As you know, I record my practice stuff all the time. I normally use a dynamic mic (like that 57-like pyle pro) and it's good for the close-up acoustic work, because you can get all kinds of interesting effect varying your hands and distance to the mic.
But when I record ambiently i.e. several feet away from the mic, I always thought my timbre was trebly and thin - comparing like-for-like with other home-type recordings I hear on YT.
Obviously I assumed it was me, and I'd gone through all the recommended steps to round the sound (open throat, harp deep in mouth etc.) Some people say you are stuck with your basic timbre, based on your physiology. Que sera sera.
But last week I happened to use a different recording device, ambiently again, which has a condenser mic. Hey presto the timbre is warmer and compares well with others. Then I tried my phone (also a condenser mic of course), even that was 'right'.
That's it. I'll use a condenser mic for ambient recording.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 20, 2016 3:50 AM
I'm interested. I've done very little home recording where sound quality per Se was of any importance to me. Consequently I have invested no time into learning even the basics of getting good quality sound. I usually just use my iMac built-in mic, or the iPhone, or a zoom h1. I assume I need some sort of interface and/or software to use a microphone plugged in to the computer and bypass the inbuilt mic...just haven't ever investigated
Very cool thread. Ive been getting into this a bit over the last month or so. I really need to get a computer, but we are moving, Buying a house soon. So i guess WE are going to wait til after the move to get one ;^)
But i dig it good thread ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
One thing i think you should Mention MTG is that condenser mics often require phantom power. So if one doesnt have the means to provide such power, they may find the mic useless.
I have found i sound "thin", as you describe, on my phone. So i guess I'm S.O.L. I have been trying to set up a "budget home studio." I have searched n waited n got some really good deals on really good gear. I think all that's missing is the computer. Althought i may be able to use my phone somehow.
Heres my setup so far:
Yamaha MG12/4 mixer (very decent mixer. I was lucky and found in new condition on ebay for $40.)
ADK A-51 Cardioid Condenser Studio Mic. (Haven't had alot of time to dial in a good sound on it yet, but it is supposed to be one of the best "budget" level condensers. Again "Stole" this from eBay.)
3 - Behringer Super Cardioid Microphones XM1800S With Carrying Case. (These mics are better than i expected, really happy with em. On/off switch. Again Ebay $26 for all three and the case. Practically new condition.)
Digitech JamMan Solo XT (This pedal is great. Ive been basically using it for recording. Its a stereo pedal so i can run stereo outputs out of my board into it, record a track, then layer it with another by dubing. I then use either the headphones on the board by running the pedal back into a channel. Or i run the pedal out to a monitor.)
Very Nice Keyboard ( Im not sure the model, I'm not home at the moment to look. But its a $400 keyboard. I paid $40 at the flea market. I use it for learning theory and scales etc. But i also have it run into the mixer and i can create drum tracks, bass lines, horn lines, techno beats, etc. Its totally paid for itself already.)
Pyle 57 copy ( great value mic. Highly recommended. Either to play thru with or without an XFMR. Or for micing an amp. )
Ive also got a few amps and various other mics. My goto mic to play thru is the akai dm-13. I love these mics.
Well the point of this wasnt to brag about my stuff, but to show people how cheaply you can set up a decent home rig.
I'm excited to upload some of my stuff. When i figure out how. Im going to try that box app. But right now i gotta run the dog has to pee.
---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 20, 2016 9:04 AM
I haven't watched the video yet, but Those input boxes are a lil wierd. Whats the difference between having one of those and going main output from a mixer straight to your computer?
A mixer is far more useful. Those input boxes aren't cheap and only usually have two inputs. Im not sure if they have phantom power either, but i assume most do. It just seems like a waste of money. So what am i missing?
I'm sure i could find out more if i looked into em, but i don't have a computer yet anyways. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
kHz - Yes, thank you that's good to point out. A condenser mic will need power, either supplied by phantom power or sometimes a battery. I guess those USB mics that people use for podcasts are powered via the USB cable.
Re the input box, I guess if you have a mixer then you don't need one of those.
rogonzab - Good stuff, I've watched the first one and I'm interested to see the others.
My own setup is very simple, because the purpose is to record my own practice. So I have that pylepro (57-type) dynamic mic into little Art-Pro mixer (not the tubey one), and then into a simple USB external sound dongle. Then into Audacity and out to mp3.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 20, 2016 12:33 PM
Thats cool. Your stuff comes out sounding good mtg. Especially considering your just working with a minimalist setup. That's good to hear. I wasnt trying to setup anything fantastic. I just wanted the mixer to have inputs for all the things i wanted to record with. And have a lil expansion room. I guess alot of people just go straight in and then mess with the sound? I guess i just prefer the mixer because it's what im used to.
Ive been messing with different ways to record the sound. Trying to see what works best. Miced amp or line out. Two amps miced. One miced one line out. Micing the room & the amp. Etc.
Clean signal amp & dirty amp. Mixed together
Its pretty cool. Something to play with.
I saw a video where a guy miced the rear of the cone and the front. But apparently you run into problems with this because the speaker is flexing in oposite directions. So you have to phase invert the rear cab mic. Pretty neat stuff.
---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 20, 2016 1:32 PM
Thank you. I think it's easier to use a mixer rather than post process, if you have one. My little mixer is a very simple one, just adjusts the level, it doesn't have reverb or eq. I normally add a bit of reverb after recording, gives it a more natural sound I think.
Re mic'ing the amp, yes you can do all kinds of wonderful things with multiple mics. That's what they do in the studio. Ambient, close mic in various places on the cone, back of the cabinet.
Slightly off topic, but not so far as I think I can't get away with it.
Got myself a Digitech JamMan Stereo Looper, cos I liked the idea of having stereo inputs plus the XLR mic input. Thought I could feed the wife's digital piano through it too, but as it turns out, it doesn't have a line out - only a midi in and out channel.
No laughing please guys, cos this is coming from someone who is so tech savvy, he's still trying to figure why the electricity doesn't fall out of the wall when he unplugs his amp ;). There isn't an adaptor I can get to connect the midi out with the line in of the JamMan, is there? I reckon I'll really need to invest in some kind of midi device, or mixer or something, but I really haven't the slightest clue about this kind of stuff.
There's a big musicians' flea market happening here next month, so I'd appreciate it if someone could give me some pointers on what I should keep an eye out for.
Does the piano have a headphone output? If so, you can do something with that. The signal level may not be quite right for input to the JamMan, but then again it may be. If it isn't, then are still things you can do.
Anticipating that it does, you'd need a cable that has a stereo headphone jack (1/4" or 1/8"?) on one end, and either going into a 1/4" mono on the other, or into two mono 1/4" jacks (R and L).
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 21, 2016 3:46 AM
Yes tigger. I got the solo xt because it is stereo also. Not quite as nice as the one you have. The jamman stereo has lots of cool features. But to your question.... basically what mtg already said .... the out channel should be a headphone jack. My kwyboard has a headphone/out and a midi. The headphone is 1/4" so i can use a guitar cable to run it to the mixer.
Im not sure if you can get a 1/4" to midi cable or not. Or midi to xlr. I'm going to buy a midi cable for my keyboard to run into the mixer, because as mtg says, i suspect the midi has a better signal out than the headphone/out.
But if you buy a small mixer, Even a 3 or 4 channel, you can run multiple things into the mixer than into the jamman. That's what im doing. The small mixers can be had new for like $30, used for Much less. That's the direction i was going. Until i stumbled upon a 12 chanel for the same price. It's very handy to not have to switch cables all around to dub a new instrument into the jamman.
Anyhow try the output to mono in on the jamman. Should work just fine. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 21, 2016 6:22 AM
DUH!! Headphone jack - even I should have thought of that one. Thanks guys, it has two (no doubt so your teacher can listen in too without disturbing the neighbours :D )and they both work perfectly for the JamMan.
While I'm berating myself, why didn't I just get the Solo XT and a small mixer? Would have given me more options, and I'd have had the synchro feature if I wind up getting The Wife and Kids Solo XTs as well. With a bit of practice, the four of us could sound like the London frickin' Philharmonic on stage.
Oh well, once I've played around with it some, I'm sure I'll find a use for the "Loop Up" and "Loop Down" switches, and I reckon it'll still go for a good price if I decide to sell it and go the XT route.
I believe the stereo has all those options ... plus some. Is yours the one with pedals or buttons? It has volumes for each input i believe. It should syncs with the xt. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 21, 2016 10:09 PM
It does have a lot of features the XT doesn't have, including volume controls for all the inputs, but I don't think it has the "synch" feature. Maybe it does though. Suppose I'll have to sit down with the book and check it out ;)
Last Edited by Tiggertoo1962 on Mar 22, 2016 1:44 AM
Yes. Thats the one i wanted, but decided i really didn't NEED it ... lol. Im not positive about the sync, but ... it is a very nice pedal.
I believe you can input a mic to the XLR (which has its own volume) aswell as your 1/4" stereo inputs(which have their own volume ), and 1/8" for mp3.
So you can run a xlr - mic for harp, keyboard in the 1/4", and mp3 backing track into the 1/8". Pretty decent setup. Its kindof got a very basic mixer built in. Not too shaby. Ofcourse if you want more than a clean harp signal, thats where you run into problems.
But i saw a 4 channel mixer go on ebay yesterday for $8 plus shipping. So if it comes to it, It won't break the bank.
---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
I only needed that one cos the rest of the family always wants to play with my toys - lol. Hasn't got the synch though, but I can live with that.
"... if you want more than a clean harp signal, thats where you run into problems."
After reading the "line out to another amp" thread over in the main forum, I've been wondering if I can feed the mic into a DA5 to use the effects on it, and from there into the looper via the line/phone jack. I already have a 1/4" to XLR adaptor cos I have some 1/4" mic cables, so it won't cost me anything to try... unless my amps go "KABOOM!" Haven't had time today, but I'll be giving it a go during the week at some point.
It absolutely works. I have been going .... mic into DA5 .. line out to mixer channel ...mixer sub group1 out to jam man .. also mp3 into jamman ... jamman into seperate mixer channel and using headphones. Or out of jamman to another amp across the room acting as a monitor
This is one way i do it. And my favorite way. I do it differently if using my vht because the line out does not turn off the speaker like it does on the da5. So i can mic the vht aswell as line out. And then i dont need a monitor or headphones. But i rather like the headphones honestly.
Being you dont have a mixer. I would suggest. Mic into da5 ... da5 out to jamman ... plug an mp3 or phone into jamman for recording/playing backing tracks into the lil 1/8" on the side ... then headphone out of jamman. Is a pretty good setup. You can rock out n nobody can hear.
What i did was record a few different backingtracks and store them eg. 1 , 2, 3. Then as you play and dub over them you can save them under a different store location. Eg 4, 5, 6 etc.
---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Maybe I'm just having another dumb day, but how do you play what you have stored on e.g. channel 1, then record and overdub on it and save it to e.g. channel 5? Think I'm missing something here,but it may be just a few brain cells ;). Probably just need to look at the instruction manual a bit closer...
Yea read the instructions it'll help unlock alot of things it can do.
But here's how to do this. Plug MP3 or phone into 1/8" jack in the side. Select an empty track Eg. track 1. Record the backing track. (now the way i have mine set up, when i click the pedal to record, it waits until it hears you start playing before it records. This way you dont have to click and HURRY START PLAYING. or in this example it will wait until you hit play on the mp3. You can take your time and start when your ready. the manual will tell you how to do this.) When the song is over click the pedal to stop recording. Now hit the store button (which will now be RED.) Then hit STORE again to store on the track. Now track ! is for Backing track A.
Now go up to track 2 and back down to track 1. This ensures that everything is set back to the start. Mext , while on track 1, you can double click so that the light turns orange. This will allow you to overdub and also start the track playing. now play over the track and when its over click overdub off so that the light turns green. now you can listen to your playing. if you like it and want to save it push the STORE button (which will be RED because anytime you change something it lights up.) select Eg. Track 2 and hit STORE.
Now track 1 is Just Backing track A to be used again.
Track 2 is Backing track A plus your playing.
Also you have a keyboard so if you want to just have something better than a metronome to jam to. plug your keyboard into the jamman, use the drum kit on the keyboard to make a 30 sec beat. Kick snare ... kick snare .... Kick kick Snare type thing. then you can even Overdub in some bass lines and whatever else you want. STORE that. Then you can go into the menu and change the BPM to whatever your feelin. Works pretty good. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Nice one, Killa - thanks for that. Never been big on instruction manuals, but there's obviously a whole bunch of stuff this thing can do that you'll never figure out for yourself. What I need is the "youtube full instruction manual, everything you can possibly do with this pedal" version :D.
I found that there really wasn't that much stuff. I downloaded the PDF. I hate the instruction manuals too, but like you said you ll never get it on your own.
My advice .... Just skim the functions. So you know what it CAN do. Then look each one up as/if you need it. That way your not reading stuff you ll likely forget anyways. But all in all its pretty straight forward. Your pedal does more functions though so ....
but the nice thing ... like i said you can change BPM on a track without changing the pitch. which is nice. it also has autoquantize feature and other features to help you match everything up right. Not sure how they all work really because i have yet to put them to use. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 23, 2016 12:46 PM
rogonzab - Great video on recording thanks! Nicely presented too with pictures + audio and pointers to show what's being recorded.
Proximity Effect and Driven Acoustic Good demo of the proximity effect. He shows the effect from a minimum of 3 inches, then further away. I will add that there is even more fun to be had by getting even closer to the mic - the proximity effect is strongest when the source is less than 1 inch away, especially with a mic like the SM57 that doesn't have a ball grill. Winslow calls this 'Driven Acoustic'. Here's an example of me trying to recreate the strong Wah effect on Big Walter's Now Tell Me Baby (first BW himself, then the rest is me).
The basic technique is to make a good cup, with a very small gap that you put close or onto the mic. As you open/close even slightly it greatly exaggerates the timbre and volume changes.
Direct Mic Signal At 10m15s he shows the direct recorded signal from a bullet mic, which shows distortion. I've asserted that the straight mic signal isn't distorted (with grit anyway) as my own experiments have shown the DI signal to be clean.
So I may have to look again. It could still be that the bullet mic is overdriving some part of the DI input chain, but you can't tell. He shows it going into a Tonebone switch, which is designed for guitar and so the much stronger mic signal may be overdriving it. But that's speculation.
Truth ... the best way: dowload the box app to your phone or goto thebox website and get an account. Then upload your sound file. Once its uploaded, right click it and select SHARE, then EMBED WIDGET. Copy all the text in the box. Paste it directly into the forum. You dont need to do anyth8ng else it'll show right up in your post.
MTG Ive seen that video before. That same guy has a series where he shows micing the rear of the cone and the front at the same time. Then how to reverse the signal on the cone mic by reversing the polarity. He shows alot of good stuff. Anyone interested in micing different locations should really check them out. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 25, 2016 4:16 PM
Yea that software is cool. Ive seen lots of guitar guys do cool stuff with it. Plus its a REALLY cheap way to go if you don't want to invest in a bunch of gear.
That was cool. Ide like to hear more from you with this software. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Can any of you guys suggest a dirt cheap setup for a raw beginner at this? By that I mean the cheapest system you might consider acceptable (going by retail prices).
In recent months I've gained the courage (if not the skill) and posted some recordings (not this site mind you), but I've never been happy with the sound quality. It might just be that the recording is quite accurate, but it sounded better in my mind, who knows...
Typically I'll use my phone, sometimes with an irig mic cast microphone plugged in. It's okay for what it is, but I want to try something better.
Unfortunately for me, when it comes to any purchase that costs more than a harmonica, I end up buying a harmonica instead.... :/
Yes I have an old PC, and actually some old microphones from when I used to dabble in movie making.
Trouble was that during some tests, the PC was so loud, it negated the higher quality recording of the microphones. Not sure if I should go that route any more. ---------- Forum Search Direct Link
I use my looper pedal for recording now. A ditto looper can be had pretty cheap. Especially used. Or look for a used jamman. ---------- Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain.
Thanks for your advice kHz but practically the only word I understood from your last post was 'cheap'. :) The rest came through like white noise (a bit of topical humour there).
As I said earlier, I'm a beginner when it comes to these things. I use apple macs at work but don't own any.
"Unfortunately for me, when it comes to any purchase that costs more than a harmonica, I end up buying a harmonica instead.... :/". Had to read that out to the wife... brilliant!
A looper is a pedal, or unit, which you can record a phrase on, and then overdub to make a multi-layered recording, which you can then play as a repeating "loop". In its simplest form, you plug your instrument (or mic, if you're recording a harp) into it, then connect the line out with an amp. If you don't have an amp, or if you just have narky neighbours who object to a bit of healthy noise, you can plug in a set of headphones instead.
Not sure about other, older models, as I only recently bought mine, but with the JamMan loopers, you can connect them to your computer and upload recordings directly to your hard drive.
But I believe a looper will be a relatively cheap option.
I was trying to find one of those Old Mixers with the Tape deck built in. That would work pretty good. But you would have to find tapes ... lol.
Idk recording is not going to be very cheap. The absolute cheapest route might be a voice recorder. If you find one with a memory card or a usb to upload to your phone/computer. That might work.
But honestly I would just continue to use your phone until you have money for something better.
I use my phone all the time. Its not the most flattering, but what r ya gonna do?
Ill keep it in the back of my head and maybe ill think of something better, idk. Sorry. ---------- Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain.
No need to apologise Khz...Thanks for the info everyone.
Even if I can't afford something now, it's good to know what I could aim to invest in later.
As I understand it, the looper goes inbetween the mic and the computer (or other recording device) so isn't the looper unnecessary (assuming you don't want any effects, etc)?
I had spent some time trying to resurrect old gear for recording, with mixed results. As I mentioned earlier, my PC is noisy, but it occurred to me I might be able to run the signal through my home cinema receiver for amplification and the different tone that would deliver.
I've also yet to try using my laptop, which is a good deal quieter than my PC.
No the looper records. You click the button and it records, then you click it again and it plays back. Click it again and you can dub over what you have just recorded.
So for instance my looper has an 1/8" input. So i can plug a phone/mp3 player into it, then play a backing track and record that backing track. Then i can put it in dub mode and play over it with a mic into the 1/4" input and then play back the track with me playing over it.
If you decide to get a looper i can go thru some of the different options available with the diffetent models. Not all created equal.
You tube looper. And harmonica looper. And toy can see what can be done. You tube Brendan powers looper aswell he died great things with a looper
Hope that helps. ---------- Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain.
Thanks Killa. I had seen some of those kinds of videos before, just wasn't previously aware what those devices were called.
Had a quick look online, those things seemed a bit more expensive than I hoped - but then I don't need any effects or overdub facility so maybe I just need something simpler.
I don't want to dissuade you from getting a looper, that does seem a very convenient way to record. But if you have a (quiet) laptop, and some mics, then that surely must be the cheapest option?
You might need a usb-mic interface, but you can get simple units very cheaply. But you might not need one at all, depending on your mics and the laptop.
Key thing is that the Audacity recording software is free. (it is still free isn't it folks?) ---------- Favourite Threads
I believe the computer option was out. That's why i asked about ipods n ipads.
The tower was very loud.
Mtg Can u use a longer mic cable? Im not sure if that will illiminate noise. I guys you still need to run the DAW. But is the noise picked up internally or thru the mic? Idk i haven't gotten that far. ..lol. ---------- Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain.
Ahh. I missed that. Yes harmless ... MTG is totally right. The laptop is the wsy to go. Maybe he can tell you specifically what interfaces to buy. That are cheap yet still produce quality sound.
Then you want to get a DAW. But in any event the laptop will be your best bet. I don't have a laptop or computer. That's why i go the route that i do. ---------- Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain.
I used one for a while, great quality if you set it right (is not that hard, you follow the instructions and you are set), 16 bits is cd quality! (Yes, I lnow that the add tells you that this are 24bit, but they are not)
You can connect your harp mic direct, or use any vocal mic whit the adapter.
I recorded this using the gear in the image:
---------- Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.
Last Edited by rogonzab on Apr 02, 2016 10:10 AM
Audacity is great (and free) if you only want to record one track (you playing over a BT), but if you need something more, I use Reaper and it works great. ---------- Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.
Well, today I dodged the chores I was supposed to do and instead rummaged through my old AV gear (told the wife I was 'tidying up' ;) ). I found several microphones, a mixer and even a USB interface (similar to the one above). Most of which I bought over 10 years ago on a whim, and never even used much...
So I tried using this stuff with my laptop. There were some technical issues (I don't know much about level settings and such), but the main problem is how unwieldy everything becomes - I can't go straight from my mic to the USB interface. Initial results look promising so far, but I may well consider a more convenient standalone device at some point in the future.
DAW. Is what programs like audacity are called. Digital Audio Workstation?
Idk I'm not far ahead of you on all this computer recording stuff, so don't feel bad. I just figured out what a DAW was a few weeks ago.
Do some reading on the subject online. You should be knowledgeable enough in no time.
Search keywords like.
Home recording. Using aDAW for recording. Etc.
There are free daw like audacity. Ramging all the way up to pro level stuff that costs ALOT. So. Some have entry level versions for like $10, that can be upgraded with patches as you go.
So do some searching. Figure out your options. Sounds like you should be able to make it work fine with what you have. And a free daw like audacity.
ZAB ...NICE RECORDING BRO!!! ---------- Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain.
And Don't Pet The Monkey ... He Bites!
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Apr 02, 2016 5:05 PM
