The Beatles27
7 posts
Aug 07, 2010
1:48 PM
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I have a new green bullet. Sounds great to me, but feedsback too easily. Is there a faily inexpensive way to solve this?
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gene
532 posts
Aug 07, 2010
1:56 PM
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I have one mic (Audix Fireball V) and have never played outside of my bedroom, so I'm just asking:
If you have a stick mic but want to eliminate the high end frequencies, why not just turn the treble down on the amp. What's the difference? And as far as the dirty sound: How 'bout turning up the gain?
I've asked this several times and never got an answer. Somebody? Please! The curiosity is killing me.
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2010 1:58 PM
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hvyj
512 posts
Aug 07, 2010
3:10 PM
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@gene: In my experience, different mics have different output characteristics, so just playing with tone controls and gain settings won't completely shape the tone of one mic to mimic the sound you might be able to get from another mic. But, that having been said, yes, within limits, increasing gain, pumping the midrange and rolling off the highs will make any mic sound dirtier. This is how one can go about adjusting the channel controls on a PA board if one wants a hotter/dirtier tone when playing harp through a stick mic into the PA.
Generally speaking, a higher gain setting in relation to the volume setting produces more overdrive and dirt and a higher volume setting in relation to the gain setting is cleaner. How you cup the mic also makes a big difference.
Your Audix is a very clean, very transparent mic. It has no proximity effect and it has very high SPL so although tight cupping may darken the tone somewhat, you won't be able to overdrive the mic element with a tight cup. Very resposive mic though. I carry an Audix Fireball V and I use it in situations where my 545 Ultimate sounds too "electric."
Utimately it all comes down to HOW a player WANTS to sound. If a player likes a distorted tone, bullets may be more appealing. Personally, I think I lose articulation playing through most bullets and I don't think think I can get as wide a variety of sounds from a bullet as I can from a harp friendly stick mic. So, I don't find most bullets to be particualrly versitile.
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gene
533 posts
Aug 07, 2010
3:31 PM
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Thank you, hvyj.
I don't believe there is a such thing as a tight cup on the Audix Fireball because it has a screen on the bottom half of the ball as well as the top. But if you have hands the size of Andre the Giant's, you'd have no problem with that.
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hvyj
513 posts
Aug 07, 2010
4:34 PM
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@gene: Well, it's not as big as a bullet. I am able to tight cup my Fireball easier than I can tight cup a bullet. I really like the way a Fireball sounds and responds when it is tightly cupped. The tone gets a little darker and a little "rounder."
Btw, I find the tone of the Fireball to be very bright, so I always roll off the treble when I use mine.
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gene
534 posts
Aug 07, 2010
5:03 PM
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Hmm...
I'll have to work on that cup.
But wait...
To get a seal, don't you have to put the whole ball in your hand because of that all-around screen?
Last Edited by on Aug 07, 2010 5:04 PM
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9000
12 posts
Aug 07, 2010
7:57 PM
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There are times when I think I might like to use a stick mic but I've never found on as hot as my good CR/CMs. Almost anything will sound ok tbrough a small amps but on bigger amps I've found that it takes a very hot element to really make the notes jump out with the responsiveness that I want.
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LittleJoeSamson
393 posts
Aug 07, 2010
8:45 PM
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Something I have done with ball or stick mic's to fatten up the tone is to make an artificial cup.
I find some tubular material...PVC pipe, mushroom stems & pieces cans, plumbing elbows,... whatever fits the diameter of the mic. Resonance of different materials will change the tone.
I'm all for recycling and GREEN solutions, so one thing might sound odd: I take old TP tubes, cut them to length, and wrap with electrical tape. They make fine mic resonators that fit most ball mic's.
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boris_plotnikov
194 posts
Aug 07, 2010
10:38 PM
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OT: hvyj
We are have the same approach with you I see. I use SM57 for rock like tone, Fireball for jazz, Carbon Copy, octaver and phaser, I'm interesting in what do you play.
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Greg Heumann
703 posts
Aug 07, 2010
11:07 PM
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@Gene - I agree with hvyj - even with a good cup, the Fireball has such high headroom that it just keeps putting out clean tone. When you cup an SM57, 545, JT30 o other Bullet you drive the mic beyond its ability to respond cleanly and it sends nice distorted signal to your amp, which in turn will add all kinds of harmonic distortion.
And turning down the treble cuts too much of the "good" edge of your playing. It just isn't the same thing.
If you got a lot of feedback with your bullet, the culprit was probably too much gain the amp, or if you were on stage and your amp was mic'd, possibly too much signal in the monitors.
I've written a fair bit about mics and amps in a document you can download here: All About Harmonica Mics, and Then Some"
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/Greg
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gene
535 posts
Aug 08, 2010
12:57 AM
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"...And turning down the treble cuts too much of the "good" edge of your playing...."
I guess I can see that. Maybe with the bullet, some of the high end is still there...but distorted.(?)
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hvyj
515 posts
Aug 08, 2010
5:45 AM
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@9000: You know, a Fireball actually has pretty "hot" output. It's very clean and has very high feedback threshold, but it is very sensitive and responsive with a strong output.
OT@boris: My approach has always been not to play the harmonica like it is a harmonica. As you may be aware, I play multiple positions, but I don't OB. I play blues, R&B, funk, reggae, a limited amount of jazz and some rock. I don't like playing any country music, but the band I am in now occasionally plays some Western swing, which is actually pretty cool.
I'm pretty comfortable playing in minor keys, and I play minor key material quite a bit. I always play standard Richter tuned diatonics in ET and I don't play chrom (at least not well enough to play one when I perform). I've heard your stuff and I admire your playing great deal.
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MP
753 posts
Aug 08, 2010
11:42 AM
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my go to mic is an ASTATIC "BISCUIT". better than bullets and sticks for comfort.
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MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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boris_plotnikov
197 posts
Aug 08, 2010
11:46 AM
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hvyj
Anyway full cupped Fireball has noticeably less output than completely cupped SM57.
Glad you like my playing (((:
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barbequebob
1094 posts
Aug 08, 2010
12:23 PM
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As far as turning down the treble cutting the edge, it depends on both the amp as well as the mic because some amps, like some mics tend to favor certain frequencies more than others plus the circuitry from amp to amp is often quite different and so by using such a blank statement across the board is a flat out mistake.
For me, the bullet mics are more comfortable and I can gt a much larger resonating cavity in my hands than with a stick or ball mic, but the stick mic may be a better option for those with extremely small hands and so that's another one size fits all myth that needs to get exploded.
Bullet mics have an omni directional puckup pattern, that is 180 degrees, and most stick/ball mics have a cardioid or heart shaped pickup pattern and in order to get that, the output does have to be a bit lower than an omni directional pickup pattern.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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MP
754 posts
Aug 08, 2010
5:28 PM
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i don't understand the use of 57s for harp.
they are designed for sound reinforcement,ie; you mic amps with 'em. along with the 58,they are still the standard with the biggest sound companys is the US.
i think they are too thin sounding. of course if you add a bunch of pedals this changes the game and is what most players of this mic do.
the astatic biscuit is the perfect harp mic.
it's small, durable, looks hip(mine has a chrome grille and paint that changes colors) and you can load it with a CM,CR, ceramic, or a crystal, as that's what they came with.
if you need a volume control just buy an inline job from gregg.
doesn't anybody else around here favor the biscuit?
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MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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Joe_L
522 posts
Aug 08, 2010
6:01 PM
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I like the biscuit and the bullets. I dont mind the stick mics. They tend to be more expensive.
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MP
755 posts
Aug 08, 2010
6:35 PM
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thanks joe, i feel vindicated.
i take a 57 along when i gig if i need to mic the amp and a 58 for vocals and acoustic playing.
i use a biscuit or a 200 or a JT-30 for guts and grit.
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MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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LittleJoeSamson
395 posts
Aug 08, 2010
8:45 PM
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I compared my early Blues Blaster today, using the line transformer with XLR, played thru Blanche...the Ampeg Rocket. Sounded the best I can remember; but the Radio Shack karaoke mic with the 20 foot cheater cord sounded better.
I'd like to try a biscuit, as other harpers say they are sweet.
I have a neat brushed aluminum shell and grille that looks like a Richard Wright design...but it needs the right guts. Don't know the make, but very cuppable.
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Joe_L
523 posts
Aug 08, 2010
9:07 PM
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I usually have an SM57, an impedance transformer, and a XLR cable in a small bag in the car.
You never know when it'll come in handy. It's proven to be a lifesaver. I think of it as a Swiss Army knife. It's not the perfect tool, but it's worth owning one. I think everyone should own one for the following reasons:
1. I've plugged it into the PA and used it for vocals when the normal house mic disappeared. (It was at a friend's gig. He was appreciative as he sang the first set through a JT30 plugged into a Sonny Jr Cruncher.)
2. I've plugged it into an amp when I dropped and dented the connector on the harp mic. (The impedance transformer proved very handy.)
3. I've plugged it into the PA and used it to mic an amp. (The band was getting loud.)
4. I've plugged it into the PA and blew harp through it when I was sitting in with a buddy's band. (I enjoy playing Blues through a vocal mic/PA. It's a nice test of one's tone.)
You never know when a Shure SM57 will come in handy.
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LittleJoeSamson
396 posts
Aug 08, 2010
9:31 PM
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"You never know when a Shure SM57 will come in handy."
Joe_L
Agreed, but I prefer the Audix i5.
Cheaper than a SM57, better with vocals, GREAT for cab micing; and a better harp mic than a 57.
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MP
757 posts
Aug 08, 2010
9:35 PM
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ditto on that joe. i also keep a transformer handy.
instead of a fancy harp case i use a big brief case that looks like it was a sample case for some fuller brush man type dude. it's got all kinds of mics, XLR and 1/4" cables,delay pedal,adapters, mic clips, tools, tape,swiss knife, etc..aside from chromatics and diatonics. you never know when something is gonna go wrong. i've even got guitar picks.
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MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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Joe_L
527 posts
Aug 08, 2010
9:54 PM
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If I come across an i5 for a good price, I'll try one.
MP - I carry my extra cables, mics and junk in an old laptop bag. I have a bunch of those bags laying around and they are useful. They are spacious and nicely padded.
My only concern is that some knucklehead might think it's a computer and break into the car. So, I try to hide it.
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Kingley
1353 posts
Aug 08, 2010
10:02 PM
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If I'm at a jam session or a sit-in, then I'll happily use whatever mic is available and make it work for me. If it's my own gear then I prefer to use a bullet mic or a biscuit mic, as I find they give a better sound and are easier to cup.
I also agree with the comments made by Joe L on the SM57. I usually carry a Shure 545SD wired to Lo-Z for those same reasons.
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Paul "Kingley" Routledge
My YouTube Page
Last Edited by on Aug 08, 2010 10:03 PM
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N.O.D.
81 posts
Aug 08, 2010
10:22 PM
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Hi Bro's at the moment the only time i get to mic up is at Home:(
as Kingley mentions the only Mic's i ever get to use are the house mics at my jam nights strait through the PA, i guess they aren't top quality mics
But I always get compliments on my tone and Vibrato:)
so when it boils right down to the crunch should we be playing through clean mics and letting our true tone be heard instead of a distorted amped tone?
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Cheers Bro's
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Greg Heumann
704 posts
Aug 08, 2010
11:52 PM
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@barbecuebob re "Bullet mics have an omni directional puckup pattern, that is 180 degrees, and most stick/ball mics have a cardioid or heart shaped pickup pattern and in order to get that, the output does have to be a bit lower than an omni directional pickup pattern."
Once you hand hold a mic, any directional characteristics go out the window. That goes for bullets and sticks. The directional characteristics are only valid if the mic is in free air.
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/Greg
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Joe_L
529 posts
Aug 09, 2010
8:00 AM
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NOD - You've gotta decide on how you want to sound. Some guys really dig overly overdriven tones; other guys hate it.
A well known harp playing friend of mine used to own an amp that people think is the holy grail of big harmonica amplifiers. That amp is big, loud and known for it's overdriven sound. When he played through it, everyone loved his sound. He didn't dig it. It was far too distorted for him. He really digs a cleaner sound. It's a highly personal thing.
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5F6H
269 posts
Aug 09, 2010
8:22 AM
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NOD - "so when it boils right down to the crunch should we be playing through clean mics and letting our true tone be heard instead of a distorted amped tone?"
If you're playing through an amp that distorts, it will distort with a Hi-Z mic (or Lo-Z with a transformer) if you push it enough...it will just happen at a different point on the volume control.
Don't forget that guitar amps (& the basis for most harp amps) have circuits that are expecting to see a few hundred millivolts of signal & "harp" mics can deliver several whole volts...so unless that amp's first stage is designed to run real clean (not easy given the circumstances) there will usually be some distortion of some kind...though a distorted but "scooped mid" tone gives the impression of being "cleaner", or at least better fidelity, than a "heavy mid", grindy type tone.
As to "true tone"...so long as your recogniseable tone comes through and is not completely masked, then it's up to you how much distortion you feel is appropriate...some guys just want/need a little, some guys want a lot. I know guys who will get a heavy distorted sound out of a PA & lo-z mic, whilst others will struggle with a small tube amp..it's horses for courses.
You will find that guys who have a strong, identifiable sound, will pull that sound out of whatever gear they are given to a greater degree, whether it be a 5W champ, a Twin Reverb, or a PA. I know & know of guys who may have used 2 or 3 different types of amp on one album & it's not obvious which was which at playback.
In short (probably should have started with this) the mic should be considered as a link in the chain, complimented by the amp, rather than as a separate entity from it.
As Greg states, a mic's performance (SPL - signal it can handle before distortion) is a free air rating...cup it up tight to a harp and everything changes.
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528hemi
159 posts
Aug 09, 2010
5:24 PM
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I currently own about 10 mics...
You need to match your mic to your amp. You cant just say a Shure bullet is better the na EV or 533 or SM57.
There is alot to consider and alot of tweaking you can do to the amp (preamp tube) for a desired sound.
Some CR's/Cms are hotter then others as well.
There is no one Mic you can say is better playing through multiple amps. Again the amp will make a big difference in the overall sound you are trying to acheive and your own playing style/technique. To me a Hot CR/CM sounds liek crap through a dirty amp and I tend to like a cleaner mic for that type of amp.
528hemi
Last Edited by on Aug 09, 2010 5:25 PM
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