:22 AM
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SuperBee
4123 posts
Sep 18, 2016
1:42 PM
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Reasonable analogy. I was in 'the shed' yesterday while Mark Gilbert (luthier) was there with a couple of his recent creations. I'm not sure whether I've pointed to mark's website before? Beautiful guitars built with local timber, Huon pine perhaps, certainly celery top, Blackwood, sassafras.
At one point I took out a Richard Sleigh custom harp and I observed to Mark how harp customisation resulted in a more playable instrument, but unlike his guitars there was nothing to look at. He made some (facetious) suggestions, mainly about making it bigger and adding superficial features.
Popping the covers off a marine band is actually easier than any other harp I know. But access to the blow reeds is not so easy if you need to get the Reedplate off. When they need a new reed, I usually convert them to screw fasteners at that time.
Sanding the edge of a Reedplate canbe easily done with the harp still assembled and is something you may want to do with any 'sandwich' type if you find it makes your lip sore. You may want to take the covers off while you do it.
In my experience there are other types (I.e. Not marine band) which are routinely more prone to deliver a jagged edge.
the chief area of concern is the corner, especially around the leading edge where sits the groove for cover plates.
Fortunately brass and 'German silver' is quite soft and easily smoothed.
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Killa_Hertz
1768 posts
Sep 22, 2016
5:58 AM
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Sorry Curly. I hadn't been back to this thread.
Basically the Marine Band 1896 comb is a rough wood. The corners of the tines are very sharp and the wood itself can be pretty abrasive. Also the edges of the reed plates can be very sharp. So when your first learning and playing Lip Pursed, you have the inside of your lips running up and down the harp. This can really be quite uncomfortable at first. It may be fine for a few minutes, but trust me ... if you play that thing for a hour, you'll be Raw.
Once you have been playing a while your lips toughen up and this wont be an issue. You can also smooth out all the sharp edges. I use a Dremel with a wire wheel on it to smooth out the sharp edges on the reedplates if I get one that is particularly sharp. And I use a small file to get the edges of the comb tines.
BEE you have been playing a long time, you may have forgotten how soft the inside of your lips once were. Or maybe it never did bother you and I'm just a sissy, idk. lol.
Curly .. It's really not a huge deal. You were just saying how you needed a new harp and I wanted you to be aware of this. I didn't want you to get a 1896 and be all excited to have a new harp and then not be able to play it because it tears your mouth up.
I'm not sure if anyone suggested Lee Oskar. But they also make great harps. And they are cheap. They also come with a great little case. The individual cases can be clicked together so that it creates one case. its pretty nice to have. When first starting out I bought a G,A,C Lee Oskars and clicked them together. I could then carry all 3 harps in my pocket without worrying about them getting messed up.
Anyways you will probably eventually buy one of every model out there. So I say just pick one. The special 20 is fantastic, but I find the holes a bit small.
As MTG said Most of the preferences people have are all a comfort thing. You have to find one that fits your needs. Pretty much every harp over $30 or $40 is going to be a great harp. It just depends on if it fits you or not.
I also highly recommend Rockin Rons . com I buy Everything from him. He is a great guy. His prices are great, his shipping is very fast and FREE. He will go out of his way to make sure you get what you need. Awesome guy. I wont buy from anyone else
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dchurch
44 posts
Oct 02, 2016
12:16 AM
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Hi Curley, Great thread. Thought I could add a couple things. My first harp was a Special 20 in C. I couldn't quite appreciate how good it was until I tried a few cheep ones for compairison. Since then I've stuck with quality makes and models. I figure I need all the help I can get.
You sound like a hands on guy. I've learned a lot by restoring old Marine Band's found at auction and in 2nd hand stores... Not caring about condition, just dive in: dissasemble, clean, sand flat, seal combs, replace reeds, tune, gap... You will gain a parts collection, experience and the satisfaction of preserving some good old harps. Restored Marine Bands play great. And you will be in control of how well they play, and how smooth the edges are... And you can use the skills to work on your store bought harp collection.
It's nice not having to be overly concerned with how well a particular harp plays out of the box. I havn't found one yet that didn't deserve some tweeking.
I realize restoring old harps isn't for everyone. It requires some dedicated time, some tools, a bit of work space...
Regards,
Dave
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It's about time I got around to this.
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curlycatvaughan
7 posts
Oct 05, 2016
12:28 PM
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Thanks, Dave!
I'm a hands on gal, but otherwise that assumption was correct. :)
This is going to be so much fun! In buying used harps, is there anything in particular I should look for or avoid? Do certain year models have issues? I know to avoid the obvious things like dents, rust, and significant pitting, but as a newbie, there might be things I'm not aware of.
BTW I went to the music store last night to look at MBs because I wanted to actually handle one before I decided to buy one from Rockin' Ron's, and I can see how they might be sharp. I have heard about people sanding the front of the reed plates, but what seemed to me like it might be sharp was the top edge, near the cover. I'll just buy a used one and work on it and see from there whether I want to get a new one.
(But it seems one can hurt one's self on Sp20s too--I kept practicing the other night despite my body telling me to stop, and that was a poor choice. I have a small abrasion on my upper lip!)
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"Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run, there's still time to change the road you're on." --Led Zeppelin
Last Edited by curlycatvaughan on Oct 05, 2016 12:31 PM
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SuperBee
4165 posts
Oct 05, 2016
5:10 PM
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With Marine Bands, Blues Harps, Special 20s, Pro Harps, Golden Melodies:
Avoid early MS series harps.
The pre-MS harps made from around 1985 to 1992 are bad news.
The blues harps and marine bands from that era are notoriously bad. And very resistant to improvement.
This document from Richard Sleigh is a good summary of old Marine Bands and how to identify them.
Blues harps (pre ms) are just marine bands with different covers.
The big clue is the number and placement of nails on the draw reed plate.
Identity marine bands"
Last Edited by SuperBee on Oct 05, 2016 5:11 PM
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dchurch
45 posts
Oct 06, 2016
12:08 AM
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Very good Curly,
I have personally sought out the classic Marine Bands as SuperBee pointed you towards. I like the wood combs and sanding them flat… But in time you may find you prefer playing the Special 20, or Golden Melody...
I think the Special 20 is easier on the chops for sure but you will get over the tenderness with more play time.
I like to round over that top edge you mentioned along with the ends and corners… A fine jewelry file is handy for this work, so is carbide paper ranging from 220 grit to 1500 grit (and/or emery cloth). I use a belt sander for more radical work. I have some collectible harps kept in original condition.
I'll recommend staying away from the obvious problems that you mentioned. But if it’s a classic MB I feel like the results are worth my effort.
A few tools and materials are going to be important, so is good lighting and close up vision. I use a 5x optical headset because my eyes are getting old.
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It's about time I got around to this.
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dchurch
47 posts
Oct 25, 2016
10:24 AM
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I thought I'd follow up on this thread with a few photos of a classic Marine Band that I just finished renovating yesterday.
These are rewarding projects for multiple reasons not the least of which is breathing new life into a neat old piece of harmonica history.
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It's about time I got around to this.
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