silpakorn
12 posts
Aug 05, 2010
11:36 AM
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well, first of all, this question is just for traditional blues style of playing - that kind of sound, just a beginner's curiosity. Why bullets ? I'm about to go amplified and been looking around for weeks for custom and vintage stuffs and bullets always seem to be a better choice for this kind of sound and also more expensive. So I got this simply question why does it has to be bullets ? and to be honest, with some vintage dynamic mics from ron sunshine's sounded as good to me in that traditional style... opinions ?
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bluemoose
256 posts
Aug 05, 2010
11:45 AM
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I got the "Prince of Darkness", a hot-rodded Akai DM-13
from rharley at SUKM (Simply Unique Kustom Mics) that I
can't put down. Ron has a couple youtube vids with stock
ones into a Cruncher. Wow. Don't use my bullets anymore.
moose.
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silpakorn
13 posts
Aug 05, 2010
11:53 AM
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so it doesn't have to be bullets then ? but what about those bullets with some cool vintage elements compare to some good vintage dynamics ? thanks for your opinion by the way : )
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mr_so&so
349 posts
Aug 05, 2010
11:55 AM
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I'm not expert on mics, but in my opinion, bullets are the default because:
a) that's what the old Chicago guys used.
b) a bullet shape is easy to cup (if your hands are big enough).
c) They fit those big old classic elements (Astatic crystals and Shure CR/CMs) that sound good.
More modern elements are smaller and fit in a wider variety of housings --- now mostly sticks. They can sound just as good.
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bluemoose
257 posts
Aug 05, 2010
12:01 PM
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I could get 4 or 5 Akai's for what you'd pay for a
bullet with a hot crystal element. Depends on what you like.
(Sort of like I could get 3 '92 classic Mini's (1.3L fuel injected) for the price of a new BMW Mini. Depends on how you roll. :)
moose.
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 12:01 PM
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silpakorn
14 posts
Aug 05, 2010
12:07 PM
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@mr_so&so I like your abc, it makes a lot of sense ;) and very good example, moose !
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toddlgreene
1623 posts
Aug 05, 2010
12:07 PM
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listen to old Paul Butterfield. Like that sound? Not a bullet mic-but a Shure 545-the predecessor to the SM57. With proper technique, you can get just as much balls and growl out of a stick mic as you could a bullet. Bullets were used way back when because that's what they had and happened to try.
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Crescent City Harmonica Club
Todd L Greene, Co-Founder
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boris_plotnikov
185 posts
Aug 05, 2010
12:16 PM
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I used Green Bullet 520dx for two years, was annoyed with feedback, lack of high frequencies and it was broken (goes sound even muffled than new). Then I buy Senheiser e835s and gets happy, than Audix Fireball and gets much happier, then SM57 and it's almost perfect mic (my dream is to get ultimate, but too expensive for now). All players whose amplified tone I like prefer vocal mikes: JAson Ricci, Carlos Del Junco, Chris Michalek.
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mr_so&so
351 posts
Aug 05, 2010
12:20 PM
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I forgot one:
d) they look cool.
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Chinaski
114 posts
Aug 05, 2010
12:27 PM
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It's all subjective of course, but I swear by my 545. Bullets can be great, but they cetainly aren't essential for good blues tone.
I still have a couple of good bullets - one from Ron Sunshine with an incredibly hot element - which I use to change the texture now and then, but I always gravitate back to the 545. It has a fantastic mix of grit, punch and clarity which works for me.
I wouldn't feel like you have to drop a load of money on a bullet when there are plenty of less expensive alternatives.
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Myspace
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 12:30 PM
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barbequebob
1081 posts
Aug 05, 2010
12:29 PM
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Actually Butterfield DID use at JT30 in the mid 60's, and at that time, most clubs that had their own PA's, JT30's and GB's were standard PA mics back then from about the late 40's to the late 60's. There is a video on You Tube of him playing AND singing thru one and there is also a picture of him on the original LP of the very first Paul Butterfield Blues Band LP that came out in 1965.
To the gear freaks, saying this is total heresy, but truth be told, many of those old masters frankly didn't a rat's a** what they played thru as long as they got their sound across, and this is the truth.
Much of the time, if harp players used an amp back then, it also functioned as their PA as well and even as recent as the mid 70's, it wasn't common for bands to use Fender Twin Reverbs with an extension cabinet or a Dual Showman amp with two cabinets being used as a PA and until the mid to late 70's, most of the mics available were all hi-z mics simply because of this.
In the early to mid 60's, when the Shure Vocal Master was introduced as a PA, it was state of the art at the time and it was also hi-z.
The last all tube PA issued was the Fender PA 100, which was discontinued around 1985 as lower costing PA's like that from Peavey were using Low-z mics and since the mid 80's, low-z has been the standard.
The bullet mics generally all had omni directional pickup patterns, basically picking up 180 degress from the mic and their output compared to dynamics with cardioid or heart shaped pickup patterns, put out more gain, but also fed back more quickly.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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hvyj
505 posts
Aug 05, 2010
12:44 PM
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I've been playing electrified harp for 30 years, and I am mystified about why so many harp players prefer bullet mics. Never understood it and still don't. I've tried them, but, generally speaking, I don't like them or use them.
I currently use a 545 Ultimate. Before that, i used an EV RE-15. IMHO, either one is great for playing Chicago blues or just about any other style of music. An Audix Fireball or Fireball V is very transparent and perfect for a super clean sound. As far as i am concerned, just about ANY PA mic is better than most bullets.
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toddlgreene
1624 posts
Aug 05, 2010
12:50 PM
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The key, regardless of mic type, is getting a tight cup and driving the element as hard as it will go and also using dynamics to milk the subtleties available. If you're a purist-type or just one is is comfortable playing a bullet, good-stick with it. No right or wrong here. Like BBQ Bob says(and corrected me a bit), the guys of yesteryear used what they had-they weren't gearheads like we are. They grabbed those old station and p.a. mics and made 'em work. We have many, many more options available now. It's really a matter of personal preference, comfort and aesthetics.
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Crescent City Harmonica Club
Todd L Greene, Co-Founder
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 12:54 PM
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silpakorn
15 posts
Aug 05, 2010
12:59 PM
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Thanks for all kind comments ! and also for the information Bob. and @mr_so&so ; that make sense too ! Now it sounds like a vintage dynamic would work just fine for what I want and propably would be a better choice to start with. I kinda get the answer now, you guys really helped me out a lot : )
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barbequebob
1084 posts
Aug 05, 2010
1:02 PM
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Trust me, a lot of those old masters would be laughing themselves silly at all of the fuss that the gear heads make about the gear. Heck, in the times I saw Junior Wells, he always played thru the PA and PREFERRED to do so regardless. There are pictures of him playing AND singing thru a JT30 and that mic was the PA mic being used. When I hear all thesse players freak because if they don't have the right gear, they can't get "their tone," it gets hard NOT just start cracking up laughing in their faces after being around a lot of those old masters.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 1:11 PM
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toddlgreene
1626 posts
Aug 05, 2010
1:08 PM
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I still want one of Greg's wood mics-simply because they're gorgeous!
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Crescent City Harmonica Club
Todd L Greene, Co-Founder
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silpakorn
16 posts
Aug 05, 2010
1:14 PM
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@hvyj now that you've mentioned the ultimate 545 ( don't know how can I forgot to mention it - meant to talk about it too ).. How would you compare an ultimate to a vintage one ? I ask you this because lots people here are strongly recommended the ultimate but just today that I've found a clip on youtube that jonsparrow compared sm57(common one - not ultimate though ) to "the hog" and the hog is obviously way better. So what I wanna know is how much does the sound improved after greg ultimatized it ?
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 1:18 PM
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silpakorn
17 posts
Aug 05, 2010
1:16 PM
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@Todd, me too just for the same reason !
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ol'bosey
24 posts
Aug 05, 2010
2:45 PM
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The difference between bullets and dynamics is not that significant in terms of tone. Bullets have several different elements(crystal/ceramic/C.R./C.M) that all sound slightly different. I prefer crystals and ceramics,but it's mainley taste.
One thing to be said about most "stick" mics (especially Shure sm57's and 545's) is that they seem to be a bit louder,and they seem more forgiving to play and easier to get a good tone out of. In addition to that,57's and 545's are built like tanks. They can be dropped without too much concern,and will last forever. The opposite seems to be the case about Crystal elements. Very,very fragile,and quite moody. They sound different depending on temperature/humidity and are very sensitive to heat/cold/humidity...drop a crystal mic once and it might be done for good.
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 2:47 PM
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toddlgreene
1627 posts
Aug 05, 2010
2:52 PM
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ol bosey, been there, done that. I have/had a Ruskin bullet with a crystal in it. One day at practice about 10 years ago, I dropped it-not hard, either. All gone.
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Crescent City Harmonica Club
Todd L Greene, Co-Founder
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ol'bosey
25 posts
Aug 05, 2010
2:58 PM
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Plus it's hard to justify the price of a crystal element that sounds decent(the prices are nuts compared to 15-20 years ago)....it's like having a vintage telecaster that you're afraid to take out of the house. In My opinion all harp players would do well do have a durable dynamic mic, if for nothing else...just as a back up.
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rharley5652
212 posts
Aug 05, 2010
3:13 PM
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@ Silpaorn,. My 515 Revolution will soon be out,.,play er' lite & mellow or mean & nasty!!! An the price won't beak the bank. e-me for info <>
@ BlueMoose,...gonna have to put ya on my endorser's page,.Thanks !
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Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 4:39 PM
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hvyj
507 posts
Aug 05, 2010
3:15 PM
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@silpakorn: "Ultimatizing" has absolutely NO effect on the sound, except that you have an integral volume control. The body/barrel of the mic is lightened and shortened and a VC is added. The mic becomes much easier to handle and much more comfortable to hold but the mic element is unmodified and remains the same as it was before Gregg "ultimatizes" the mic.
Now, the VC can be used as a gain pad to lower the output of the mic to avoid feedback. So, for example, I can set the volume on my Super Reverb at 7 (which is a REALLY LOUD setting) to get tube compression and then roll off the VC on the mic down past halfway which gives me usable volume, no feedback but great tube amp tone. So, the integral VC is nice since it can really effect how you are able to use the mic.
The 545 is a little more "textured" sounding than an SM 57,and i think it sounds better than a 57 for harp. But both have proximity effect and both have mic elements that can be overdriven with a tight cup.
I don't know what "the Hog" is. Some of the vintage 545s are supposed to sound rawer or dirtier than current production 545s. I always found non-ultimatized 545s to be a little heavy and awkward to grip, so I never used one regularly for that reason. Although I've played through some vintage 545s, I've never owned one. Great sounding choice for a harp mic, though.
I can get enough dirt from my 545 Ultimate when i want it by using breath technique, proximity effect and a tight cup, so I'm very happy w/my 545 Ultimate. It can also give me a relatively clean tone, too but not as clean and smooth as a 57. I use an Audix Fireball V when the music requires a very clean, "unelectric" sound. But I use my 545 for everything else.
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 3:34 PM
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rharley5652
213 posts
Aug 05, 2010
3:21 PM
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The "Hog" is a Ron Sunshine mic,. Electro Voice EV 664
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Simply Unique Kustom Mic's By Rharley
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ol'bosey
26 posts
Aug 05, 2010
3:26 PM
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As hvyj said, the only downfall to a stock 545 pistol grip is that they can get really heavy by the 3rd set,I've had my hand cramp up somthing fierce at times. Plus if you sweat alot it makes matters even worse.
If I wasn't in finacial dire straights I would send mine to Greg...less weight,and a volume control is a huge plus as opposed to an on/off switch.
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hvyj
508 posts
Aug 05, 2010
3:26 PM
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OH...I've got an EV 664. GREAT sounding harp mic. Dirtier and fuller sounding than a 545. The 664 produces a very fat and nicely textured tone. Wonderful sounding harp mic. But it's a VERY heavy mic that is even more awkward to use than a stock 545. I've never gigged with mine--too damn big and heavy. But great sound!
I love older EV mics. IMHO, just about all of them sound decent for harp. They have a thick midrange response that may not sound good for vocals but really sounds good for harp. And they tend to have a round, fat tone.
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 6:49 PM
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Ray
255 posts
Aug 05, 2010
3:42 PM
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If your gonna talk stick mic's don't forget the Shure 533SA Great mic for harp.
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Greg Heumann
696 posts
Aug 05, 2010
6:04 PM
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All of the above is valid. Just last week I was helping Charlie with his Avenger so we had his and mine side by side with the A/B box. Then we decided to A/B mics into one amp and compared a low-Z Ultimate 57 to a green bullet with a dual impedance CM, and to one of my wood mics with a CR. We were both amazed at how similar the Ultimate 57 and green bullet sounded. The CR had more balls - but they make for expensive mics!
@Silpakorn - a new Ultimate 545 uses the currently available 545 replacement element from Shure, which is virtually indistinguishable from an SM57. It has just the tiniest bit more "color" when driven hard. An earlier 545 has more grit and power to its breakup. I do offer vintage 545 elements and transformers when I have them available, and many customers send me their vintage 545's to Ultimatize.
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/Greg
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Joe_L
511 posts
Aug 05, 2010
7:16 PM
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First, Greg recently ultimatized one of my mics. It sounds exactly the same as it did before. Thanks Greg! I'm still waiting for you to publish a press release. ;-)
Second, I grew up in Chicago and was around the scene quite a bit during the early and mid 80's. Damn near all of the older guys where playing through the PA using a vocal mic. In some of the clubs, they were using Shure Vocal Masters. Very few people were blowing through amps. The younger guys were using amps. The only guys that had been active in the 1950's using an amp was Little Willie Anderson. He used to play through a Super Reverb.
Louis Myers, James Cotton, Carey Bell and Junior Wells were playing through the PA. So were Little Arthur and a lot of the guys that were active in the 1950's.
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LittleJoeSamson
391 posts
Aug 06, 2010
6:06 AM
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The only reason the old blues guys used bullets is because they were cheap intercom mic's back then. Some times they were cheap because they could fit into a pocket and not be quite so obvious.
I've never much cared for bullets. They're heavy and unwieldy, and really don't make for a better sound , IMO. They do look sorta cool, but mainly just to men. Women think they look dorky.
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silpakorn
18 posts
Aug 06, 2010
7:42 AM
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well this probably one of the few threads in this forum that has opinions going in the same direction so far.. : )
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6SN7
77 posts
Aug 06, 2010
11:29 AM
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I started with a Shure ball mic, but I had to have a bullet, I mean, had to. It was difficult to find them in the late '70's, usually found in a old store that would have them getting moldy on the shelf. I found a store in Pawtucket,RI, with dozens of them! For 24 $ each! So I bought two and still have them to this day, but w/ CR/CM elements. Great thru amps, I can drop them and they work.
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Ev630
697 posts
Aug 06, 2010
11:59 AM
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I think all of you guys should definitely be playing stick mics.
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barbequebob
1092 posts
Aug 06, 2010
12:43 PM
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The reason why it was hard to find GB mics in the late 70's and early 80's was because Shure had discontinued them in 1977 and they had no idea harp players were using them and they thought of them at the time as heavily outdated PA and taxicab dispatching mics. Once they had enough mail hitting them left and right, then they reissued them with a much longer cord (the original was about 8 feet long MAX), and of course, they charged a much higher price for them.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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strawwoodclaw
89 posts
Aug 06, 2010
1:51 PM
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any HI Z high impedance mic will do, you will also need to get a amp that can handle a High Impedance mic either a modern harp amp or most vintage amps where made with a HIZ mic input . I love bullet mics but I recently got a Shure 533sa stick mic that is a good middle ground it has a huge output bass & clarity it sounds better than most mics I have tried. Bullet mics can have too much gritty output for some amps a dynamic stick mic can sound better
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Joe_L
513 posts
Aug 06, 2010
2:07 PM
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I really dig playing bullet mics. Even the newer ones work for me. If I couldn't get them anymore, I could switch to stick mics without an issue. I never had a problem with bullets. I like them.
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harpwrench
332 posts
Aug 06, 2010
2:07 PM
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I've had a few of the 533 and PE53 mics, and they sounded great for awhile. Then they'd develop ghost notes and become unusable on the higher notes- every one of them. They have a plastic diaphragm (so I was told by a mic tech) that deteriorates with age. Just so you know....
The EV RE10 is another good sounding one that I've played through a bunch. When used with an inline transformer, it's just as "Chicago" sounding as a good bullet mic.
But to the original poster, I prefer bullets because stick mics hurt my hands and wrists by the end of the night.
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DeakHarp
136 posts
Aug 06, 2010
2:21 PM
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I been playing through my CM 1949 Black tape in a JT30 body .. since 92 .. droped it 400 times ... kept in a hot car ... and in a freezing trunk .... Had to change the volume pot in it a few times .. from use .. But still is a Great mic .. never Fails ...
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Greg Heumann
698 posts
Aug 06, 2010
8:24 PM
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I still prefer a bullet when I want dirt in my tone - for comfort, cuppability and just because it makes people wonder what the f#$* you're doing. And I have yet to find a stick mic that can equal a good CR for tone. As I said - they come close, but every time I think I've found the stick mic to beat all stick mics (usually a vintage 545) (OR other vintage mics in general) I A/B it with a good CR using an A/B switch. This is the ONLY way, at least for me, that I can form a valid, rational, objective, ego-free opinion - and so far a CR Bullet wins every time.
It is natural for humans to hear "different" and equate it to "good" or even "better". You have to go back and forth, back and forth quickly, using the same harp, the same licks and the same amp to truly compare mics.
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/Greg
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silpakorn
19 posts
Aug 06, 2010
9:16 PM
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I'm a classical violinist and my teacher in uni was a discipline guy - a serious musician. I remember he surprised me one time when I was going to buy a new violin and asked him for an advice, he said well,
First of all, you have to like the look of it ! you don't want to marry an ugly woman that you don't even wanna look at her face. It means you have to be pleased by its look everytime you see it, never get bored of it and pround to own it. It'll simply make you grab the instrument more often and practice with passion !
Second, touch it - feel it in your hands, it suppossed to feel comfortable and make you wanna play it more and more not to put it down.
by the first and second he didn't mentioned anything about the quality, sound, the luthier and a certificate and the price. He said that's ofcourse important but as a musician nobody will for get to consider the quality, sound or certificate so that comes the last !
you just have to choose an instrument as if it's a girl that's going to be your girlfriend.
How do you guys like that ?
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Greg Heumann
700 posts
Aug 06, 2010
10:31 PM
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I like it. Says everyone should have a BlowsMeAway wood mic!
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/Greg
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Ev630
698 posts
Aug 06, 2010
10:56 PM
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I agree with Greg. I've never heard a stick mic that can match a great CR. My No.1 CR is pure magic to my ears.
But I think you guys should all use stick mics.
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nacoran
2435 posts
Aug 06, 2010
11:26 PM
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Silpakorn, I like that! I think personally I've gone more for comfort over looks. I have mostly plastic combed harps. I am still using a cheap bargain bin microphone or the house mic. My mic isn't particularly good looking (in fact it has duct tape on it to hold the chord on) or comfortable.
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Nate
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ol'bosey
27 posts
Aug 06, 2010
11:44 PM
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I kind of equate the tone of 57's-545's-or most dynamic "stick" mics to a humbucker in terms of tone...kind of a consistant,predictable, almost buzzy "break up" in gain/distortion when driven hard. Whereas a crystal/ceramic/CR-CM is more like a P90 single coil...more of a jagged or inconsistant break up when driven(much more pleasing to My ears for traditional stuff). I prefer the latter,but I still feel there is something about a dynamic mic that is more forgiving to play. I've never been able to put my finger on it,or I could just be full of it...but that's my 2 cents.
Last Edited by on Aug 06, 2010 11:49 PM
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Joe_L
515 posts
Aug 07, 2010
12:17 AM
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My favorite bullet is a JT30 with a ceramic element. My second favorite is a JT30 that Greg fixed up with Shure CM element.
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ol'bosey
28 posts
Aug 07, 2010
12:28 AM
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@ Joe L: ssshhh. Keep the ceramic elements on the "downlow". That's My personal fave as well.
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N.O.D.
77 posts
Aug 07, 2010
4:43 AM
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Hi Bro's i got a few Bullets in my Gun belt,
and wanted to check out a Shure Stick Mic i won a cheap Spher-O-Dyne 533-SA in Ebayland,
I like it's tone sounds great through my Harp Gear-2
gets nice and dirty when cupped tight:)
and i can use hand effects for Delts Blues quite well get a nice Hand Wha Wha Happening my Bro on Dobro Slide Likes it thats a Big Pluss:)
but it's a Heavy sucker it could be 1 or more inches shorter for comfort
so my question has the SM57 and 545 got as good as tone as the Spher-O-Dyne or better i'm Thinking of Sussing them out:)
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Like My Little custom on the Grill:)
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LittleJoeSamson
392 posts
Aug 07, 2010
6:39 AM
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There are so many variables, that it is always subjective about discussing the plusses and minuses of different components. One mic might sound great with one rig, and not so good with another.
With that caveat...we are talking about sound, and that means frequencies. Some sound better than others, but again...it is a metter of taste.
The thing to examine with any mic is the frequency response. What makes the GB's and other bullet mic's favorable to many harper's is that they accentuate more of the lo-end waves than other dynamic mic's. Their peak response is under 5K Hz...eliminating most hi frequencies. This is why they make lousy vocal mic's...or sound raspy and echo-ey.
To many, this is a desired effect. It also can make a not-so-good player sound better...giving them a fatter tone by rounding out the shrill hi's that are displeasing to many an ear.
Most stick mic's will capture more of the hi-end...even amplify them. The more expensive vocal mic's are just way too gainey for harp use, and don't like cupping around the element. ( I tried a friends Beta-58 once, and it sounded terrible. ).
Another thing to consider is proximity effect...how the bass gets bigger with closeness.
Some have it, others don't or have too much.
BUT, as has been commented here, the main thing is to achieve the sound and tone YOU like, and the audience agrees with.
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Greg Heumann
702 posts
Aug 07, 2010
7:52 AM
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If you like the 533 you probably won't like the 57. And which you like depends not only on personal taste but on your tone and cupping ability (I know I sound like a broken record but it ain't just about sealing the rear of the harp to the mic). For me, the 533 was attractive early on because it simply has no high frequency response and made me sound better. Now, it is way too muddy. By contrast when I first tried a 57 I thought it was overly bright. Now they sound great to me.
It DOES depend on the amp as well.
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/Greg
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Cisco
156 posts
Aug 07, 2010
8:04 AM
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I have to agree with Greg, nothing can match a bullet with a CR element to get that dirty tone along with comfort in cupping (I have long fingers)!!
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