I've noticed that no one seems to ever talk about using the Hohner Cross Harps or Blues Harps, or (on this forum, anyway) the Lee Oskars. I know that none of these models suit my needs for various reasons... but I am curious as to why they aren't popular. They're not poorly made, in general. Talk amongst yourselves.
I've got an old Blues Harp in C and it plays just as good as anything else I've got...which isn't that great...or maybe it's just me. ---------- My YouTube Channel
I play Lee Oskars, Scott. The first harp I bought in 1990 was a Lee Oskar. I've now expanded into customs and other OOTB harps, but I still have more LOs than anything else. I don't overblow, which might be one reason. They play well, are durable and easy enough to find. Their prices have gone up considerably, but it's not a harp I'll pass up, especially when I need a last-minute replacement or backup harp before a show. ----------
Todd L. Greene, Professor of Meaningless Trivia
Last Edited by on Jan 14, 2011 1:39 PM
In my experience........... LO's were the go thru the eighties to the nineties due to - value,performance, and some sort of very successful marketing strategy that seemed to make them available just about anywhere (Aussie perspective!). Blues Harps seemed to answer our needs with the name but I always found them a little too hard to play without a fair amount of breath.. (mostly my technique I thought, as one I have now is not too bad but at this stage with better technique and a little tinkering its playable) Haven't had a Cross Harp yet! You'll probably find a lot of us own a fair amount of these harps, but with the current line up of alternatives (particularly the Suzukis) there's just so much more out there. As a result of this, I haven't bought a LO for a while, but they still figure a lot in my kit, but are slowly being replaced!!
I have a full set of 14 Lee Oskars plus 3 minors and a melody maker. I've tried just about everything else and settled on Golden Melodies as my next preference because of their OB friendliness, but I think I'll only get the 7 most useful keys. I gig the Lee Oskars. the GMs are my play at home harps.
LOs get a bad press which I don't understand.
I think the airtightness has improved considerably over the last few years - so I'd urge anyone who is basing their opinion of them from an experience more than 5 years ago, I'd urge them to try a more recently made one.
As for Marine Bands, I really struggle to understand why people would prefer to play a harp that cuts your lips to ribbons, is a lottery in quality control, has no compression on the 3 hole and last only a year before the reeds flat out.
I have owned only one Lee Oskar and I bought it years ago. It was the first one I saw in a minor key Gm in this case. When I came back to playing harp I picked this one up again and had a go with it. It still plays well (even ob's on 4,5&6!) though it is weird and takes some getting used to the unusual tuning.
I recorded this vid. of Moon over Bourbon Street which lays out very well on this harp. I think it's 2nd position, it usually is with me.
I also owned one Cross Harp in A which was pretty old and that was a beaut and the first one I picked up again to play. Unfortuntely I broke No. 3 reed within 2 weeks - which was a great shame cos I loved that harp like a son. It has since done sterling service after being put out to grass, becoming a guinea pig to my dubious and mutilating customising skills.
I bought a complete set LOs when they first came out in the mid 80s. I found them to be very durable and fun to play--good compression. Very nice harps, although the tone was a little bright.
Back then, LOs were tuned to A444, although at the time I didn't know what that meant. But I kept getting complaints from keyboard players that i was not in tune, so i eventually stopped using them. (I think LOs are tuned to A441 these days, but I'm noyt sure.)
Personally, I think MBs are the crappiest harps on the planet. i cannot imagine how anyone can stand to play them.
I still have a couple of LO's in my box...Dm & Am....also some Blues Harps. I find the BH's play ok. The combs are pretty brittle...I'm not sure what they are made of but they don't seem to be the same material as MB combs. ----------
I own 5 LO and 3 of them are about 20 years old-as people say they are durable as I never had one go bad-I played the old blues harps and they were just like the mb1896 with the comb swelling and they went bad quick
I use Blues Harps exclusively, but must admit that most have Big River covers on them because they are easy to open the back of. I like the modular Idea. I just wish hohner would sell aftermarket parts, like a selection of combs or alternative cover-plates. I owned a LO once. Hated it. Tried a Marine Band and it swelled and had nails and was a mess. So I tried Blues Harps and was sold. They work for me. ----------
I don't use the Blues Harp or the Cross Harp, or anything in the MS series because of their size. They are just too bulky for me. (The same is true of Seydel 1847 - it's the same size and has the same cover plate as the Big River harp.) I don't think MS harps are bad harps, and some customizers have been able to make them into to nice playing harps, though they aren't ideal for overblows. They do have a nice sound to them though. I use them for alternate tunings sometimes. I had a sealed Blues Harp on the For Sale page but no one bought it. It's a nice harp.
I like the feel of the smaller handmade Hohner harps. The Suzukis are comfortable to hold as well, and to me are a better competitor for Hohner than anyone else.
Lee Oskars are not bad harps, in fact, they last forever, but they have a certain sound to them that I just don't care for. It isn't a bad sound or anything, I just don't prefer it. And Todd G. is right that they aren't good for overblows. Too bad they don't get with the times and offer some other models here in the USA with different reed profiles that ARE ideal for overblows. Like it or not, overblows and overdraws are becoming as normal as bends, and are here to stay. TOMBO has other models, but we still can't get them in the USA, so I have no idea if any of them are suitable for overblows, except that TOMBO Ultimo is not. It will overblow, but when you try to bend them, look out! Squeal city!
@hvyj - I don't understand everyone's fascination with Marine Bands either, though I do like the Crossover and the MB Deluxe.
I also don't understand the fascination with the Seydel 1847. I haven't played one yet that plays well out of the box. Even the ones at SPAH for people to try don't play well. I've even played customized ones that still don't play well, and squeal on the overblows and overdraws.
I wish we still had the original non-MS Hohner Cross Harp. That was one of the best harps I ever owned. I played it until all the paint wore off of the plates and the comb. I still have the reed plates somewhere..... that was a great harp.
I've played Blues Harps, Big Rivers and other harps in the MS Series. I've never played Lee Oskars. I've contemplated switching to Manji's, but haven't made the move.
i have several lee oskars and like them alot. i don't overblow so that's not a problem for me and i don't mind the (ET). i feel they are very responsive.
big rivers are alot like the blues harps you mention. i have several and find them not quite as tight as the lee oskars but for old style 1st position i would rather use them.
i have some sydel blues session, few marine bands, a couple of special twenties, and a trio of suzukis, but my favorite harps have got to be my golden melodies.....this week anyway. they are tight, feel great, and for me, bend smoother than the others.
You can order most harp parts ala carte through Hohner. This includes some reed plates too. The Crossover stuff isn't listed, but you can get at least cover plates and combs for all models.
My first set was all LO's, but that lasted only a year or so as I took to obs. ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas Updated 1/11/11
I have 3 Blues Harps. I really like their tone but they tear my lip up something terrible. I actually hope to do something about smoothing them off at some point. I also have Lee Oskars. I don't recommend them to other people because I don't want to limit their OB possibilities, but as a non-OBer I actually use them a lot. I play the Bb all the time, probably more than any other harp I own. I get nice blow bends out of it. I haven't gotten around to a Cross Harp. I don't think the local store carries them.
Harps I've tried- Piedmonts, Blues Bands, Pocket Pals, Blues Harps, Pucks, Marine Bands, Special 20's, Golden Melodies, Lee Oskars, Seydel Blues Favorite (plus some tremolos).
The Piedmonts, the Sp 20's, the Lee Oskars and the Blues Favorite don't chew up my lips. All the others do.
Cross Harp is complete sh*t, especially for the price. Stock MS plastic comb is not enough airtight yet, while golden painting (or silver on JJ Milteau harp) make it twice leakier, reedplates are OK. BTW Blues Harp MS is not too bad harmonica if make comb flat and make all reedwork, comb can be flattened with easy, reedwork is not as easy as with Golden Melodies, but possible. Lee Oscars is pleasant harmonica for playing without overblows, I loved them before start using overblows. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
i like blues harps...i gotta NOS pre-MS blues harp i think isnt so good,but might customise ok. mainly i like the way they feel...nice shape for me.
i only bought 1 LO. its ok. theyre quite popular in australia i think...jim conway was a big rap for them i think...but they used to cost a little more than the Hohners, so i never went there but once. ----------
I played exclusively bluesharps for years, until I took to more expensive models two years ago. But they are still my "replacement" harps, more resistant than a lot of other models, good tone and easy to play. My bluesharp in Bb is one of my favorite harps, I play it a lot by myself (not live, because nobody seems to be playin' in F !) and it's still ok after more than 2 years.
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2011 5:00 AM
I use mostly Oskars richter and minor tuned but also have a few Huang Star Peformers in lesser used keys, low tuned Big Rivers and Golden Melodys some Herings ,a Sedyel 1847 and both hering and hohner chroms . I like the Oskars due to their longevity. All of them have been tweaked to some extent.
Todd and hvyj...I don't understand the big deal about MBs either. I hated the LOs I tried. The Suzukis are okay, but a little stiff to me. I guess a lot of people stick with what they start with and get used to..myself included. Golden Melodys.....to be honest harps like MBs do not work with my embrochure..the corners go inside my mouth.
Funny enough, I've got a MS Crossharp in D on my desk. It's OTB, and doesn't play all that well. 2 draw is hard work and on a D harp that isn't good.
Lee Oskars are great second position harps if you don't overblow.
I'm amazed they haven't sorted this yet as they pretty much ruled the 80's and 90's before OB's became mainstream. I've heard that the only problem is the reed width. Surely their sales decrease would justify investment in R&D and tooling?
I've got loads of them and was considering waxing them etc. Apparently you can get them to work and there is a how to vid on YouTube, but I've recently discovered the joys of Golden Melodys. IMHO, they're far easier to gap for overblows than Suzuki Manjis, Seydel Silver and Silver Plus and any other Hohner harp. Plus they're equal temperament, which works for single notes better.
Again, why Hohner doesn't make improvements to this line with better combs and some gapping rather than wasting time on the Crossover and Marine Band Deluxe completely bewilders me.
Price wise, for a 10% increase to production costs, they could charge 50% more for the harp and still be cheaper than any other pseudo customised harmonica currently in the market.
I agree Steve. Why doesn't Hohner make a Golden Melody Deluxe with a better comb and spend a little more time on reed set-up. Something in the $65 to $80 range. I believe they could potentially be THE best OOTB overbend harmonica.
Hohner Endorsees! How about putting a word in from the forum GM lovers!
@harpdude61: Look,the reason is because Hohner has a PT Barnum business philosophy (you know, there's a sucker born every minute). They do just fine selling a poorly made harp put together with nails that's leaky and has a crappy comb that swells (it's called a Marine Band). So Hohner probably figures that they don't have to devote a whole lot of attention to making quality products in order to make money.
I played Hohners for a long time until I discovered Suzukis. Nice to have a high quality alternative.
I think the key will be to have options, such as offering the GM with different comb materials, having an ET tuned version and a just/compromised tuned version, etc.
I personally would love shiny black covers, a black comb, and chrome plated reed plates, as brass reed plates just look tacky against black covers in my opinion.
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2011 10:56 AM
I am a Hohner endorsee and sent a second lengthy email about the GM to them this past week. The GM is my favorite harp and something I have worked on to improve for years on my own. Most my suggestions were around performance (didn't say much about the look beyond the comb, although I mod the coves too) and I was trying to limit my suggestions to things that would, in total, take less than 5 minutes to do to the harp to make it play better.
I actually like Big River covers a lot--and I like Blues Harps--of course, they both need extensive reed work and a custom cut comb to be playable--but they're good once that is done. My favorite is the MB--but only after they are customized. I should try an MB with BR covers--that would be pretty ideal for me.
I have a couple of LO's in natural minor--they play Summertime if you leave then out in the wind and I use them--but they rip the lip hairs, and they have those braille numbers on the cover that annoy the shit out of me.
I just can't afford to try them all, so I stay with the MB's. . . ---------- ==================================== Always be yourself--unless you suck. . . -Joss Whedon
I actually like Big River covers a lot--and I like Blues Harps--of course, they both need extensive reed work and a custom cut comb to be playable--but they're good once that is done. My favorite is the MB--but only after they are customized. I should try an MB with BR covers--that would be pretty ideal for me.
I have a couple of LO's in natural minor--they play Summertime if you leave then out in the wind and I use them--but they rip the lip hairs, and they have those braille numbers on the cover that annoy the shit out of me.
I just can't afford to try them all, so I stay with the MB's. . . ---------- ==================================== Always be yourself--unless you suck. . . -Joss Whedon
@oldwailer: "I should try an MB with BR covers--that would be pretty ideal for me."
With all due respect this makes no sense. as a practical matter, BR covers are MB covers with different engraving and sized for the larger MS combs and plates. Or am i missing something?
@hvyj--The shape of a BR where it goes into your mouth is very different from an MB. I know the sizes of the whole cover are different and it probably can't work--but it would just be a kind of dream harp for me if the shape of the MB covers was like the shape of the BR.
I hope that makes better sense. . . ---------- ==================================== Always be yourself--unless you suck. . . -Joss Whedon
@oldwailer - The MS Marine Band covers are identical to the Big RIver covers, if you can get them that is. Last I checked on them, the only guy that had MS Marine Bands was Didi Neumann, and I'm not sure if he's still selling harps - been a long time since I corresponded with him.
I know Big River covers are the same and are easier to get, but I was just thinking that this may be a good way to keep the Marine Band look.
As for them fitting, that would be a question for a comb maker I suppose. I think the MS harps are longer.
@hvyj - I agree with you on the black covers.
Last Edited by on Jan 15, 2011 3:03 PM
I worked for Hohner back in the 90's (retail div).
Frankly, from the movers and shakers back in those days, the general feeling was that they were more concerned with accordian sales and didn't understand why the British didn't embrace oompah music like the German and Swiss markets. As a result, they were bailed out by the German government a number of times.
If they want to make serious money and more importantly for us, serious instruments, they need to look at forums like this and sort out their product offering.
Another thing they need to look at is the Clavinet D6. All the tooling for this is in still in Trossingen (as I understand).
That's a product that could be chinese made and sold for well over $2,000 to discerning players.
Sorry for digressing off harps on that, but I see it as such a terrible waste.
I can't speak for LOs - I've never even held one in my hand...
Blues Harps...outside of this topic, it seems I'm in the minority, but I very much like these. For a while played these almost exclusively, but having seven of them stolen forced me to use some Marine Bands long enough for them to break in and make me realize I like those even better. Still like the BH, just don't play them as much because a well-sorted MB is just something special.
As for the Cross-Harp, well I have one of those, too, and it's the only plastic combed harp I play with any regularity.
If I had to summarize, I would say they're very good, very reliable...just not "special"...
I timed myself and could do it under a minute with the right tool. Obviously, the tolerances aren't perfect, but they have to gap and tune. I have some thoughts on really working fast, but not the ability to make the tools.
Honestly, a better comb would make a difference, but there are some simple mods that make a difference.
Another idea would be a custom shop. I'll gladly volunteer to work ther if it pays more than my current job, lol! ---------- Mike Quicksilver Custom Harmonicas Updated 1/11/11
have tried lots, started with crummy ones from hohner,moved to golden melodies in the 1980's.. wow a sealed harp with a comb that does not swell. since then have played with lo's (rarely blew out, cut through with 442 tuning, replacement reeds available) since then bushman soul voice, suzuki promaster, herring, custom harps of several makes the most under appreciated harp in my mind is the xb-40. a bit tough to learn but really a fun and unique instrument
Todd Parrott: "I also don't understand the fascination with the Seydel 1847. I haven't played one yet that plays well out of the box. Even the ones at SPAH for people to try don't play well. I've even played customized ones that still don't play well, and squeal on the overblows and overdraws."
That's interesting, and I would not lightly dismiss the opinion of a player of your caliber. On the other hand, I am a Seydel endorser and feel that the 1847 Silvers play, for me, better than any other harp OOTB, with OB/ODs a part of that equation. The C harp I bought recently plays even better OOTB than previous models.
Having said that, the choice of a harmonica model is about as personal as it gets, and everyone plays differently on the most elemental physical level. So it's going to be different for everyone.
I started in 2001 playing a full set of 12 Johnson $5 harps. After a year I decided to make the upgrade. Our club's best player used and swore by his Lee Oskars. When I got my set of 7 Lee Oskars, I was excited, but then disappointed. They only seemed slightly better than the 5$ Johnson's. There was no WOW factor. I recieved the WOW factor later, from new SP20s, Buesmasters, and Delta Frosts. ---------- intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
@Todd and hvyi--I know you are both worlds beyond my humble skills as a player and that you both know harps--but, with all due respect, I am sorry to report that you are both wrong about the BR and MB covers.
If you need the proof--I can upload some pictures--but if you have a BR and an MB handy, just pick them both up and look. If you set them on a table side by side and look at the ends of them--you will note that the BR has a profile like a mature woman--much more rounded at the mouth end. The MB is more like an adolescent woman--smaller and slimmer at the mouth end. I guess some guys like em slim and some like em mature ;). If you look at the back end, you'll notice that the covers of a BR are much more open and supported--making opening (and weakening) of the cover unnecessary--so, no need for support screws, which are kind of a pain to install.
This shape at the mouth end is just more comfortable for me to play.
The more I look at them, the more I think I could put BR covers on an MB by just letting the covers hang over a little in back and make a comb that is a little extended in the back. The length of both covers does seem to be identical, so that wouldn't be a problem.
Hmmm. . . Where can I get a good supply of BR covers for a reasonable price? ---------- ==================================== Always be yourself--unless you suck. . . -Joss Whedon
Last Edited by on Jan 17, 2011 8:13 PM
@Todd and hvyi--I know you are both worlds beyond my humble skills as a player and that you both know harps--but, with all due respect, I am sorry to report that you are both wrong about the BR and MB covers.
If you need the proof--I can upload some pictures--but if you have a BR and an MB handy, just pick them both up and look. If you set them on a table side by side and look at the ends of them--you will note that the BR has a profile like a mature woman--much more rounded at the mouth end. The MB is more like an adolescent woman--smaller and slimmer at the mouth end. I guess some guys like em slim and some like em mature ;). If you look at the back end, you'll notice that the covers of a BR are much more open and supported--making opening (and weakening) of the cover unnecessary--so, no need for support screws, which are kind of a pain to install.
This shape at the mouth end is just more comfortable for me to play.
The more I look at them, the more I think I could put BR covers on an MB by just letting the covers hang over a little in back and make a comb that is a little extended in the back. The length of both covers does seem to be identical, so that wouldn't be a problem.
Hmmm. . . ---------- ==================================== Always be yourself--unless you suck. . . -Joss Whedon
@oldwailer - I'm referring to the MS Marine Band, not the Marine Band classic. I'm holding an MS Marine Band right now, as well as a Big River, and the covers are the same. The bottom cover plate is the identical, with the seals, etc.
I realize that the Marine Band classic has a different plate.
The MS Marine Band was never available in the USA.
The point I was trying to make is, if you like Big River covers, but want to keep the Marine Band logo, go with MS Marine Band covers if you can find them.
All the MS Hohner's are low quality harps. That is not my opipion. That is the truth. Next I have to apolagize to Todd l. for say Lee Oskars were junk. I was wrong. I hadn't played one in so long I forgot why I started using them in the first place. THEY ARE VERY EASY TO PLAY! When I started overblowing about fifteen years ago I found LO's to be a pain in the ass. I then switched to SP20's and haven't looked back. Well I just customized a LO in "D" this past weekend and ya know how everone says you can't overblow with them. NOT TRUE! The 7 hole overdraw was the sweetest best sounding overdraw I ever played. The tone was not airy at all and I think I was bending up a little sharp even. The 6 overblow was easy and loud. I put Hohner Blues Harp covers on it to give a bigger sound, but I was surprised. You just can't take anyones word for the way a harp sounds or plays. You just got figure it out yourself!
chromatic, I'll forgive you if you send me an entire keyset of customs. ;-)
Interesting that you say you can OB/OD on them. I don't use these techniques(old dog/new trick), so I'm not immediately effected, but I have always assumed that if I decide to take the time and delve into the world of overbends, that I'd have to learn and apply the technique on harps OTHER than LOs. There's hope for me yet, then...
Yes, harp selection is entirely subjective. Adam and others play/love MBs right off the shelf. I hate them. But, I certainly couldn't tell Adam or anyone who uses them with proficiency that they suck because I don't like them-they're proving me wrong every day. It's not a one size fits all thing.
p.s.-A Lee Oskar that has had the covers opened up, with some embossing and gapping is a thing of beauty. Only a sealed wood comb could make it better. Of course, the same can be said for SP20s with the same treatment. I have several of both that HarveyHarp has modded for me, and there IS a wow factor there. ----------
Todd L. Greene, Professor of Meaningless Trivia
Last Edited by on Jan 18, 2011 10:00 AM
